Hypothetical question

[Dirk]

Already banned two spammers today, got my quota of power satisfied for the time being.

Well done, Salty. Hope you had a few as a reward.
One of those for sure this guy who made spam threads with chinese signs (or was this even cyrillic and he was from Kazakhstan? )

 

[SALTIRE]

Well done, Salty. Hope you had a few as a reward.
One of those for sure this guy who made spam threads with chinese signs (or was this even cyrillic and he was from Kazakhstan? )

Aye I'd just got up, logged in and saw all that nonsense. Dunno where they come from.

 

[JimJams]

China?

 

[Stevencc]

Gone a bit quiet in here.

Graham Dorrans scored twice on his debut for Rangers today. That strike rate extrapolated over the length of the season would leave him with a respectable 76 league goals for the season.

His tally for a side in the Championship last season? 6 goals. His tally for a Premier League side the season before? That's right, 0.

76. 6. 0.

Make of that what you will.

 

[HtfcWArrior]

God don't start this shit again

 

[T.A]

Dude, it feels like you've been 13 for about 4 years. I'm on to you young man.

His Birthday is on a leap year. He's actually 58.

 

[epic73]

How did you know?

 

[Nilsson]

My team of researchers have just made me aware of something that completely dismantles one of St Juste's cornerstone points.

despite Celtic drawing twice with Man City, one of the leagues best teams, in the Champions League last season.

How to explain Man City drawing twice with Celtic in two games last season?

even though they drew twice with Man City

they drew twice with Man City last season

who drew twice with Man City

Middlesborough drew home and away in the PL with Manchester City last season too. Then they got relegated.....

 

[epic73]

Middlesborough drew home and away in the PL with Manchester City last season too. Then they got relegated.....

Middlesbrough beat City 8-1 in 2008 and got relegated the next season.

Conclusion: Matches against City don't matter.

 

[St. Juste]

Mahrez leaving during his trial because he didn't like the weather does not make him a failure at St Mirren. Using examples like this only weakens your argument because they are so incredbily flawed. There are other far better examples you could use, so why use one that makes you look desperate?
St Mirren didn't reject Mahrez, he left (fled) because he didn't like the cold.
""It went well. I played four friendlies and I scored seven goals. I killed them."
What a fucking shit example.

So, presumably you've read an article on this - have you deliberately misinterpreted it and have you lied and thought no one would notice? So let's take it from the horses mouth:

"An agent, Jean Evina, told me he had trial for me in the Scottish First Division with St Mirren reserves," Mahrez told L'Equipe. "He paid for my ticket and I went with another guy from Sarcelles [a suburb in Northern Paris], Dany Bekale.

"It went well. I played four friendlies and I scored seven goals. I killed them. And then they made me wait. Two-and-a-half months.

"I'd had enough. It drove me crazy, Scotland. It was cold. It was abuse. It was snowing and everything... I was so cold that one day I faked an injury to go to the locker room.

"It was physical and it was cold. We trained in the snow! I felt that I progressed; I wasn't allowed to go so I left in secret.

"Anyway... a few days later, my agent said... 'Riyad, I've sent you a ticket, you take the bus right away, get off at Glasgow Station and you get on the train to the airport, then you take the flight to Paris'.

Right, so he went two months without being offered a contract - or let go, not sure how we can do that - and by the time he had hilariously stolen a bike he was already leaving. Having not been offered a contract.

If it really went well we might have, you know, actually tried to sign him at some point within that 2 month period.

It's obviously a big mistake of us, one of many, but it does go to show player X failed at club Y really doesn't work. I can see why you're taking it personally with Mahrez, but the story above, from the man himself, says two months there, no contract offered, and already had a ticket booked by the time he 'fled'.

Of course, the weather in Paisley isn't dramatically different from the weather in Leicester.

Because you're comparing your supposedly high quality Scottish league with the league in Kazakhstan, which is absolutely, horrendously, crap.

How many Kazakh games have you seen? I haven't seen any, merely looked at the coefficient ranking - a data driven unbiased calculation - which shows they are of similar quality.

Nobody is getting anywhere with this argument st Juste quotes what they said and starts talking absolute bollocks about it and then gives some shit examples to try and back his answer up... Your fighting a lost battle mate

Isn't this how discussions work? Consider, reply, give relevant examples.

I'm the only one doing it, I'll give you that.

1) perhaps if you had initially explained what you meant by new reality in your first post it would have saved me from having to pull teeth. I ignored nowt. You gave the post more credence than it probably deserved ? Eh no, you didn't....that would be me by trying to figure out what the hell you are actually trying to put over.

2) Perhaps if you hadn't foolishly brought Kazakhstan into the equation people wouldn't have ridiculed you about mentioning said country.
Which nation should Scotland be compared to ? Take your pick..I mentioned four which you dismissed, however I was of the opinion that initially at least the comparison evolved between Scottish football and English football in the top leagues.

Wait, so I'm now being criticised for explaining every single concept in every one of my posts? I assumed from the context people know what I meant, you didn't, so I explained it. And I'm being criticised for doing so

2) Why wouldn't I mentioned it? They are below Scotland in the rankings. They have a much higher population. It is a relevant example. You wanted to compare Scotland to the biggest leagues in the world - the top 5 I referred to either. This is a classic example of self loathing, comparing yourself to a standard you can absolutely never attain. I could be quite a wealthy person, but by comparing myself to the richest 5 people in the world I'm always going to come across as desperately poor. This is self loathing. The initial comparison was top clubs in Scotland to Englands top flight, which has been answered quite comprehensively and the conversation has evolved.

Gone a bit quiet in here.

Graham Dorrans scored twice on his debut for Rangers today. That strike rate extrapolated over the length of the season would leave him with a respectable 76 league goals for the season.

His tally for a side in the Championship last season? 6 goals. His tally for a Premier League side the season before? That's right, 0.

76. 6. 0.

Make of that what you will.

Good example, Dorrans is someone who went straight from the Scottish 1st Division to the Premier League where he played well for several seasons.

Going by some of the posts on this thread, this would be equally likely with someone from the National League or below - would be interesting to see some examples of that.

My team of researchers have just made me aware of something that completely dismantles one of St Juste's cornerstone points.

Middlesborough drew home and away in the PL with Manchester City last season too. Then they got relegated.....

Middlesborough also played 36 other league games. Celtic played twice against English opposition, and drew twice. That is the entirety of the sample have. Someone said they wouldn't get a single point against any Premier League teams, they got two in two games against one of the best teams in the league.

So, eh, nice try I guess.

 

[Bilo]

Just lock the thread and throw it in the classics. It stopped being funny around page 3.

 

[epic73]

Middlesborough also played 36 other league games. Celtic played twice against English opposition, and drew twice. That is the entirety of the sample have. Someone said they wouldn't get a single point against any Premier League teams, they got two in two games against one of the best teams in the league.

So, eh, nice try I guess.

You're using two matches as your entire proof that Celtic could compete in the Premier League?

 

[HtfcWArrior]

Isn't this how discussions work? Consider, reply, give relevant examples.

Well not really... by banging on about kazhakstan and giving some shit examples (Jamie vardy) to try and back your even shitter argument

 

[St. Juste]

You're using two matches as your entire proof that Celtic could compete in the Premier League?

No I'm not, it is one of the many examples and data I have used to back up the relative strength of Scottish football.

With regards to Celtic staying in the Premier League (this is maybe the 5th time I've posted this?) I would say their current squad would stand a chance, might do it, but certainly wouldn't embarrass themselves.

Why on earth would there be 7 pages if that was literally my only point? Good grief.

Well not really... by banging on about kazhakstan and giving some shit examples (Jamie vardy) to try and back your even shitter argument

Kazakhstan, amongst several other nations. As I've said, I have no idea why people are criticising the example - they have literally not provided a single reason for doing so.

The Vardy example was one of, again, many I used. It seems to have struck a real nerve - as did Mahrez, but they were provided in criticism of the player X failed at club Y argument - so the strident opposition is, in many ways, proving my point.

You'll be a kid as well, I guess. You are saying nothing but criticising example (such as Vardy) that are being made in opposition to a point, not in support of it.

 

[epic73]

No I'm not, it is one of the many examples and data I have used to back up the relative strength of Scottish football.

What are the others?

As I've said, I have no idea why people are criticising the example - they have literally not provided a single reason for doing so.

This:

Because you're comparing your supposedly high quality Scottish league with the league in Kazakhstan, which is absolutely, horrendously, crap.

Why on earth would there be 7 pages if that was literally my only point? Good grief.

Because you've just been repeatedly stating your point(s) and also stating that you have seen no evidence against them while drowning in evidence against them.

 

[HtfcWArrior]

The Vardy example was one of, again, many I used. It seems to have struck a real nerve - as did Mahrez, but they were provided in criticism of the player X failed at club Y argument - so the strident opposition is, in many ways, proving my point.

It struck a nerve because he was 16 at the time when he left and its a really really bad but laughable example to give

 

[JimJams]

There could be any number of reasons that Mahrez wasn't offered a contract. Finances could be one. I didn't post the article becausw most of it iis him talking about the cold and planning his escape. Not massively relevant. What you know is that St Mirren didn't turn him down, he left. If you go somewhere for a job interview and then during the process decide its not for you and walk out, you didn't fail at that company did you?
You've chosen two Leicester players to prove you point and chosen two that don't prove it at all.
A better example would have been Albrighton. Released from Aston Villa as he wasn't deemed good enough, and in his next season he's an ever present in the side that wins the title while Villa are rock bottom and planning or a season in the Championship. Or Huth, surplus to requirements at Stoke allowed to join us for a small fee to then go on and play an important part in keeping us up and winning the title while Stoke just sort of stayed where they are. Leicester City has an abundance of players who prove the point you were trying to make but you've chosen two that in no way do that.
Danny Simpson, not good enough for Newcastle, not good enough for championship QPR but good enough to go a full league campaign with only 3 losses and get himself a league winners medal.
Pick better examples and people won't dismiss the point you're trying to make.
Though at this stage they probably will.

 

[Nilsson]

Someone said they wouldn't get a single point against any Premier League teams, they got two in two games against one of the best teams in the league.

Well I'm sure this person was being entirely serious.

The notion that simply drawing twice against Man City = you're good enough for the PL has been utterly dismantled. You could even argue that Boro's 2 draws was more impressive than Celtic's as City started youth players like Adarabioyo and Maffeo against Celtic.

 

[Pagnell]

Can I have the ten minutes of my life back that I've just spent reading this thread?

 

[Leo]

Wait, so I'm now being criticised for explaining every single concept in every one of my posts? I assumed from the context people know what I meant, you didn't, so I explained it. And I'm being criticised for doing so

2) Why wouldn't I mentioned it? They are below Scotland in the rankings. They have a much higher population. It is a relevant example. You wanted to compare Scotland to the biggest leagues in the world - the top 5 I referred to either. This is a classic example of self loathing, comparing yourself to a standard you can absolutely never attain. I could be quite a wealthy person, but by comparing myself to the richest 5 people in the world I'm always going to come across as desperately poor. This is self loathing. The initial comparison was top clubs in Scotland to Englands top flight, which has been answered quite comprehensively and the conversation has evolved.

I've read some shite in my time, I've read a helluva deflection in my time, I've read some egotists ignore points then in response pathetically attempt to put over opinions which totally bypass the original perspective.....but you truly are a grade 'A' at such absurdity. Your examples for self loathing are so far off beam, completely inaccurate. If you can post something that backs up your definition I would certainly be interested.

PS....still waiting on evidence about all these Rangers fans and Armageddon......

Evolved by introducing Kazakhstan per chance ?.....

 

[St. Juste]

What are the others?

This:
Because you've just been repeatedly stating your point(s) and also stating that you have seen no evidence against them while drowning in evidence against them.

What evidence? Someone just said it was horrendous.

That isn't evidence.

The evidence is where it is in the UEFA coefficient, behind Scotland but not far behind.

It struck a nerve because he was 16 at the time when he left and its a really really bad but laughable example to give

Good, that was the point.

Player X failing at club Y can, in isolation, be very misleading.

Glad you agree with me - let's hope this ends the "Scott Sinclair lol" argument.

There could be any number of reasons that Mahrez wasn't offered a contract. Finances could be one. I didn't post the article becausw most of it iis him talking about the cold and planning his escape. Not massively relevant. What you know is that St Mirren didn't turn him down, he left. If you go somewhere for a job interview and then during the process decide its not for you and walk out, you didn't fail at that company did you?
You've chosen two Leicester players to prove you point and chosen two that don't prove it at all.
A better example would have been Albrighton. Released from Aston Villa as he wasn't deemed good enough, and in his next season he's an ever present in the side that wins the title while Villa are rock bottom and planning or a season in the Championship. Or Huth, surplus to requirements at Stoke allowed to join us for a small fee to then go on and play an important part in keeping us up and winning the title while Stoke just sort of stayed where they are. Leicester City has an abundance of players who prove the point you were trying to make but you've chosen two that in no way do that.
Danny Simpson, not good enough for Newcastle, not good enough for championship QPR but good enough to go a full league campaign with only 3 losses and get himself a league winners medal.
Pick better examples and people won't dismiss the point you're trying to make.
Though at this stage they probably will.

I've honestly never heard of any trial lasting 2 months, and if it was snowing he must have been there over winter (or at least not during the summer transfer window). Given we were playing games at the time, if he was that good we might have offered him a contract. So we could, you know, play him. Maybe finances were an issue, we never seem to have discussed terms with him at all, but I suspect if we were totally broke we wouldn't have taken him on trial at all - I expect we were paying for him and the other guys hotel room.

By the time he "fled" his agent had already bought him a place ticket (with still no contract on the table).

It's at least as good an example as you bringing up Kenny Dalglish failing at West Ham.

But they all point to the same conclusion, one we all agree on, player X failing at club Y can, in isolation, be very misleading. Time to bury this Scott Sinclair point.

Well I'm sure this person was being entirely serious.

The notion that simply drawing twice against Man City = you're good enough for the PL has been utterly dismantled. You could even argue that Boro's 2 draws was more impressive than Celtic's as City started youth players like Adarabioyo and Maffeo against Celtic.

In the second game, in the first it was an entirely first choice line up.

It is literally the only two games between EPL and SPFL sides last season so is relevant to bring up. However, to suggest it gives a definitive answer would be wrong - I'm not sure if Celtic would stay up or not. Either way, I reckon they would come close.

 

[St. Juste]

I've read some shite in my time, I've read a helluva deflection in my time, I've read some egotists ignore points then in response pathetically attempt to put over opinions which totally bypass the original perspective.....but you truly are a grade 'A' at such absurdity. Your examples for self loathing are so far off beam, completely inaccurate. If you can post something that backs up your definition I would certainly be interested.

PS....still waiting on evidence about all these Rangers fans and Armageddon......

Evolved by introducing Kazakhstan per chance ?.....

You write a lot without saying anything.

I am providing opinions, backed up with evidence (data driven as far as possible, e.g. coefficients, proportional attendance figures) and where possible with relevant examples.

You are doing none of the above, but think the only valid comparison the SPFL can have is with....the top 5 leagues in the world. As I said, it's a clear example of self loathing, comparing yourself to a ridiculous unattainable standard.

 

[JimJams]

Using a 2 game sample size proves nothing.
Millwall played 4 premier league sides in the FA cup last season, winning 3 and losing 1. Taking that sample as 9 points from a possible 12 and Millwall could win the league, certainly finish top 4.

 

[JimJams]

It's at least as good an example as you bringing up Kenny Dalglish failing at West Ham.

You do realise the Dalglish example was a deliberately poor example to illustrate must how bad the examples you were using were?

But they all point to the same conclusion, one we all agree on, player X failing at club Y can, in isolation, be very misleading. Time to bury this Scott Sinclair point.

It is misleading. Using really poor examples to highlight this is also misleading.
One thing about your choice of examples though is that the situation is different. What you were trying to prove with your Leicester players as an example is that players can fail at a lower level and then perform at a higher level.
This is not Sinclairs situation.
You also referenced Afonso Alves as an example. He isn't an example of the same thing. He is a player that excelled at a lower level, when making the step up to a better league, he failed. This is more the position that SS is in at the moment. And if anything that kind of example just backs up the points others are making against SS and Celtic. That an average or poor player by one standard (Premier league) can excel at a lower standard (SPFL).
I'm not commenting on the quality of Sinclair one way or the other, just making the point about your chosen examples.

 

[JimJams]

Can I have the ten minutes of my life back that I've just spent reading this thread?

You'd just waste it.

 

[HtfcWArrior]

I think I'm done with this now I've wasted enough of my life on This thread, time that I will never get back I'm afraid

 

[St. Juste]

Using a 2 game sample size proves nothing.
Millwall played 4 premier league sides in the FA cup last season, winning 3 and losing 1. Taking that sample as 9 points from a possible 12 and Millwall could win the league, certainly finish top 4.

Given this is a hypothetical question, and there is hardly any of proof available anyway, I would say it more than satisfies a very low bar.

It's infinitely better than the "Scott Sinclair lol" counter 'evidence'.

It certainly disproves the "wouldn't get a single point" nonsense we saw earlier.

You do realise the Dalglish example was a deliberately poor example to illustrate must how bad the examples you were using were?

It is misleading. Using really poor examples to highlight this is also misleading.
One thing about your choice of examples though is that the situation is different. What you were trying to prove with your Leicester players as an example is that players can fail at a lower level and then perform at a higher level.
This is not Sinclairs situation.
You also referenced Afonso Alves as an example. He isn't an example of the same thing. He is a player that excelled at a lower level, when making the step up to a better league, he failed. This is more the position that SS is in at the moment. And if anything that kind of example just backs up the points others are making against SS and Celtic. That an average or poor player by one standard (Premier league) can excel at a lower standard (SPFL).
I'm not commenting on the quality of Sinclair one way or the other, just making the point about your chosen examples.

Well, it was more an argument regarding player X fails at club Y but let's consider Scott Sinclair himself.

He actually played well in the Premier League for Swansea, and Championship for that matter, and was signed by Man City because of his good performances for Swansea.

Following not breaking in at Man City he went on loan to WBA and didn't get much of a look in in a season where they had two permanent managers and one interim. Following that he went to Aston Villa and actually did well enough in a loan period to be signed permanently - where he then preceded to fail, along with virtually every other Aston Villa player at that time.

I actually think he's a player more than capable of playing in the Premier League, certainly in the lower end of the division.

However, and again I've repeated this at least three times. Say Sinclair was a player who completely failed at Premier League level, I dunno Patrick Bamford for example, and then came to the SPFL and did incredibly well I wouldn't be surprised. The gap between the two leagues is vast and it's entirely possible poor Premier League players could do very well in Scotland. There are plenty of cases where it won't happen, see Fortune, but equally there is a case that it is possible.

However, what certainly can't be extrapolated is that because Scott Sinclair is a supposedly poor player Scottish football is objectively terrible and getting worse - it pays no consideration to how he would fare in comparable nations such as Croatia, Finland etc. All it shows is that poor Premier League players can do well in other leagues, which could probably apply to every league. See Iago Aspas or Andrej Kamaric.

But again, I've posted this more than a few times, so I fully expect we'll revert back to criticising the Vardy example, or the Dalglish example, and I'll have to explain the above again in a few pages.

I think I'm done with this now I've wasted enough of my life on This thread, time that I will never get back I'm afraid

It's a pity you didn't realise this much earlier. I can say your contributions have been less than stellar.

 

[Leo]

You write a lot without saying anything.

I am providing opinions, backed up with evidence (data driven as far as possible, e.g. coefficients, proportional attendance figures) and where possible with relevant examples.

You are doing none of the above, but think the only valid comparison the SPFL can have is with....the top 5 leagues in the world. As I said, it's a clear example of self loathing, comparing yourself to a ridiculous unattainable standard.

I actually post with relevant information on the topic in hand (see my first post in this thread) not go off on tangents in an attempt to disguise the fact I refuse to accept the irrefutable. Tangents being....'co-efficients, Kazakhstan comparison, proportional attendance figures lol & the best one....empirical evidence . Your ego I presume gets in the way of your intellect going by the puerile nonsense you constantly repeat. T'was actually yourself that brought in 'the top 5 leagues' in our 'discussion' & if you read back I did say that I was of the opinion that the thread (unfortunately) evolved into a comparison between Scottish & English top leagues. I don't have to post data or empirical evidence....I do not have to when dealing with yourself. So, go back to the first post of this thread and accept the fact that you have taken the topic so far off it's actual point that nobody is interested in your configuration of a question which really is quite simple.

Evidence re the ALL Rangers fans and Armageddon ?

Meant to add....your use of 'self loathing' in this instance is totally incorrect.

 

[Bilo]

Can I have the ten minutes of my life back that I've just spent reading this thread?

No refunds.

 

[Renegade]