Jose Mourinho to replace LVG as Man U manager?

[G-Dragon]

 

[Pagnell]

Mourinho on Shaw tonight:-

"I tell you because I told him already. Luke Shaw had a good performance but it was his body with my brain. He was in front of me and I was making every decision for him. The communication was possible because we were very close. I was thinking for him - when to close, when to go inside. He cannot play with my understanding of the game, he must think and he must accelerate the process - 21 years old is old enough to have a better understanding of the game but his contribution was good."

What the fuck? Er.....OK Jose.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

It's almost as if the club has wider problems that go beyond or above who the manager is.

 

[JimJams]

Shite coaches?

 

[Pagnell]

Shite coaches?

Well, the windows on the one they used at the West Ham game smashed in a bit easy for my liking.

 

[Bilo]

It's almost as if the club has wider problems that go beyond or above who the manager is.

Of course they do, every club does.

I mean, look at us. It's a shame the old spot went down or I'd dig up some quotes from the run title run in back in 2009, when we finished second. Though every manager and (EXCEPT LUCAS WHO IS INFLUENTIAL I AGREE) player has been replaced, we're still pretty much the same team. The stuff Pags, me and MBR post today is at times word for word the same shit we posted eight years ago. Injuries to key players, always performing against the big clubs while failing against the minnows in an almost uncanny way.

I guess you'd have to ask an expert in group psychology but I guess these things kind of get passed down, a type of club identity if you like. Almost similar to a country; where culture pass through generations.

So I believe that when Ferguson retired, it was a whole culture which had to be replaced if you like. Replaced, because over those 27 years the common culture at United was almost exclusively Ferguson. Which isn't to say United didn't have an identity before that, but rather it's a compliment to how ridiculously influential he was on United as a club.

So when they replaced him with Moyes, and he failed as spectacularly as he did, that started the era we're still seeing today -- United finding an identity post-Ferguson. And the marks he left are still there, but I'm not entirely convinced it wouldn't have gone exactly the same almost no matter who replaced Ferguson. Basically, a post-Ferguson identity has been in a process of being put in place for the past 4 years and they can't be undone. It'll be a long, tough process to get that "swagger" back, as the tabloids like to call it. Because the truth is, that identity the swagger refers to is a call to an era which passed.

Many are currently trying to find parallells between Mourinho of this year and Mourinho of last year, when he failed so spectacularly at Chelsea. But the two seasons have almost nothing in common. Instead, all seasons post Ferguson have significantly more in common than that Chelsea team. I remember writing a long post about Chelsea's failures last season being odd, because they weren't failing tactically -- instead their players continously failed to handle situations they handled perfectly well only a few months before. Now, we know the explanation to that. This United side, however, is failing tactically and they're doing so quite regularly. If it wasn't for Mourinho's CV, people would say he's "out of his depth". Just the same way they told Moyes, when his team failed in a remarkably similar way (but Moyes being Moyes, I concede that they are a significantly more entertaining side today).

I don't even know how long this shit takes to change to the very core to be honest. When a club legend like Ferguson retires it goes quickly, but we've been having the same core problems for well over 10 years now. It's been a few managers in between, everything has been changed, but the identity hasn't changed all that much. Sacking Mourinho wouldn't change it, either.

 

[sl1k]

Yesterday all but sealed our fate in terms of top four; with Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Tottenham in our last 9 games it's just not gonna happen if we can't bury the West Broms and Evertons. Things can be strangely reminiscent of LVG's tenure at times, admittedly, in that we get so close but end up falling so far. Otherwise though the fundemental problems are very different - demonstrated somewhat by our chance creation and shot conversion numbers.

We had a midfield of Carrick, Herrera and Fellaini yesterday. Ashley Young at full back. Rashford and Lingard flanking Ibra. In what was a must win PL game.

Just . .



Though I do get his frustrations with the attitudes and performance levels of some members of the team, eventually and ultimately, responsibility will fall at the manager's door for the results of the collective. That process will accelerate if you're making decisions (omitting players to 'challenge' them, or make points) that end up [perceived as] being to the detriment of those results - the flip side of high stakes high rewards management.

It must be said that on the whole, as big as our squad is, it is pretty shit. The fact that player for player United and Everton looked evenly matched on paper is quite conclusive of that. Take out Zlatan and Pogba - we don't look the same outfit/proposition. Rashford is 19 years old and will be inconsistent, not really ideal to have him leading the line in 'come crunch time' games. Martial after an incredible start, has died. Lingard who is a good-elbeit-bang-average squaddie getting way too many minutes. No real consistency in our midfield set up (whether forced by injury or not). There's Fellaini and all the destruction he brings [to our own].

The defence has been mostly good though, something that had to be previously papered over with ultra defensive possession footy. Players are committed forward, but the chances we have been missing are ludicrous. I swear Pogba hits the woodwork every game himself. The quality of officiating has been pissing poor this season too, which i'm sure most of us can agree on. Has often worked against us at key moments in key games.

I'd prefer it we go all in for Europa now. Keep our strongest available 11 fit for it and we'll be favourites for another trophy in a competition United have never won. That and the EFL cup would spell out a successful season for me. Otherwise, it'd be a disastrous one. Fine margins.

 

[Bilo]

The quality of officiating has been pissing poor this season too, which i'm sure most of us can agree on.

I'm not meaning this as a bait, but haven't you had 7 offside goals given this season? That has to be some kind of record to be honest, and it's hard to claim the shit officiating has gone against you. Not that you are outright.

 

[sl1k]

I'm not meaning this as a bait, but haven't you had 7 offside goals given this season? That has to be some kind of record to be honest, and it's hard to claim the shit officiating has gone against you. Not that you are outright.

I'm not too clued up with the particular figures, but of the 6 that came up in a Sun article only two would directly change the result of the game (2-1 win over Palace and 1-1 draw with Liverpool). That's 3 points.

Need a lot more fortune than that if decisions are to 'balance themselves out' by the end of the season. The non-penalty calls against Burnley and Arsenal alone cost 4 points - assuming of course they are netted. But United sit 18th in the penalties awarded table, 2 for and 4 against on match day 30 in the PL.

 

[G-Dragon]

Comparing offside decisions to penalties is quite different imho. For example, I think that was never a penalty against Arsenal.
"Manchester United have scored 8 offside goals this season and conceded 9 Onside goals against them ruled offside." United fans really can't cry about ref decisions.

Oh and these..

 

[Bilo]

I'm not too clued up with the particular figures, but of the 6 that came up in a Sun article only two would directly change the result of the game (2-1 win over Palace and 1-1 draw with Liverpool). That's 3 points.

Need a lot more fortune than that if decisions are to 'balance themselves out' by the end of the season. The non-penalty calls against Burnley and Arsenal alone cost 4 points - assuming of course they are netted. But United sit 18th in the penalties awarded table, 2 for and 4 against on match day 30 in the PL.

While I see the appeal of your thinking, not least because I've written a few posts very much like this one myself during our worst times but it's a proper rabbit hole to go down.

I mentioned the offside goals mostly because I think it's a record or something, rather than saying it specifically means you've hade more luck than not. But it really is a can of worms and it gets extremely complicated to even try to argue that it's gone against you rather than in your favor. For example, you'd have to look into all the odd decisions that have happened in your rivals' games and you never would.

The thing is this: it's perfectly true that you've missed some chances, you've had some fantastic goalkeeping performances at OT this season and there have been a few calls that have gone against you. But it's the exact same thing all struggling teams in every league have been saying for ages, us too. So just the fact that you're arguing the line kind of shows the struggle United is in at the moment. But I think you'll win the EL and it'll all be forgotten.

 

[Gills4years]

Getting back to the title of this link, is everyone convinced that the change of manager has been a success?

A lot is riding on Europa League success but if United fail there, there is a real possibility that instead of winning the FA Cup and missing out on CL on goal difference under LVG, United will this season have won the League cup and missed out on CL on points !

This after spending transfer fees in excess of £120 million (Pogba, Mkhartarian, Bailly) and paying mega wages and signing on fee to Ibrahimovic.

Mourinho also tries to take a cheap shot at LVG for selling the likes of Wellbeck and Hernandez when he sold De Bruyne, Lukaku and Luiz at Chelsea.

Perhaps his second season will be better although that hardly proved to be the case at Chelsea.

I appreciate the entertainment value was not good under LVG but Mourinho's reputation was built on success and pragmatism rather than free flowing football

 

[Kyle Hatch]

Perhaps his second season will be better although that hardly proved to be the case at Chelsea.

this gem...

I think most sensible united fans are disappointed, we hoped for a title challenge, but for most of us we can see the green shoots. Football is alot better, performances are improved. Taking our chances and we'd be comfortable top 4. Despite ibra knocking in the goals he could of had more, and the likes of rashford really should have. Jose's teams are always better in there second season, i'm not saying title challenge but should be better. It will be alot easier however, if we squeeze in top 4 or win europa.

 

[Pagnell]

It's a sign of the times when United fans have to resort to desperate justification of team and managerial performance with comments like "had we taken our chances, we'd be comfortably top 4."

 

[Renegade]

I'll refer people to my post that no one read in the match day thread last week.

There has been a measurable improvement in United's play this season. They have done reasonably well defensively (somehow Mourinho has managed to cobble together a decent defence from players that we assumed were finished and former midfielders) and they have only created less chances than Liverpool in the league. Finishing has been a huge issue - apart from Ibrahimovic, the attacking players have been woeful in front of goal. I think Mata, who is a bit part player at this point, is the only other player who shouldn't be ashamed of their shooting this season. Yes, this can be put partly down to Mourinho's failings in training, but they are playing significantly better football than they were under Moyes and Van Gaal. They control games far more consistently this season.

Chances created/goals conceded/possession:

2016/17: 2nd/3rd/3rd (Mourinho)
2015/16: 17th/2nd/3rd (LVG)
2014/15: 6th/4th/2nd (LVG)
2013/14: 9th/5th/6th (Moyes)

The league is much stronger this season (we've had a recent influx of three of the best managers in world football) and the chances that United have failed to take again and again has led to a league high 12 draws, the majority of which they have dominated. This is why the points tally is so low. There is no comparison with Moyes or LVG, the performance standard has been significantly better and it's obvious to anyone who regularly had to watch the turgid football of the previous three seasons.

It's not 'hoof it up to Fellaini' tactics, I think that myth has continued from the LVG days. A lazy cliché. This is the first time in years I have enjoyed and been pleased by how they play. Shame they can't finish though, eh?

It's not just clutching at straws Pags, the football is measurably better in almost every respect than it was under LVG (and Moyes as I was responding to above). One of the most important ones however - the finishing - has been shambolic.

I don't think I ever tried to defend LVG after realising a few months in that the football would always be that boring and ineffectual. United fans aren't blindly defended Mourinho, as many have claimed. The fanbase is significantly happier with the product on the pitch. If they fail to challenge next season, then things will no doubt change.

 

[Bilo]

It's not just clutching at straws Pags, the football is measurably

Except when you use the one measurement that matters.

It's not that Pags doesn't get what you say, we all do. It's just that the line of arguing you're getting at here is like A1 for underperforming teams. And having read it so many times throughout the years, it very rarely ends with the team starting to finish their chances and the manager goes on to be a successful one. In fact, I can't think of a single example of it. I remember us saying exactly the same thing under Dalglish. Funnily enough Suarez did learn to shoot eventually and that bumped our chance conversion rate a lot, but Dalglish had been sacked by then as I'm sure you recall.

Football is way, way too complicated to take a certain group of numbers and say "look, we improved". Improvement in itself is such a broad term that it becomes redundant if you ignore the one category where it actually matters, saying you improved in every other aspect. Also, chance conversion rate is quite an inaccurate stat*. Last season, I remember LvG going on about you conceding a goal from a huge percentage of your chances against, paying little attention to the fact that the chances you did concede were basically sitters.

Truth is though, you can be as right as you want. The reason Liverpool fans will always chuckle at it is simply because you sound exactly like us a few years ago. And we don't really mind that it's you instead of us.



* As every United fan reminded us on here back in 2012.

 

[Renegade]

Except when you use the one measurement that matters.

It's not that Pags doesn't get what you say, we all do. It's just that the line of arguing you're getting at here is like A1 for underperforming teams. And having read it so many times throughout the years, it very rarely ends with the team starting to finish their chances and the manager goes on to be a successful one. In fact, I can't think of a single example of it. I remember us saying exactly the same thing under Dalglish. Funnily enough Suarez did learn to shoot eventually and that bumped our chance conversion rate a lot, but Dalglish had been sacked by then as I'm sure you recall.

Football is way, way too complicated to take a certain group of numbers and say "look, we improved". Improvement in itself is such a broad term that it becomes redundant if you ignore the one category where it actually matters, saying you improved in every other aspect. Also, chance conversion rate is quite an inaccurate stat*. Last season, I remember LvG going on about you conceding a goal from a huge percentage of your chances against, paying little attention to the fact that the chances you did concede were basically sitters.

Truth is though, you can be as right as you want. The reason Liverpool fans will always chuckle at it is simply because you sound exactly like us a few years ago. And we don't really mind that it's you instead of us.



* As every United fan reminded us on here back in 2012.

I understand what it looks like from the other side, sincerely, but in the context of this debate - Mourinho vs his predecessors - I don't think these statistics are insignificant. Mourinho has disappointed to a degree, United really should be in the top four with the amount of money spent, no excuses there. There are too many variables to simply consider current position and points accumulated when comparing him to LVG and Moyes. I think it's reductive to do so.

The quality of football is much better. They create far more chances (they were 17th last year, 17th) and whilst chance creation isn't a perfect statistic, anyone that has watched United this season can attest to how many 1v1s they have missed and the amount of pressure that was put on the teams they ended up drawing with. The strength of the league cannot be ignored when comparing Mourinho and LVG - the Premier League was arguably at its weakest in decades last season, with Leicester winning the league and all the traditional top clubs in transitional seasons. Liverpool, City and Chelsea now have world class managers and comparable squads, Klopp having more time to implement his system. Spurs have a fantastic manager and a settled squad. Did LVG or Moyes face such quality when they were in the league? I don't think they did and they played putrid football stylistically on top of this.

For the last few seasons there have been divisions in the fanbase. Those that defended Moyes despite vastly inferior performance to Ferguson and those that could see that United were going nowhere fast. Those that defended LVG as an improvement on Moyes and those that could not stand his brand of possession football. I think the entire fanbase realises that United are in a much better situation with Mourinho, points or not. They understand the Premier League is potentially entering a new era of dominance and United are competing with much improved sides.

If the question is - has Mourinho been a success? You might get a different answer. The poster that brought this up was comparing him to LVG though. That isn't even a contest.

 

[Pagnell]

Louis van Gaal = 65 points from first 35 league games.

José Mourinho plus an additional £157m = 65 points from first 35 league games.

 

[Jamie_SFC]

He's a draw and a win away in the Europa League from having a better season than Pochettino, Klopp and Guardiola.

 

[sl1k]

yeah pags quit trolling or i'll have to report you to our reinvigorated modmins

 

[Pagnell]

Pointing out facts isn't trolling.

Despite their recent unbeaten run and exploits against mediocre teams in the Europa (have a team ever gotten to the semi-final on an easier run?), United are drab to watch. Given the money spent the quality on offer is shocking, and that is partly down to the way Mourinho teams play in general.

 

[smat]

The Europa League is far from a foregone conclusion tbh, and given that it was surprising how little they tried to win today. With Liverpool dropping points and generally unreliable, and City always having a bad result in them, there was a way to the Champions League via the league (and still is, just about). They were so negative, though. Not scored a goal in any of the away games against the top six this season, and you can see why.

 

[sl1k]

We've had a few displays this season where our counter attacking play (particularly before Zlatan got injured) didn't work out and ended up defending deep without effective outlets. For this there are contributory factors including but not limited to: Martial being disappointing, Micky taking time to settle and Rashford was either on the bench or out wide. It did make for some ugly performances, when they work out though they are in the 'masterclass' frame.

Despite the money spent there are some gaping holes in the squad having just come out of the post-Moyes and LVG era. Far, far from a Mourinho Team™ but he made astute signings who all went on to play important roles this season. A work in progress by all means. As most if not all the United fans here have said, he'll be judged much more harshly next year.

As disappointed as I was with today's result, I agreed with his decision to give up on top four after the Swansea draw. Having more difficult fixtures than Liverpool and City whilst relying on them to drop points, it's definitely a safer bet going the Europa route via Celta Vigo and Ajax/Lyon. It'll be a tough final without doubt, but with a well rested/focused on task first XI I'd expect us to win it. We fookin have to.

 

[G.B]

Louis van Gaal = 65 points from first 35 league games.

José Mourinho plus an additional £157m = 65 points from first 35 league games.

Hello Pags mate. Look at this link and that.

https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/861191383238844417

Could you please explain why one of these people endured a campaign of hatred and personal abuse from Liverpool fans before being thrown out of the club and given meme status while the other is worshipped mate? Thank you mate.

 

[Nilsson]

Hello Pags mate. Look at this link and that.

https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/861191383238844417

Very impressive statistical comeback, it must be said.

 

[Pagnell]

Could you please explain why one of these people endured a campaign of hatred and personal abuse from Liverpool fans before being thrown out of the club and given meme status while the other is worshipped mate? Thank you mate.

No worries GB mate, always glad to be of help to those who pretend to need the obvious pointing out.

Putting aside the deliberate exaggeration of hatred campaigns and personal abuse etc, a quick question. Do you think Rodgers, after 65 games in charge, was receiving more ridicule from Liverpool fans than Klopp currently is? Unfortunately, Rodgers was a victim of his own success. He took us to within a gnat's cock of winning the league in his second full season, then immediately followed it with a bad campaign. He then started the next one no better before it became obvious Klopp was an option for replacement and he was sacked. Should he have been given longer? Perhaps. And he probably would have been if not for Klopp being available. Was he treated unfairly? Absolutely, but that's football, there is little in the way of sentiment.

As for Klopp, I've no doubt he does and will continue to get an easier ride than most managers from most fans because of his success with Dortmund. But if Liverpool fail to finish top 4 this season then he will have failed his first proper test in his first full season for me, and I for one won't hold back on the criticism. He will then have a summer transfer window before being judged again next season. If we fail to finish top 4 in that as well (or have a bad league campaign and do badly in Europe if we bag 4th this season) then he will have had two full seasons and can be fully judged. But it's too early to make direct judgements at the moment. In short, Rodgers had three full campaigns, Klopp has yet to finish his first. Also, I'm aware it's too early to compare Van Gaal and Mourinho, and I posted the stats above tongue-in-cheek because they're funny, like the Rodgers/Klopp stats you posted.

On a side note it's also worth pointing out that, so far, Klopp has sold players to a value more than what he's spent. The same can't be said of Rodgers, and that is even taking into account the £75m received for Suarez. That will likely change this window of course, assuming the owners open their wallet.

 

[G.B]

Thank you mate. Aside from attempting to sully my good name with ridiculous, and quite frankly hurtful, claims of exaggeration on my part (how very well dare you btw) that was a decent post. Well done mate.

 

[Pagnell]

Sorry. I often forget how sensitive you are.

 

[smat]

United are now mathematically out of the running for a top 4 place. Absolutely astonishing underachievement really. Everything rests on the Europa League final for Jose now. If United lose it, is there any justification for not giving him the boot? All he'd have over Moyes is the League Cup.

God, that'd be a shame.

 

[Nilsson]

United are now mathematically out of the running for a top 4 place. Absolutely astonishing underachievement really.

Tbf it would've been just as pathetic and a failure if we managed to sneak into the top 4. Only Chelsea and Spurs come out of this season with any credit.

And winning the Europa League would go a long way in rectifying a poor league performance but his job doesn't hinge on it. He won't have any excuses next season though.