Scottish fitba!

[SALTIRE]

Finished 1 - 1 I believe. The Scottish Premiership is great fun; crap quality, but you usually always get entertaining games.

 

[St. Juste]

Well, poor quality relative to what? The majority of Scottish football teams are as good as they've ever been, some decidedly better, whilst only Rangers and Celtic have declined since they no longer spend unsustainable sums on wages (well, the former anyway).

Consider Aberdeen for example, still a good team, but obviously not at the same level as their greatest team in history (the 80s) but football has changed decidedly since then and it'd be impossible to reach such heights again with the free movement of players that exists now.

 

[Liam_SWFC]

Most Scottish sides would struggle in League One.

 

[SALTIRE]

Well, poor quality relative to what? The majority of Scottish football teams are as good as they've ever been, some decidedly better, whilst only Rangers and Celtic have declined since they no longer spend unsustainable sums on wages (well, the former anyway).

Consider Aberdeen for example, still a good team, but obviously not at the same level as their greatest team in history (the 80s) but football has changed decidedly since then and it'd be impossible to reach such heights again with the free movement of players that exists now.

I grew up when there wasn't really that much of a gap between the Scottish topflight and the English. The standard of the Scottish Premiership isn't even Conference level down south (even Celtic are probably only at Championship level at best), but I don't care about that tbh as it's different and a genuinely fun and different league to watch anyway.

 

[St. Juste]

Most Scottish sides would struggle in League One.

A random punt that is based on....what?

Not wages or attendances clearly. Gordon Greer, a player who utterly failed in Scottish football, regularly captained a leading Championship side for the past few years.

I grew up when there wasn't really that much of a gap between the Scottish topflight and the English. The standard of the Scottish Premiership isn't even Conference level down south (even Celtic are probably only at Championship level at best), but I don't care about that tbh as it's different and a genuinely fun and different league to watch anyway.

With regards to your first sentence, that's a bit rose tinted spectacles but even so, Hungarian football, Dutch football, Portuguese football etc. etc. were all far closer to the biggest leagues than they are now. The top four (or maybe five) of the biggest countries in Europe have by far the best leagues,they have charged out in front because of the spectacular rise of TV money (an anomaly that bizarrely continues to exist in the internet era). It's not Scotlands fault this is happened, and there is absolutely nothing we can do to be as good as a nation 10 times our size. Similarly, there is absolutely nothing Dutch football can do, they will never win a European cup again - and it's emphatically not their fault.

As for your second sentence, this is just bizarre and demonstrably false. Plenty of SPL rejects go to a higher level than the Championship - think Gregg Wylde or Graham Carey or Sean Kelly.

You do demonstrate my exact point though, the utterly bewildering self depricating attitude of many fans inside (and outside) Scotland towards our game. Never mind we have amongst the highest proportional attendance in the wolrld

 

[rudebwoyben]

I think the fact that a lot of ex-League 2/National League players ply their trade in the SPL shows that as does the fact that Oxford Utd, newly promoted to League 1, signed Kane Hemmings off Dundee.

 

[Liam_SWFC]

So do you seriously think the likes of Hamilton, Kilmarnock, Inverness and Ross County would be able to compete any higher than the 4th tier in England? I even think Rangers and Celtic would be very average Championship sides.

 

[Gulliball]

Celtic at the moment I think could be a Premiership side. Most of the players they sell go to the Premiership and their signings come from a decent standard of football.

The thing is though, what do you think a side with 50 000 watching them play poor sides every week and a decent worldwide following could be with £100m a year extra in TV revenue. Stick Celtic in the Premiership with that kind of money coming in and they could be a huge side.

Even Rangers, Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts, who can all get sell-out 20k+ for big games in Scotland could hold their own in the Premiership with hundreds of millions extra a year and more TV exposure around the world.

The reason why even sides in L1 can take players from Dundee is the money in England. Even the limited money that filters down to L1 dwarfs the money in Scotland - Oxford received millions for Roofe and O'Dowda, so can spend a few hundred thousands on a player. The wages of most lower league English sides are higher than SPL sides. Rotherham, Nottingham, Burnley etc aren't any better suited to football than Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen, but they countries they play in are playing different games such are the levels they operate on.

 

[St. Juste]

I think the fact that a lot of ex-League 2/National League players ply their trade in the SPL shows that as does the fact that Oxford Utd, newly promoted to League 1, signed Kane Hemmings off Dundee.

Really? Like who? Plenty of ex SPL players play in the Premiership, what does it prove?

This was the same Kane Hemmings released by Rangers?

Looks like Preston, a Championship side, are losing a striker they want to keep to a SPL side that isn't Celtic. Kinda blows the whole "everyone would be in the conference" out of the water.

So do you seriously think the likes of Hamilton, Kilmarnock, Inverness and Ross County would be able to compete any higher than the 4th tier in England? I even think Rangers and Celtic would be very average Championship sides.

Absolutely they would, they have wage budgets equivalent to lower league one team and higher league two teams. Do you really think they would be in the Conference?

Similarly, sides like Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs etc. attain attendances in line with Championship clubs.

I really don't think Celtic are worse than Burnley or Hull, quite the contrary actually, but it is not something that is easy to prove.

Celtic at the moment I think could be a Premiership side. Most of the players they sell go to the Premiership and their signings come from a decent standard of football.

The thing is though, what do you think a side with 50 000 watching them play poor sides every week and a decent worldwide following could be with £100m a year extra in TV revenue. Stick Celtic in the Premiership with that kind of money coming in and they could be a huge side.

Even Rangers, Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts, who can all get sell-out 20k+ for big games in Scotland could hold their own in the Premiership with hundreds of millions extra a year and more TV exposure around the world.

The reason why even sides in L1 can take players from Dundee is the money in England. Even the limited money that filters down to L1 dwarfs the money in Scotland - Oxford received millions for Roofe and O'Dowda, so can spend a few hundred thousands on a player. The wages of most lower league English sides are higher than SPL sides. Rotherham, Nottingham, Burnley etc aren't any better suited to football than Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen, but they countries they play in are playing different games such are the levels they operate on.

You're right, where SPL teams would place in English football is a rather amusing, but ultimately fruitless exercise. What are you expecting, and why does it matter? It's absolutely right to call out utter falsehoods that 11 SPL teams would be a Conference level side but the split beyond that is obviously open to interpretation. SPL sides will have bigger budgets than the majority of league 2 sides (if not all) and the flow of players reflects this. Some are comparable to League One sides, some to Championship sides and Rangers and Celtic compete with promotion chasers / recently promoted EPL sides.

The very fact we are compared to England at all is, in itself, ludicrous.Our population peers are Finland, Norway and Denmark, and our league structure is much stronger and has greater depth than all three. We are arguably, depending on what time period you are looking at, even stronger than much larger nations like Romania, Bulgaria and Poland.

Scottish football is, and remains, an incredible success story. No attempt to shoehorn a comparison to a neighbour ten times our size will change that.

 

[rudebwoyben]

In ter

Really? Like who? Plenty of ex SPL players play in the Premiership, what does it prove?

This was the same Kane Hemmings released by Rangers?

Looks like Preston, a Championship side, are losing a striker they want to keep to a SPL side that isn't Celtic. Kinda blows the whole "everyone would be in the conference" out of the water.



Absolutely they would, they have wage budgets equivalent to lower league one team and higher league two teams. Do you really think they would be in the Conference?

Similarly, sides like Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs etc. attain attendances in line with Championship clubs.

I really don't think Celtic are worse than Burnley or Hull, quite the contrary actually, but it is not something that is easy to prove.



You're right, where SPL teams would place in English football is a rather amusing, but ultimately fruitless exercise. What are you expecting, and why does it matter? It's absolutely right to call out utter falsehoods that 11 SPL teams would be a Conference level side but the split beyond that is obviously open to interpretation. SPL sides will have bigger budgets than the majority of league 2 sides (if not all) and the flow of players reflects this. Some are comparable to League One sides, some to Championship sides and Rangers and Celtic compete with promotion chasers / recently promoted EPL sides.

The very fact we are compared to England at all is, in itself, ludicrous.Our population peers are Finland, Norway and Denmark, and our league structure is much stronger and has greater depth than all three. We are arguably, depending on what time period you are looking at, even stronger than much larger nations like Romania, Bulgaria and Poland.

Scottish football is, and remains, an incredible success story. No attempt to shoehorn a comparison to a neighbour ten times our size will change that.[/QUOTE

In terms of ex-League 2/National League players playing in the SPL - Dean Brill, Marvin Johnson, Louis Moult, Ross Draper, Jayden Stockley, David Amoo, Abdul Osman and that's without even looking...

 

[St. Juste]

In ter

Might want to try that again.

 

[rudebwoyben]

Might want to try that again.

I don't know what happened there!
Anyway, Dean Brill, Ross Draper, Carl Tremarco, Owain Fon Williams, Louis Moult and Marvin Johnson moved directly from League 2/National League clubs to the SPL.

 

[St. Juste]

So if we assume there is about 50 incoming transfers a year in the SPL, that would represent around 5% (as they didn't all come in the same year).

Plus the majority of these players actually played at a higher level before dropping down (and then coming back up again) to the SPL.

So.....not really sure what point it proves? The SPL will get players from a variety of sources and leagues, indeed, they will sign more players from the Premiership than they will from the Conference.

Sean Kelly was released by St. Mirren, a second division team, and went to Wimbledon in League One. This is a player not deemed good enough for a second tier team in Scotland, going to a third tier team in England (and, indeed, subsequently playing for them). If the SPL was really all Conference level (or U-13 girls level) then that clearly wouldn't happen.

 

[rudebwoyben]

Plus the majority of these players actually played at a higher level before dropping down (and then coming back up again) to the SPL.

.

No, they didn't. They moved directly to the SPL from League 2/National League clubs. Also, as I said before these were the ones I can just remember off the top of my head. There are plenty more.
Anyway, It's all a bit of a circular argument as if Scottish clubs received the same amount of TV money as English clubs then they would be able to recruit players at the same level. They don't so they can't.

 

[St. Juste]

No, they didn't. They moved directly to the SPL from League 2/National League clubs. Also, as I said before these were the ones I can just remember off the top of my head. There are plenty more.
Anyway, It's all a bit of a circular argument as if Scottish clubs received the same amount of TV money as English clubs then they would be able to recruit players at the same level. They don't so they can't.

Eh, I know, which is why I said they started a high level (one of them is an international...) went down to League Two / Conference and then went to the SPL (which is a higher level).

There might be a few more, but don't think there's "plenty more". Not that it'd matter in the slightest anyway. Some of our SPL clubs will only be able to attract English players from League Two or below - some will be signing POTY from Premiership clubs - so what?

Well, depends how you define "same level". It'd make no sense for Hamitlon to ever compete with Manchester United for players - the level of club they are competing with may well be a league two club (or a poor league one club).

There are plenty of players deemed not good enough for clubs here and who get in at decent clubs down south - Gregg Wylde was released by St. Mirren because he wasn't good enough - went to Plymouth and is now at Milwall in League One. Graham Carey was the same - not good enough for us but now Plymouths POTY.

So it's nonsensical to suggest Scottish clubs couldn't compete at league one or league two level given the flow of players makes it quite clear we could.

 

[rudebwoyben]

I don't think anyone said that they couldn't compete with League 2 clubs, that's the level I think most of them bar Celtic, Aberdeen, Sevco and Hearts are at.
To my mind those players moved across to the SPL from League 2 as an equivalent level, the SPL is generally not a higher level than League 2. I'm interested to know which Premiership club POTY have subsequently moved to the SPL!

 

[St. Juste]

I don't think anyone said that they couldn't compete with League 2 clubs, that's the level I think most of them bar Celtic, Aberdeen, Sevco and Hearts are at.
To my mind those players moved across to the SPL from League 2 as an equivalent level, the SPL is generally not a higher level than League 2. I'm interested to know which Premiership club POTY have subsequently moved to the SPL!

Saltire said every club, bar Celtic, was a Conference level club.

I'd actually place most of them at the top of league two, or around bottom - mid of league one. Some clubs like Hibs and Dundee United could easily be English Championship clubs, but Scottish football is very competitive and they are suffering from that - but fundamentally, two big clubs with big fanbases.

Joey Barton moved to Rangers, turning down a deal with Burnley.

Or, if you're willing to go back, Charlie Adam was hounded out of Rangers and two seasons later was in the shortlist for English Player of the Year (and should have won given it went, utterly bizarrely, to Scott Parker).

Also, there are some clubs, currently in the English Championship, like Rotherham, who are smaller than pretty much everyone in the SPL.

 

[SALTIRE]

Utd are a Championship club You include them but don't Dundee, despite them being the better Tayside team the last 3 years. As much as I love Dundee they are nowhere near English Championship level even with investment.

 

[rudebwoyben]

Rotherham are not smaller than every club in the SPL, although they are smaller than the likes of Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs. Burton Albion are pretty much the size of a Hamilton Academical or Partick Thistle though.
Actually, I don't think we're disagreeing that much. And if the SPL clubs are now able to run themselves sustainably (which they seem to be doing) then they're doing alright for themselves.

 

[St. Juste]

Utd are a Championship club You include them but don't Dundee, despite them being the better Tayside team the last 3 years. As much as I love Dundee they are nowhere near English Championship level even with investment.

Which is why I emphasized club not team. People say Scottish football is not competitive but recently (and still currently) we have some of the nations biggest clubs in the second tier. They are being usurped by smaller, better managed clubs with lesser budgets - it's a very positive state of affairs actually.

Dundee are probably around a league one club, as their transfers indicate - certainly not all Conference teams as you claimed earlier.

Rotherham are not smaller than every club in the SPL, although they are smaller than the likes of Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs. Burton Albion are pretty much the size of a Hamilton Academical or Partick Thistle though.
Actually, I don't think we're disagreeing that much. And if the SPL clubs are now able to run themselves sustainably (which they seem to be doing) then they're doing alright for themselves.

Yeah, I would say they are pretty much smaller actually = smaller stadium than Kilmarnock, Motherwell etc.

If theoretically in the English leagues with good management these teams could certainly get into, and compete in, the Championship. And given Bournemouth are now in the Premier League, the sky would theoretically be the limit for biggish clubs like Hearts and Aberdeen.

And yeah, your final point is totally correct. There was a time recently when Scottish clubs poached the top players from England side, Gazza, Butcher, Van Bronckhorst etc. - it wasn't a good thing, it was actually one of the lowest points in our game and sowed the seed for Rangers, Dundee etc. to go into administration. I much prefer the current model that emphasizes home grown development and sustainability - most of our sides are debt free, and we are not completely beholden to TV money like most of English football.

The problem we still have, unfortunately, is the running of the game leaves a terrible amount to be desired. The empitome being Neil Doncaster, the only man to ever go on TV, savage his product and not resign. If we had even 1% of the marketing capability and nouse of those running the Premier League we'd be in a far stronger position.

 

[rudebwoyben]

Neil Doncaster, the guy who tried to keep Sevco in the SPL..
Is he worse than Mark Delaney of the FAI?
I definitely think that the mad rush for the Premiership that the Championship clubs in England take part in is definitely alarming and not sustainable in the long-term.

 

[DarkSithLord]

I don't know what happened there!
Anyway, Dean Brill, Ross Draper, Carl Tremarco, Owain Fon Williams, Louis Moult and Marvin Johnson moved directly from League 2/National League clubs to the SPL.

Add to that Josh Law and Ben Heneghan.

 

[Leo]

Neil Doncaster, the guy who tried to keep Sevco in the SPL..
Is he worse than Mark Delaney of the FAI?
I definitely think that the mad rush for the Premiership that the Championship clubs in England take part in is definitely alarming and not sustainable in the long-term.

Sevco ? You mean Rangers....If you mean Rangers just say it...it's not difficult unless you have a problem with it ?

Sevco ffs!

 

[rudebwoyben]

Sevco, Sevco, Sevco..

 

[Leo]

Sevco, Sevco, Sevco..

you do realise such a response simply makes you look childish & very foolish. But hey, it's yourself that has to live with your lack of intelligent comment.....

 

[cufc17]

I sometimes wonder where we (Carlisle) would place in the Scottish divisions, surely the top tier? It'd also give us an outside shot at European football

Queen of the South aren't far away so it's nice to see them starting the season off brightly, with Stephen Dobbie in amongst the goals.

 

[SALTIRE]

Christ Dundee are struggling at the moment.

 

[Leo]

I sometimes wonder where we (Carlisle) would place in the Scottish divisions, surely the top tier? It'd also give us an outside shot at European football

Queen of the South aren't far away so it's nice to see them starting the season off brightly, with Stephen Dobbie in amongst the goals.

I watched their game against Linfield last Sunday (Scottish Challenge Cup) and they were absolutely woeful as were Linfield.....as you can imagine it was a bog awful game.

 

[Leo]

Christ Dundee are struggling at the moment.

I noticed your wee status message mate. Have you seen highlights of the match on SSN ? Motherwell were very unlucky not to take the lead...guy crossed, Dundee keeper caught the ball as he was falling backwards took the ball well over the line but quickly brought his hands forward & the 'goal' was not given. Dundee very lucky there.

 

[SALTIRE]

I noticed your wee status message mate. Have you seen highlights of the match on SSN ? Motherwell were very unlucky not to take the lead...guy crossed, Dundee keeper caught the ball as he was falling backwards took the ball well over the line but quickly brought his hands forward & the 'goal' was not given. Dundee very lucky there.

Yeah I know, we haven't been playing well and had some bad luck along the way as well. Nice to get a rub of the green for a change! Second straight win and off the bottom of the table though, we are not dead and buried just yet!