Should the monarchy be abolished?

[blade1889]

I don't want a debate, I want to laugh at your stupid opinions.

Ok.

Clearly I've fallen into the trap of a professional WUM whose job is to make stupid points and entice poor innocent people like me into their trap. Damn it. Being a WUM of course you actually agree with me deep down and are just being contrary, for that reason alone I hope you never support any of my arguments.

 

[merseyboyred]

Ok. Have you never benefited from your parents? Personally I'd hate it if that ever happened, working nd then the state taking everything I own once I'm dead without a penny going to my children. Not the house, furniture that may have been in the family for generations. Would be awful.

My mum gave me a bit of money at uni when my student loan came in late. Not yet inherited the rule of a country with 60 million citizens because of the family I happened to be born into, or to a lesser degree a 5 bedroom house worth £800k that I did nothing to earn apart from being born.

 

[blade1889]

My mum gave me a bit of money at uni when my student loan came in late. Not yet inherited the rule of a country with 60 million citizens because of the family I happened to be born into, or to a lesser degree a 5 bedroom house worth £800k that I did nothing to earn apart from being born.

The rule of a country /democracy has been done to death

I'm sure if you ask your mum she'd want to leave you something when she's gone? Which the original point about LotP agreeing with 100% inheritance tax would stop.

If I work hard, own an 850k house id want it to be passed on to my children, would you not?

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

in terms of government transparency, 5 of the top 10 are constitutional monarchies, and france and the u.s. don't feature at all. in the list of average years spent in school by a woman (a good way to judge gender equality), 5 of the top 10 are constitutional monarchies. in terms of the % of healthcare covered by the government, 7 of the top 10 are constitutional monarchies, and the u.s. and france again don't feature. in the list of countries by long-term unemployment, out of the top 10 countries with the least, 6 are constitutional monarchies, and the u.s. and france again do not feature.

point of mentioning france and the u.s. is hopefully obvious

denmark, sweden, luxembourg, norway, the ANZAC countries, canada, netherlands, belgium and to a lesser extent spain, and, yes, us, all feature very highly in most ratings of quality of life, education, equality and press and societal freedoms. could be easy to argue it's in spite of the monarchy instead of cause of it, but that ain't exactly a nuanced approach. orwell once argued that a monarch, particularly a powerless figurehead like ours, acts as sort of a release valve for the right-wing. they can get all hoo-rah and nationalistic about an institution that can and does do nothing. case in point fascism winning out in the republics of inter-war europe rather than the nominal monarchies. the head of state shouldn't actually be political, just a final check on power of the head of government. an election makes it political. continuity ties in with the concept of nationhood, a check on the power of the government is the country, the culture the permanent - checking the temporary body politic. a supposedly incorruptible head of state isn't possible with a president type system. the monarchy are already rich as fuck and already have their lineage secured. they can't be politicised since they already got it made, so as a final check on the excesses of power it's probably fine and dandy

the fact also remains that the mewling masses of the world love all the pomp and ceremony. u send the queen abroad people stand up and take notice. u send any random tory white dude people faceplant their soup. in a strictly utilitarian society there'd be no royal family, no funding for arts, or sport or anything. we'd look like milton keynes, or worse yet some portmanteu of france and america. royals don't necessarily represent a policy or a government, they represent the people and are (or should be) apolitical. they can function as ambassadors in a positive way. send cameron off to a country that's a political issue. who he's meeting/what he's saying/what he had for lunch is endlessly, negatively scrutinised. send william off everyone wets their knickers and dreams of fairytale weddings in big fluffy castles. soft power's the word innit

that being said i say kill em all off and have the monarchy elected via a gameshow format anyone could apply for. or assign the titles by lottery. i wanna be queen of england

 

[merseyboyred]

The rule of a country /democracy has been done to death

I'm sure if you ask your mum she'd want to leave you something when she's gone? Which the original point about LotP agreeing with 100% inheritance tax would stop.

If I work hard, own an 850k house id want it to be passed on to my children, would you not?

It hasn't really, else it'd be no more.

Why should people be given immediate advantage simply because of the wealth of the family they were born into?

 

[blade1889]

It hasn't really, else it'd be no more.

Why should people be given immediate advantage simply because of the wealth of the family they were born into?

OK, its been done so much I can't be arsed repeating myself.

Why should I work hard then not have anything to leave behind, after my death, to my children? We're starting to get into a socialist Vs capitalist argument which is probably best off on another thread? My general view though is that whilst the ideologies may be nice and I'd agree with them the practice is not so and not possible unless we do get into a communist debate.

 

[Gladders]

It hasn't really, else it'd be no more.

Why should people be given immediate advantage simply because of the wealth of the family they were born into?

Why should people have nothing because their parents died?

 

[smat]

in terms of government transparency, 5 of the top 10 are constitutional monarchies, and france and the u.s. don't feature at all. in the list of average years spent in school by a woman (a good way to judge gender equality), 5 of the top 10 are constitutional monarchies. in terms of the % of healthcare covered by the government, 7 of the top 10 are constitutional monarchies, and the u.s. and france again don't feature. in the list of countries by long-term unemployment, out of the top 10 countries with the least, 6 are constitutional monarchies, and the u.s. and france again do not feature.

point of mentioning france and the u.s. is hopefully obvious

denmark, sweden, luxembourg, norway, the ANZAC countries, canada, netherlands, belgium and to a lesser extent spain, and, yes, us, all feature very highly in most ratings of quality of life, education, equality and press and societal freedoms. could be easy to argue it's in spite of the monarchy instead of cause of it, but that ain't exactly a nuanced approach. orwell once argued that a monarch, particularly a powerless figurehead like ours, acts as sort of a release valve for the right-wing. they can get all hoo-rah and nationalistic about an institution that can and does do nothing. case in point fascism winning out in the republics of inter-war europe rather than the nominal monarchies. the head of state shouldn't actually be political, just a final check on power of the head of government. an election makes it political. continuity ties in with the concept of nationhood, a check on the power of the government is the country, the culture the permanent - checking the temporary body politic. a supposedly incorruptible head of state isn't possible with a president type system. the monarchy are already rich as fuck and already have their lineage secured. they can't be politicised since they already got it made, so as a final check on the excesses of power it's probably fine and dandy

the fact also remains that the mewling masses of the world love all the pomp and ceremony. u send the queen abroad people stand up and take notice. u send any random tory white dude people faceplant their soup. in a strictly utilitarian society there'd be no royal family, no funding for arts, or sport or anything. we'd look like milton keynes, or worse yet some portmanteu of france and america. royals don't necessarily represent a policy or a government, they represent the people and are (or should be) apolitical. they can function as ambassadors in a positive way. send cameron off to a country that's a political issue. who he's meeting/what he's saying/what he had for lunch is endlessly, negatively scrutinised. send william off everyone wets their knickers and dreams of fairytale weddings in big fluffy castles. soft power's the word innit

that being said i say kill em all off and have the monarchy elected via a gameshow format anyone could apply for. or assign the titles by lottery. i wanna be queen of england

Hi Ian, big fan of yours here. Long term reader, first time replier.

I found a lot of that interesting, particly the pressure valve stuff, and I def agree with the stuff about royals being better to send abroad than politicians or diplomats, but the stuff about girls in school etc is a case of correlation not necessarily implying causation. Imo.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Hi Ian, big fan of yours here. Long term reader, first time replier.

I found a lot of that interesting, particly the pressure valve stuff, and I def agree with the stuff about royals being better to send abroad than politicians or diplomats, but the stuff about girls in school etc is a case of correlation not necessarily implying causation. Imo.

the 'best countries' (scandinavia, benelux etc.) have done well by embracing some aspect of marxian derived political ideology. nordic social democracy, atlee's labour party etc. the success of this progressive marxism, vs the abject failure of asian, latin american and african marxism, is due to the monarch, i believe. if there is a check on power, u avoid 'big man politics'. u remove the big man-monarch (or big ladyarch in our case) u can achieve, more easily, a cult of personality and sole rule. marxism and democracy are more easily synthesised when u keep some vestige of the prior political system, such as a nominal figurehead. marxism with a big m failed in russia and elsewhere cause they created a completely new system, society and state, which creates long-term fractures

monarch = easier success of socialism and socialism = a good country. not quite causative but close enough

 

[JoeJoeJoeJoe]

All men* are created equal, just some more equal than others.


* or women, may use people or undefined/unspecified gender as appropriate so as to not cause offence

Scott Steiner was not created equal.

 

[smat]

the 'best countries' (scandinavia, benelux etc.) have done well by embracing some aspect of marxian derived political ideology. nordic social democracy, atlee's labour party etc. the success of this progressive marxism, vs the abject failure of asian, latin american and african marxism, is due to the monarch, i believe. if there is a check on power, u avoid 'big man politics'. u remove the big man-monarch (or big ladyarch in our case) u can achieve, more easily, a cult of personality and sole rule. marxism and democracy are more easily synthesised when u keep some vestige of the prior political system, such as a nominal figurehead. marxism with a big m failed in russia and elsewhere cause they created a completely new system, society and state, which creates long-term fractures

monarch = easier success of socialism and socialism = a good country. not quite causative but close enough

Very interesting, thanks. And can I just say again what a massive fan of yours I am. Thanks.

 

[Pliny Harris]

I know there's an inexhaustible number of Americans named Trudy and Clive who come over to li'l ol' England to meet our queen, but how many decide it's worth going to Norway to coo over *googles* King Harald V?

 

[smat]

Are there many Americans called Clive?

 

[mowgli]

I'd like to see less Royals being paid for diong fuck all, what does Edward do exactly except wear medals he's not entitled to and Andrew just wants to play golf every day.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

the 'best countries' (scandinavia, benelux etc.) have done well by embracing some aspect of marxian derived political ideology. nordic social democracy, atlee's labour party etc. the success of this progressive marxism, vs the abject failure of asian, latin american and african marxism, is due to the monarch, i believe. if there is a check on power, u avoid 'big man politics'. u remove the big man-monarch (or big ladyarch in our case) u can achieve, more easily, a cult of personality and sole rule. marxism and democracy are more easily synthesised when u keep some vestige of the prior political system, such as a nominal figurehead. marxism with a big m failed in russia and elsewhere cause they created a completely new system, society and state, which creates long-term fractures

monarch = easier success of socialism and socialism = a good country. not quite causative but close enough

U make an interesting point here.

But seriously, this is a really interesting aspect I'd never ever considered looking at before.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

me neither i'm just making it up as i go along

seriously though if u support an actual fucking monarch in the 21st century u suck i'm just playing devil's advocate ere

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

For the record I am the Queen.

I am head of state and the church.

#forevercombined

 

[blade1889]

me neither i'm just making it up as i go along

seriously though if u support an actual fucking monarch in the 21st century u suck i'm just playing devil's advocate ere

lol very good. File it with the other 96% of stats that are made up on the spot.

I can live with that

 

[lordofthepies]

i wanna be queen of england

You'll always be Queen of our hearts, Ian.

 

[lordofthepies]

Ok. Have you never benefited from your parents? Personally I'd hate it if that ever happened, working nd then the state taking everything I own once I'm dead without a penny going to my children. Not the house, furniture that may have been in the family for generations. Would be awful.

My Mum occasionally lends me some money and I probably will get a 1/4 share of her house and stuff when she dies but I don't expect and I don't care if she leaves everything to a cat shelter. In all seriousness, I do think there should be a certain amount of property that should be exempt from inheritance tax - say £250,000? Everything after that should go back to the state though.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

piez doesn't rely on his parents financially he's a big boy now

he relies on his gf

 

[lordofthepies]

Are there many Americans called Clive?

Interesting little article here, which states that 53 were born in the US in 2011, compared to just 4 in the UK.

http://upswingbabynames.com/2012/10/spotlight-on-clive/

 

[blade1889]

My Mum occasionally lends me some money and I probably will get a 1/4 share of her house and stuff when she dies but I don't expect and I don't care if she leaves everything to a cat shelter. In all seriousness, I do think there should be a certain amount of property that should be exempt from inheritance tax - say £250,000? Everything after that should go back to the state though.

That's an argument I can understand even if I don't agree with it. Personally think it would be fraught with problems in practice. Avoidance would be rife and how do you deal with individual assets greater than 250K?

 

[smat]

Interesting little article here, which states that 53 were born in the US in 2011, compared to just 4 in the UK.

http://upswingbabynames.com/2012/10/spotlight-on-clive/

Yes but there are more people in America you piece of shit.

 

[lordofthepies]

Yes but there are more people in America you piece of shit.

Woah! I wasn't having a pop at you I just thought it may interest you! Sorry for any offence, buddy.

 

[smat]

FUck. Really sorry. Was still a bit hot under the collar about the whole blade1889 stuff. Once again, very sorry.

 

[lordofthepies]

I understand why you were wound up. All is forgiven.

 

[smat]

Phew. All's well that ends well

Now we just have to hope the Queen fucking dies.

 

[blade1889]

Woah! I wasn't having a pop at you I just thought it may interest you! Sorry for any offence, buddy.

You should just put him on ignore. Makes it a lot easier.

 

[smat]

Shut up you c***.