Hypothetical question

[Bilo]

I tried to tell them, Ren, I did. Do note just how little the quality of Scottish football is actually discussed, it's a meta-discussion about everything else. Credit to Hugh though, that's how you avoid being proven wrong when you're wrong: discuss something else. Such as attendances, Kazakhstan and Jamie Vardy being rejected by Wednesday at 16.

 

[St. Juste]

Just because they're larger doesn't mean their league should be better. By that logic, the Chinese and Indian leagues are the best in the world.

Sigh, not this logic again. But nevertheless, those nations don't compete in Europe, so are not being counted.

Why don't you be very specific and tell us exactly which national leagues Scottish football should be comparing ourselves with and why?

I tried to tell them, Ren, I did. Do note just how little the quality of Scottish football is actually discussed, it's a meta-discussion about everything else. Credit to Hugh though, that's how you avoid being proven wrong when you're wrong: discuss something else. Such as attendances, Kazakhstan and Jamie Vardy being rejected by Wednesday at 16.

I'm more than happy to have in depth discussions of Scottish football - most people are completely failing in this respect because they don't watch Scottish football. They are instead relying on prejudice rather than evidence - and I'm not wasting my time, education no matter how difficult can never be considered a waste.

As for empirical evidence, the attendances in Scottish football, and how we compare to other European Leagues, is absolutely relevant to the relative quality of the league. I'm not sure what you're struggling with here.

The Vardy example was merely to disprove the hypothesis that because player x failed at club y he is rubbish - it's not even the best example, I like Dalglish failing at West Ham more. It was a ludicrous point, and Jamie Vardy (and many others) disprove it quite comprehensively.

 

[epic73]

Sigh, not this logic again.

That's YOUR logic. You implied that being better than Kazakhstan shows that the Scottish league was good because Kazakhstan has a higher population.

 

[Leo]

This is a good example of the Scottish self loathing I referred to earlier.

Still, to be fair, recent years have seen the worst Rangers side possibly ever. Only some of the 70s debacles come close, no wonder they are deeply depressed / embarrassed at the state of their football currently. I would be if I was a Rangers fan.

Once again as is your want, you read a post and jump to some self indulgent idiotic conclusion. 'Scottish self loathing' ?...... If the football up here was so great then I wouldn't have had to describe it as I did would I. I give an honest opinion but it doesn't suit you as you have been pathetically trying to talk the Scottish game up over the past (seems like hunners) 7 or so pages. Keep quoting your stats and your 'empirical' evidence all you want, it does you no good. The bottom line is, compared to England's PL our Premiership in the main is truly awful.

I did mention the lack of quality shown by Rangers perhaps you missed it....you are prone such an action when it suits.....

 

[Leo]

Can't figure out if you're all wasting St. Juste's time or if he's wasting your time?

bit of both I suspect....it's just that he rambles about points that matter not a jot more than anyone else.

 

[epic73]

Well, now Celtic have a chance to prove once and for all that Scotland > Kazakhstan.

 

[Renegade]

I think by almost anyone's measurement, a 39 year old man extolling the virtues of Scottish football in lengthy online debate vs people taking the piss (including a 14 year old) is wasting his own time. Unless he himself is also taking the piss and enjoys getting a rise out of his opponents, thus turning the pisstake on its head. Otherwise, it's not a particularly interesting or educational hypothetical. I am enjoying the nods to empiricism though tbf, maybe this is a philosophy lesson under the guise of nonsensical football debate.

 

[epic73]

13 year old*

 

[St. Juste]

That's YOUR logic. You implied that being better than Kazakhstan shows that the Scottish league was good because Kazakhstan has a higher population.

Well, yes, higher population in a footballing country means more fans and more people watching the game.

India, which does not play football to any great extent, wouldn't really qualify. China is making a concerted effort to improve their league.

Within Europe population is an excellent measure as nearly all nations have football as their number 1 sport. Hence comparing Scotland to every other nation in Europe through our coefficient - which includes Kazakhstan.

Who knows why you're focusing on it.

Once again as is your want, you read a post and jump to some self indulgent idiotic conclusion. 'Scottish self loathing' ?...... If the football up here was so great then I wouldn't have had to describe it as I did would I. I give an honest opinion but it doesn't suit you as you have been pathetically trying to talk the Scottish game up over the past (seems like hunners) 7 or so pages. Keep quoting your stats and your 'empirical' evidence all you want, it does you no good. The bottom line is, compared to England's PL our Premiership in the main is truly awful.

I did mention the lack of quality shown by Rangers perhaps you missed it....you are prone such an action when it suits.....

Yes, so is every other league outside the 'top 5'. It's hardly a failing of Scottish football, just the new reality in which we operate in.

Comparing us to other leagues around Europe we are not "awful" at all rather punching slightly above our weight.

Also, I agreed with you about how terrible Rangers were / are. They have a bit chip on their shoulder and it's very funny to watch. When they were rightly relegated to the 4th tier many of their fans thought Scottish football would go through an "Armageddon" but home attendances weren't affected in the slightest. Sore one.

Well, now Celtic have a chance to prove once and for all that Scotland > Kazakhstan.

Not really, Celtic could lose the tie and Scotland could still attain a higher coefficient ranking than Kazakhstan.

I think by almost anyone's measurement, a 39 year old man extolling the virtues of Scottish football in lengthy online debate vs people taking the piss (including a 14 year old) is wasting his own time. Unless he himself is also taking the piss and enjoys getting a rise out of his opponents, thus turning the pisstake on its head. Otherwise, it's not a particularly interesting or educational hypothetical. I am enjoying the nods to empiricism though tbf, maybe this is a philosophy lesson under the guise of nonsensical football debate.

I'm not 39 years old, but yes, it's become increasingly him (and others) are just kids.

Despite their demurring it is still important to educate them on how to appropriately consider the relative strength of different leagues. It's be a complete waste if what they come out with is "Scott Sinclair lol".

Whatever their stance on this debate, it's important to only form your views following a consideration of the evidence. Holding onto prejudice in the face of conflicting evidence is just cognitive dissonance.

 

[Stevencc]

I'm more than happy to have in depth discussions of Scottish football - most people are completely failing in this respect because they don't watch Scottish football. They are instead relying on prejudice rather than evidence - and I'm not wasting my time, education no matter how difficult can never be considered a waste.

As for empirical evidence, the attendances in Scottish football, and how we compare to other European Leagues, is absolutely relevant to the relative quality of the league. I'm not sure what you're struggling with here.

Point 1 - We can't talk about the quality of Scottish football here because no one watches it.

Point 2 - Scottish football is objectively of a high quality because people in Scotland watch it.

Conclusion - Braveheart is the greatest film ever made.

 

[HtfcWArrior]

Can't figure out if you're all wasting St. Juste's time or if he's wasting your time?

A bit of both I think

 

[HtfcWArrior]

Well, yes, higher population in a footballing country means more fans and more people watching the game.

India, which does not play football to any great extent, wouldn't really qualify. China is making a concerted effort to improve their league.

Within Europe population is an excellent measure as nearly all nations have football as their number 1 sport. Hence comparing Scotland to every other nation in Europe through our coefficient - which includes Kazakhstan.

Who knows why you're focusing on it.

Your the one who frigging started this shit about Kazakhstan and started going off in tangents about it...

 

[Renegade]

13 year old*

Dude, it feels like you've been 13 for about 4 years. I'm on to you young man.

 

[Leo]

1) Yes, so is every other league outside the 'top 5'. It's hardly a failing of Scottish football, just the new reality in which we operate in.

2) Comparing us to other leagues around Europe we are not "awful" at all rather punching slightly above our weight.

3) Also, I agreed with you about how terrible Rangers were / are. They have a bit chip on their shoulder and it's very funny to watch. When they were rightly relegated to the 4th tier many of their fans thought Scottish football would go through an "Armageddon" but home attendances weren't affected in the slightest. Sore one.

1) Glad you agree with me. New reality ?.........Oh please, stop embarrassing yourself.

2) Which other leagues are you referring to...surely not Spain, Italy, Germany, France? Oh wait....I know....Kazakhstan. Tell me, how many people that you know even mention Kazakhstan, know anything about the football there, even give a fuck about Kazakhstan football....anything?

3) As for your assertion that Gers fans thought Scottish football would go through an 'Armageddon'....you really are showing yourself up. These comments were few and far between and related to comments on football forums and idiotic 'phone ins'. Unless of course you have been conversing with the majority of Rangers fans.

 

[Leo]

Point 1 - We can't talk about the quality of Scottish football here because no one watches it......

Point 2 - Scottish football is objectively of a high quality because people in Scotland watch it......

Conclusion - Braveheart is the greatest film ever made.......

 

[Leo]

I think by almost anyone's measurement, a 39 year old man extolling the virtues of Scottish football in lengthy online debate vs people taking the piss (including a 14 year old) is wasting his own time. Unless he himself is also taking the piss and enjoys getting a rise out of his opponents, thus turning the pisstake on its head. Otherwise, it's not a particularly interesting or educational hypothetical. I am enjoying the nods to empiricism though tbf, maybe this is a philosophy lesson under the guise of nonsensical football debate.

I once referred to him as Dr Freud due to his elongated wording of simple statements....I was of course taking the piss.

 

[St. Juste]

Point 1 - We can't talk about the quality of Scottish football here because no one watches it.

Point 2 - Scottish football is objectively of a high quality because people in Scotland watch it.

Conclusion - Braveheart is the greatest film ever made.

I'm happy to stand corrected, but most people on this thread admit that whilst they have an opinion on the quality of Scottish football, they haven't actually seen it.

And yes, attendances was one of the specific facts I raised to demonstrate Scottish football wasn't objectively terrible, or declining.

I don't really think Braveheart is that watched in Scotland, ti's a poor movie riddled with historical inaccuracies.

Your the one who frigging started this shit about Kazakhstan and started going off in tangents about it...

Kazakhstan was one of about 5 countries I compared Scotland to in that post, I have no idea why people have singled it out.

Scotland having a higher coefficient than the much larger Kazakhstan is absolutely relevant.

1) Glad you agree with me. New reality ?.........Oh please, stop embarrassing yourself.

2) Which other leagues are you referring to...surely not Spain, Italy, Germany, France? Oh wait....I know....Kazakhstan. Tell me, how many people that you know even mention Kazakhstan, know anything about the football there, even give a fuck about Kazakhstan football....anything?

3) As for your assertion that Gers fans thought Scottish football would go through an 'Armageddon'....you really are showing yourself up. These comments were few and far between and related to comments on football forums and idiotic 'phone ins'. Unless of course you have been conversing with the majority of Rangers fans.

1) In the past Scottish teams, Dutch teams, Portuguese teams, Romanian teams etc. have won the Champions League. That will never happen again because of the revenue concentration in the big 5 leagues, which has greatly accelerated recently. I don't know what to say other than it is a well known footballing phenomenon that is widely discussed - have you genuinely never heard of it?

2) No, why would you compare the SPFL to La Liga or the Bundesliga? It's a nonsensical comparison, we would never reach the heights of those leagues ever again. No matter what we do. Neither will the Eredivise. Neither will the Brazilian league. What nations, if not Kazakhstan, why would compare Scotland to? As I said, I compared it to many. Who knows why people are focusing on Kazakhstan, the comparison is as valid as it ever has been.

3) Haha, excellent. I'll leave people to google Scottish Football Armageddon and see for themselves.

I once referred to him as Dr Freud due to his elongated wording of simple statements....I was of course taking the piss.

Dr. Freuds first language was German, he wasn't even a known linguist.

Quite an odd example.

 

[SALTIRE]

Feel like closing this thread, its like a descent into madness trying to read through half of it.

 

[G.B]

stop flexing salty mate

 

[Leo]

1) In the past Scottish teams, Dutch teams, Portuguese teams, Romanian teams etc. have won the Champions League. That will never happen again because of the revenue concentration in the big 5 leagues, which has greatly accelerated recently. I don't know what to say other than it is a well known footballing phenomenon that is widely discussed - have you genuinely never heard of it?

2) No, why would you compare the SPFL to La Liga or the Bundesliga? It's a nonsensical comparison, we would never reach the heights of those leagues ever again. No matter what we do. Neither will the Eredivise. Neither will the Brazilian league. What nations, if not Kazakhstan, why would compare Scotland to? As I said, I compared it to many. Who knows why people are focusing on Kazakhstan, the comparison is as valid as it ever has been.

3) Haha, excellent. I'll leave people to google Scottish Football Armageddon and see for themselves.

1) Read my post again then come back with a sensible answer which is actually relevant.
2) Why would I compare ? Well perhaps because you stated..."Comparing us to other leagues around Europe we are not "awful" at all rather punching slightly above our weight."....or perhaps I should have opted for leagues which fit in with your narrow mindedness? So do tell us...who is it that is actually focussing on Kazakhstan apart from yourself?
3) Yes, let's.

 

[Leo]

Dr. Freuds first language was German, he wasn't even a known linguist.

Quite an odd example.

He wasn't even a cunning linguist like yourself.....such is your way with words.

Odd example ?..........How very apt....

 

[Leo]

Feel like closing this thread, its like a descent into madness trying to read through half of it.

You surely have a couple of hours spare mate?

 

[Nilsson]

Your contributions to the thread can be summarised as come in, speak nonsense, disappear only to return again a few pages later with yet more nonsense.

You're not enough consistent enough to defend your previous nonsense.

I stopped replying to you as we were beginning to repeat ourselves and clearly not going to find any common ground.

I believe it's a sign of how far Scottish football has fallen that a player like Scott Sinclair could go over there and score 20+ goals and be considered the standout player in the league. You believe it's completely normal and just a case of Sinclair recapturing his form of that one half decent season he had at Swansea 5/6 years ago.

Who knows, maybe you're right and I'm wrong, stranger things have happened, we frequent a forum in which a certified madman has the authority to close threads he deems not worthy!

 

[Stevencc]

What's really mad is that that last line doesn't necessarily have to mean Salty.

 

[St. Juste]

1) Read my post again then come back with a sensible answer which is actually relevant.
2) Why would I compare ? Well perhaps because you stated..."Comparing us to other leagues around Europe we are not "awful" at all rather punching slightly above our weight."....or perhaps I should have opted for leagues which fit in with your narrow mindedness? So do tell us...who is it that is actually focussing on Kazakhstan apart from yourself?
3) Yes, let's.

Read your post again? This is what you said:

"1) Glad you agree with me. New reality ?.........Oh please, stop embarrassing yourself."

So, in absence of you saying anything constructive, I gave an explanation as to what I meant by new reality. Which you have....ignored I guess? I don't know what more I could do, I gave the post more credence that it probably deserved.

2) The people focusing on Kazakhstan, other than myself, are those that keep asking me questions about it. I didn't compare Scotland to Kazakhstan in isolation, it was one of several nations I compared Scotland to in the coefficient. None others have been discussed. I don't know why. The whole point of looking at the coefficient is that you can't be narrow minded, you can't be prejudiced, it is an objective view of every league. So, why don't I ask again - exactly which nation should Scotland be compared to? Be specific now.

I stopped replying to you as we were beginning to repeat ourselves and clearly not going to find any common ground.

I believe it's a sign of how far Scottish football has fallen that a player like Scott Sinclair could go over there and score 20+ goals and be considered the standout player in the league. You believe it's completely normal and just a case of Sinclair recapturing his form of that one half decent season he had at Swansea 5/6 years ago.

Who knows, maybe you're right and I'm wrong, stranger things have happened, we frequent a forum in which a certified madman has the authority to close threads he deems not worthy!

It could be down to innumerable variables, that's why as a single measure it's quite weak.

Charlie Adam was a complete failure at Rangers before being nominated for the POTY award in England. Ditto Riyad Mahrez failing a trial at St. Mirren and then winning POTY in England.

By looking at one factor, rather than a multitude, you can come back with some pretty warped conclusions.

But, as I've already said, even if the Scott Sinclair comparison was correct, I don't think it would really matter. The SPFL is far below the EPL, that is beyond doubt. Scott Sinclair doing well here doesn't affect how we are judged relative to, say, leagues in Croatia or Finland.

 

[JimJams]

Mahrez leaving during his trial because he didn't like the weather does not make him a failure at St Mirren. Using examples like this only weakens your argument because they are so incredbily flawed. There are other far better examples you could use, so why use one that makes you look desperate?
St Mirren didn't reject Mahrez, he left (fled) because he didn't like the cold.
""It went well. I played four friendlies and I scored seven goals. I killed them."
What a fucking shit example.

 

[epic73]

Dude, it feels like you've been 13 for about 4 years. I'm on to you young man.

November 2003: born age 0
August 2015: joined 1ff age 11
November 2015: turned 12
November 2016: turned 13

I have no idea why people have singled it out.

Because you're comparing your supposedly high quality Scottish league with the league in Kazakhstan, which is absolutely, horrendously, crap.

 

[HtfcWArrior]

Nobody is getting anywhere with this argument st Juste quotes what they said and starts talking absolute bollocks about it and then gives some shit examples to try and back his answer up... Your fighting a lost battle mate

 

[Leo]

Read your post again? This is what you said:

"1) Glad you agree with me. New reality ?.........Oh please, stop embarrassing yourself."

So, in absence of you saying anything constructive, I gave an explanation as to what I meant by new reality. Which you have....ignored I guess? I don't know what more I could do, I gave the post more credence that it probably deserved.

2) The people focusing on Kazakhstan, other than myself, are those that keep asking me questions about it. I didn't compare Scotland to Kazakhstan in isolation, it was one of several nations I compared Scotland to in the coefficient. None others have been discussed. I don't know why. The whole point of looking at the coefficient is that you can't be narrow minded, you can't be prejudiced, it is an objective view of every league. So, why don't I ask again - exactly which nation should Scotland be compared to? Be specific now.

1) perhaps if you had initially explained what you meant by new reality in your first post it would have saved me from having to pull teeth. I ignored nowt. You gave the post more credence than it probably deserved ? Eh no, you didn't....that would be me by trying to figure out what the hell you are actually trying to put over.

2) Perhaps if you hadn't foolishly brought Kazakhstan into the equation people wouldn't have ridiculed you about mentioning said country.
Which nation should Scotland be compared to ? Take your pick..I mentioned four which you dismissed, however I was of the opinion that initially at least the comparison evolved between Scottish football and English football in the top leagues.

By the way....I had a search re 'Armageddon' via google and found diddly squat re Rangers fans in their hordes predicting this. It is basically coming from rags and the idiots Regan and Doncaster. If you find anything from a sizeable amount of Rangers fans on this feel free to provide a link...I would be most interested.

 

[SALTIRE]

stop flexing salty mate

Already banned two spammers today, got my quota of power satisfied for the time being.