Tax Avoidance

[Dave-Vale]

George Osbornes fathers company have paid nothing in corporation tax since 2008. They received a £12,000 rebate in 2010. Unreal.

 

[Tilbury]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/57b5d40e-c4eb-11e5-b3b1-7b2481276e45.html#axzz3yZDZOJyT
Google and Apple at it.

 

[smat]

The Panama Papers, am I right guys? Does our Prime Minister, like his poppa, have assets protected from UK tax by nefarious offshore means? He says he doesn't. Does it even matter if he does? If he's not done anything illegal, has he done anything wrong? Is it, unlike Jimmy Carr's tax affairs, a 'private matter' and none of our business?

What do u think

 

[Red]

Sorry, couldn't resist

'Hello, my name's Graham'

Mine''s a pint. It's not here, it's not here...that's the bear again' lol

 

[Dave-Vale]

Caneron and other world leaders get caught up in a tax avoidance scandal and the Telegraph are more bothered about Corbyn going to Glastonbury. Wow.

 

[sl1k]

We're all in it together are we Dave. Well apparently not, you odious c***.

 

[Aber gas]

They're fucked and they know it. ( cue everyone telling me it's a long time till the next general election )

 

[blade1889]

They're fucked and they know it. ( cue everyone telling me it's a long time till the next general election )

Its a long time and (more importantly a leadership change) till the general election...we had stories of 'london burning' early on in the last Tory term and wide spread student protests but 4 years later it had all but been forgotten about. Tories doing the most damaging things early on in a political term is no surprise cos they know in the next 3/4 years they can then go back to being 'nice' (relative expression I appreciate) and most people will have a recency over latency memory recall.

As for the Panama papers I dont really blame the individuals for exploiting loopholes... the loopholes shouldn't be there. I dont think Dave's dad (who I think was doing it for the last 30 years? So well before his son gained power...so you cant argue his son created this loophole to benefit his family) should have a baring on him as a PM necessarily, although it obvs looks bad and will.

 

[Aber gas]

Its a long time and (more importantly a leadership change) till the general election...we had stories of 'london burning' early on in the last Tory term and wide spread student protests but 4 years later it had all but been forgotten about. Tories doing the most damaging things early on in a political term is no surprise cos they know in the next 3/4 years they can then go back to being 'nice' (relative expression I appreciate) and most people will have a recency over latency memory recall.

As for the Panama papers I dont really blame the individuals for exploiting loopholes... the loopholes shouldn't be there. I dont think Dave's dad (who I think was doing it for the last 30 years? So well before his son gained power...so you cant argue his son created this loophole to benefit his family) should have a baring on him as a PM necessarily, although it obvs looks bad and will.

It has a bearing because the Tory party made a massive deal over milliband snrs involvement in the the communist movement. It works both ways.
It's different to the student protests last time out. This issue effects people who are traditional Tory voters, imagine being prudent all your life. Paying your taxes and planning for your retirement and suddenly it appears that it's all bullshit.

 

[blade1889]

I honestly cant even remember Millibands dad and the communist link at all. And what would Labour say anyway? Your former leaders dad dodged tax? Not as relevant as actual leader and if I'm being honest would easily be torn apart as clutching at straws.

I really don't see how it does tbf. We've always known tax avoidance (evasion? Always forget the semantics) occurs and that the wealthier you are the more it happens, I dont see how that has changed. Also aren't your traditional (or at least stereotypical) Tory voters the ones that are most likely to be exploiting these loopholes!?

 

[Aber gas]

I honestly cant even remember Millibands dad and the communist link at all. And what would Labour say anyway? Your former leaders dad dodged tax? Not as relevant as actual leader and if I'm being honest would easily be torn apart as clutching at straws.

I really don't see how it does tbf. We've always known tax avoidance (evasion? Always forget the semantics) occurs and that the wealthier you are the more it happens, I dont see how that has changed. Also aren't your traditional (or at least stereotypical) Tory voters the ones that are most likely to be exploiting these loopholes!?

no, the traditional Tory voters ( the swing votes) have always seen the Tory party as steady on the economy, fair ( as far as it goes) and if there is a bit of corruption ( it doesn't effect me) when your basic premise is " in it together" and it's then revealed that your leader has benefited from off shore tax havens. Well it's a bit of a shitter. Same as claiming to be the party of economic prudence and getting your budget sums wrong.
It's one thing to plunge people into misery for the "greater good" but if you still can't make it work then maybe it wasn't the right policy in the first place.

 

[Tilbury]

The loop holes have to be closed or else this practice will continue but I absolutely blame the individuals. What kind of selfish, greedy bastard must you be if you deliberately go out of your way to hide your millions or billions knowing by do so you're screwing over people with nothing/ very little.

 

[blade1889]

The loop holes have to be closed or else this practice will continue but I absolutely blame the individuals. What kind of selfish, greedy bastard must you be if you deliberately go out of your way to hide your millions or billions knowing by do so you're screwing over people with nothing/ very little.

Say my tax bill was £1mill and an accountant came to me and said I can make it £100k and you pay me £20k I would more than likely take it, as I'm sure many others would in that situation even if they don't admit it. If I was playing for Sheffield United and a prem team offered me triple my wages, I'd go. I'm not doing anything illegal, I'm trying to get more money for an even nicer lifestyle for me and my family on top of an already very nice lifestyle. Aye you are absolutely right to say I'm greedy but presented with that temptation theres plenty that would do the same. When the government are taking however many times the contribution you're avoiding paying do you see your tiny percentage making much difference? Not really, you don't see a budget and think 'my 900k would've stopped x being cut' the same way as I wouldn't look and see 'my £1mill has funded that'.

I'm disagreeing that loopholes should be closed to avoid those temptations though.

 

[blade1889]

no, the traditional Tory voters ( the swing votes) have always seen the Tory party as steady on the economy, fair ( as far as it goes) and if there is a bit of corruption ( it doesn't effect me) when your basic premise is " in it together" and it's then revealed that your leader has benefited from off shore tax havens. Well it's a bit of a shitter. Same as claiming to be the party of economic prudence and getting your budget sums wrong.
It's one thing to plunge people into misery for the "greater good" but if you still can't make it work then maybe it wasn't the right policy in the first place.

I'm not sure people choose the Tory party over Labour for fairness tbh. Economic prudence? Sure and the Tory party will easily point to labour governments who haven't done anything to stop tax avoidance either. If they get forced into making some small change know they'll more than likely big up that they've actually help limit avoidance where labour governments have failed. On top of that if I'm voting for economic reasons and decide the Tories have the most workable economics I dont see tax avoidance coming into it massively...especially when the typical Tory rhetoric is to protect the big business and big earners cos they give the working class their wages, cut one and the other gets cut too (being their argument...not necessarily mine)

 

[nousername]

I'd guess that the majority of the people named are quite unaware of where their money goes. They'll be handing it over to a Financial Adviser who will go away and find the most tax friendly location to park their clients money, which is entirely logical.

I'm not saying that justifies any illegal behaviour - but the Panama loopholes probably just falls under the umbrella of 'Aggressive Tax Avoidance' whatever that means. Politicians should obviously be self-aware enough to realise the political blow-back in the event someone does find out, quite how the Iceland Prime Minister thought selling his company to his wife for $1 was a good idea is beyond me...

We live in a world where the tax system was developed in an era of manufacturing and limited globalisation. Not the way it is now with slippery customers like Facebook, where it is difficult to place the location of their sales. There was a good poster on here a while ago, who knew the tax system inside out (can't remember their name) and regularly gave LF a sound kicking on the matter of public sector pensions. Would be interested to hear there take on this.

 

[Habbinalan]

 

[mente captus]

cant wait to see which germans are doing an 'Uli Hoeneß'

 

[Womble98]

Do people think he will resign?

 

[blade1889]

I reckon he'll hold out till after the EU vote, only dangerous thing for the Tories Imo is if he does leave after the EU vote and that increases the calls to trigger a new GE before they've had time to sort themselves out again

 

[JimJams]

We're all in it together are we Dave. Well apparently not, you odious c***.

Bit harsh on Dave-Vale I thought.

 

[silkyman]

So he's admitted having a stake in the company which he sold just before being elected.

So not only did he benefit from this while running to be PM... When pulled up on it, he outright lied.

 

[smat]

So he's admitted having a stake in the company which he sold just before being elected.

So not only did he benefit from this while running to be PM... When pulled up on it, he outright lied.

Did he? He said he doesn't currently have a stake in the company. Then he said he didn't stand to gain from such a company in the future. He obfuscated rather than lied. I don't think this is a resigning matter really.

 

[Stevencc]

We're all in it together are we Dave. Well apparently not, you odious c***.

Speak for yourself mate, I've got myself a nice little tax haven on the go so he's with me.

 

[Pyeman]

Do people think he will resign?

As far as I can see there's no reason for him to resign. Despite these latest revelations there seems to be little pressure on him to go.

The problem is, if Cameron goes for having dodgy tax affairs, who do we replace him with? I bet finding an MP with fully legitimate tax affairs is about as easy as finding Luke Chadwick a girlfriend.

For the time being at least it would seem that DC is indestructible. Like Captain Scarlet.

 

[silkyman]

If Captain Scarlett had fucked a pig... Obv.

 

[Pyeman]

If Captain Scarlett had fucked a pig... Obv.

He might well have. Captain Scarlet does what he wants.

Anna Soubry claiming on QT that Cameron's dodgy dealings were actually a perfectly legitimate investment.

I'm no economist, so can some clarify - was what DC did actually illegal, just a bit naughty or completely fine?

 

[blade1889]

It wasn't illegal, they exploit a tax loophole that is a completely legit thing to do. Whether these loopholes should remain is completely different though.

And whether you think it is completely fine is entirely personal, I find it hard to get on my high horse about it as if someone presented me with an option to, legally, not pay tax I'm pretty sure I'd take it.

 

[Pyeman]

It wasn't illegal, they exploit a tax loophole that is a completely legit thing to do. Whether these loopholes should remain is completely different though.

And whether you think it is completely fine is entirely personal, I find it hard to get on my high horse about it as if someone presented me with an option to, legally, not pay tax I'm pretty sure I'd take it.

Am I right in thinking that's tax avoidance, rather than tax evasion?

As you point out it seems that this is debate of morality rather than legality. A much more uncertain ground for any debate, and something that Cameron will no doubt try to use to his advantage to dodge any political bullets.

 

[blade1889]

Am I right in thinking that's tax avoidance, rather than tax evasion?

As you point out it seems that this is debate of morality rather than legality. A much more uncertain ground for any debate, and something that Cameron will no doubt try to use to his advantage to dodge any political bullets.

Essentially, yes. Although its not always black & white

http://www.theweek.co.uk/prosper/pe...evasion-or-tax-avoidance-whats-the-difference

 

[Renegade]

It wasn't illegal, they exploit a tax loophole that is a completely legit thing to do. Whether these loopholes should remain is completely different though.

And whether you think it is completely fine is entirely personal, I find it hard to get on my high horse about it as if someone presented me with an option to, legally, not pay tax I'm pretty sure I'd take it.

Would you take the option if you had desires on leading the country one day? Those in charge should be held to the highest standard, something that is quite clearly morally dubious (especially for someone as wealthy and powerful as Cameron was before becoming PM) should result in some sort of punitive action.

Leaders should be an example, there is a huge difference in the average Joe dodging tax and David Cameron. You're right, the loophole shouldn't exist and technically it's legal, but anytime the words "offshore account" or "tax haven" are mentioned, we know what's going on. I don't know how he can be taken seriously after ranting about the very same thing he and his family were guilty of exploiting.

If Clinton can get impeached for lying about a blowie and Cameron gets away from this scot-free, there is much wrong with the world.