The 4-2-3-1 is killing football

[mistermagic]

I do agree that the 4231 has ran its course. I think the man playing behind the striker is in a very thankless position in that he is man marked by the DM (a still very underrated position in modern football) and when he does find some space, he's got a CM and one of the CBs running at him to close down said space.
I applaud managers who have embraced with a diamond shaped 442 and made it evolve the way it is now. A decade ago, it was simply a DM, two wingers who wouldn't comme off their lines (a concept thankfully lost these days) and an AM. It was ineffective because it didn't feed the two strikers up front but also because 433/451 was beginning to be a thing and the 442s were losing the midfield battles. Now it's almost like a 433 in that the AM is in the same line as the two forwards and the two wingers are CMs that are assigned a non-central position (without them being wingers).
This leaves us with the 433. I think it's the best formation of the lot. The 3 midfield play pretty deep which allows them time on the ball while you see the wingers (who are actual wingers but most are meant to cut inside which makes them wide AMs) interchanging several times during a game. The CF is also not encouraged to play up front on his own waiting for things to happen.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Sort of what Phil says, I think 4-3-3 is the best formation. If I was a manager I wouldn't play another system. Incidentally I think the DM is the key player in that fomation. But I don't think 4-2-3-1 has run its course, nowhere near. I'll offer a better analysis tomorrow as I've spent the evening at the pub, but essentially with a good AM, he can run the show.

 

[G.B]

Depends on the players at your disposal surely? Pointless playing 4-3-3 if you have a number 10 in our squad. The idea that a certain system has run its course seems mental to me, you play to your strengths no matter the system.

 

[elnino65]

Newcastle played a defensive 4-2-3-1, aka 4-4-1-1, with their wingers still being as versatile as they would be in an exact 4-2-3-1. Another match ruined. More to do with defensive resilience than open football. Fantastic work ethic by Newcastle, nevermind the onside goal disallowed, newcastle stuck to their gameplan and produced another cringe result this season, just at liverpool's expense this time.

 

[JimJams]

Depends on the players at your disposal surely? Pointless playing 4-3-3 if you have a number 10 in our squad. The idea that a certain system has run its course seems mental to me, you play to your strengths no matter the system.

True, the 4-4-2 was all but dead in the eyes of everyone. Then Atletico won the league with it and it's back in fashion.

 

[elnino65]

Are you on a personal mission to get the high score for 'sheer volume of fallacious statements' on one thread?

sorry I didn't realize there was a rule saying that I can't state my opinions in a civilized way.

 

[elnino65]

I really don't have the time to dissect the various contradictory notions you've floated, so I will leave you with a question.

If the CL is becoming a closed shop of a few clubs from outside England, what do two of the three contenders play with as their formation?

what contenders of the premier league or contenders of the champions league? btw, I think you even accept and know in your heart of hearts, premier leagues top clubs are being dragged down by other clubs who are jumping on the bandwagon of a formation that is incredibly reliable for giving you a chance. Well if they are playing a defensive version of 4-2-3-1 as newcastle did, it's harder, but I suggest a 4-1-2-2-1, basically a 4-3-2-1, just with a DM dropping deeper. But if it's an exact 4-2-3-1, then 4-4-2 diamond, or 4-2-2-2 can overcome it (PL).

 

[JimJams]

Then its up to those top clubs to use their superior ability to win those games then, if they have any.

 

[elnino65]

Then its up to those top clubs to use their superior ability to win those games then, if they have any.

well they vastly had it 2 seasons back didn't they? so I don't know why you question their superiority. the 4-2-3-1 is a leveller though. I believe only two top quality sides at most should use the 4-2-3-1.

 

[JimJams]

The league is more openly contested now because more clubs have the spending power to afford better players, it isn't just the top 4 that have a monopoly on buying expensive players. I don't believe a formation is a leveller at all. Certainly not to the degree that you're suggesting. If that's all it takes then the managers at the top clubs in England are truly absolute dross.

 

[elnino65]

The league is more openly contested now because more clubs have the spending power to afford better players, it isn't just the top 4 that have a monopoly on buying expensive players. I don't believe a formation is a leveller at all. Certainly not to the degree that you're suggesting. If that's all it takes then the managers at the top clubs in England are truly absolute dross.

yeah you have a point since the record tv deal, more mid table and non established PL teams have been able to spend more. If it's not a leveller then why every time I watch a match where one team uses a form of that formation, it's evenly contested. An indication it's evenly contested is also by looking at all the stats. Why are all the managers dross just because football is more business and results orientated, than entertainment orientated. I don't call looking a result and going Wow entertainment. I look at the match and see if there is that many clear cut chances, which there isn't really in this system. It's rigid counter attacking at best.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I think this sums up my thoughts.

 

[PDS]

Personally I think we should bring back the 19th century 1-2-7 favourite:

 

[mistermagic]

Ah yes. A rereversal of the pyramid. Great stuff. The WM was superb in its day as well.

 

[JoshBCFC]

I just mentioned the international because it has been the time I've watched him in most detail, obviously I've seen clips of his goals on match on the day. If the premier league was of any quality this season (comparable to previous seasons), you and I both know, the winner of the golden boot would be scoring at least 1 goal from outside the area, as a mark of what quality they possess, to beat a keeper from 20+ yards. Past seasons? When's that then 1980's? We're not in the 1980's this is the premier league and you don't just judge a player on the types of goals he is scoring. Which I'm not, I'm not making a value judgement, you put him in a top club and he would be on the bench. A team has to suit a players style, leicester do just that. Liverpool are even struggling with benteke to make him fit their style.

By past seasons, i meant like the last 5 seasons or so.
This player plays for a top club.
Like seriously, why the fuck does it matter if he scores from outside the box or not? If he scores goals in any way possible he's in my team.
Define what you mean by a top club. Top English club, or one of the best teams in the world?

 

[Son of Cod]

and how long does your team intend on playing 4-2-3-1? until it comes up against 4-4-2 diamond and gets beat 6-1 like southampton lost to liverpool by

I take it you didn't watch that game? If you did, you would have known that Wanyama played at the back as one of three CBs. Straying away from their usual system cost them the game.

 

[Trapdoor]

Paul Tisdale comin' atcha with the "Rubiks Cube" 5-0-5

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35026447

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Tactics and formations are overrated. Man management is a far greater factor in a team's performance.

Discuss.

Give this man a biscuit.
Formations prompt great discussion on the internet, so great for the forum, but professional players who are intelligent and know how each other play (through coaching), can do that in any number of systems. A formation can be one thing on paper, but any decent team will have players intelligent to know when they need to play more advanced or more conservatively.

 

[Smally]

I'd like to know which teams elnino has down as constantly playing 4-2-3-1 without changing shape at all. He probably includes Everton, because Match of the Day have us lined up in this system every week, but in reality we play 4-3-3 with the personnel to quickly switch between this, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-5-1 and even 3-4-3 at times. And I bet we aren't the only side capable of changing shape during games.

Believing 8/10 top ten teams play only 4-2-3-1 is frankly at best naive and at worst idiotic

 

[AtaturkOzgutson]

what contenders of the premier league or contenders of the champions league?

Champion's League. Even if you stretch it to 4 top contenders and include PSG, then it's 3 out 4. Or 2 out of 3.

 

[Stevencc]

I would just like to point out that United played a 4231 throughout the Champion's League and we didn't even get out of the groups.

Fucking shit c*** of a formation.

 

[merseyboyred]

People get way too hung up on having to rigidly label a formation when they transition fludily throughout games, as Smally says. It's all looking for an easy label. We've played a 4-2-3-1 most often under Klopp so far, but it isn't what you'd expect from a 4-2-3-1 written out like that. Under Rodgers, our diamond in 13/14 that people were clamouring for became a sort of 3-4-3/3-2-2-1-2 hybrid in possession, yet no-one would ever call it that.

Just because something is a nominal 4-2-3-1 doesn't mean that everyone who plays that is playing the same, it's extremely basic to think that way.