The great Poppy debate..

[St. Juste]

No, we don't do that but I have no problems with the Three Lions wearing this symbol at a football match. I stated it in my post with the remark "Just for information" that in Germany we remember the war deaths and victims of tyranny, too.

tbh, it's not up to me to "judge" about that. I am a citizen of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland and not the United Kingdom and for me it is important that we have this remembrance day in our country with a (silent) ceremony at our Parliament to remind us.
If the english team wants to wear this poppy at their match against my country....let 'em do that. I'm fine with that.

It is a inconsistent position that one side is using football as a remembrance occasion whilst the other, who by every metric suffered far more from conflict in the preceding century, is not.

But nevertheless, FIFA banned it because it could be construed as a political symbol and offensive. Would it be offensive were Japan to commemorate their war dead in a game versus China. Or for Serbia to commemorate their war dead in matches against Albania or Croatia. How about Russia versus Ukraine?

The answer to all of these is clearly - yes, it would be very offensive to many people involved. So why are certain nations allowed to commemorate their war dead during football, a very recent phenomenon in itself, and others are not?

Why did football starting caring so much about remembrance in recent years when they haven't shown it at all in the past? The Scotland England match in 1999 was on the 11th November and no poppies were worn by players. And nobody cared.

What has changed so much since then? Well, invasions of foreign countries and the government and the media utilising the poppy to absolve armed forces of blame for their actions during these invasions. A sickening twist on what it was originally intended for.

So if you think this is all fine you're a bit, well, daft.

 

[Leo]

Is the FA permitting Germany to wear a symbol of remembrance? If not, why not?



FIFA bottled it, I wonder if they would allow the Japanese national team to commemorate their war dead in a visit to China.



What, really? What an outstanding personal victory this is for you.

1) What FIFA permit Germany to do has nothing to do with this thread but par for the course you invent idiotic side shows in a pathetic attempt at deflection. As Bobbin said, wind yer neck in and show a bit of humility.

2) Oh I see....when FIFA said it was banned they were right and you were right. Now when they shall permit it to be worn they've bottled it but you are still right. Oh my fucking God....you are so vain it would take a a large Caterpillar excavator to remove to your brains from your arse.......

3) Just shows the shite you were blethering was, well.....shite.......

PS.....love it.....

 

[Leo]

It is a inconsistent position that one side is using football as a remembrance occasion whilst the other, who by every metric suffered far more from conflict in the preceding century, is not.

But nevertheless, FIFA banned it because it could be construed as a political symbol and offensive. Would it be offensive were Japan to commemorate their war dead in a game versus China. Or for Serbia to commemorate their war dead in matches against Albania or Croatia. How about Russia versus Ukraine?

The answer to all of these is clearly - yes, it would be very offensive to many people involved. So why are certain nations allowed to commemorate their war dead during football, a very recent phenomenon in itself, and others are not?

Why did football starting caring so much about remembrance in recent years when they haven't shown it at all in the past? The Scotland England match in 1999 was on the 11th November and no poppies were worn by players. And nobody cared.

What has changed so much since then? Well, invasions of foreign countries and the government and the media utilising the poppy to absolve armed forces of blame for their actions during these invasions. A sickening twist on what it was originally intended for.

So if you think this is all fine you're a bit, well, daft.

You tried all that shite previously and showed yourself up......

St Juste....Attributes....I am always correct and everybody else is wrong.................until I am shown up for the egotist that I am and that my reasoning is always shown to be flawed.

Just boy's reaction on hearing FIFA disagree with him......

 

[St. Juste]

1) What FIFA permit Germany to do has nothing to do with this thread but par for the course you invent idiotic side shows in a pathetic attempt at deflection. As Bobbin said, wind yer neck in and show a bit of humility.

2) Oh I see....when FIFA said it was banned they were right and you were right. Now when they shall permit it to be worn they've bottled it but you are still right. Oh my fucking God....you are so vain it would take a a large Caterpillar excavator to remove to your brains from your arse.......

3) Just shows the shite you were blethering was, well.....shite.......

PS.....love it.....

Humility? I have absolutely no impact on FIFA or its decision - neither do you. Which is why you considering this a personal victory is, well, quite funny.

But nevertheless, unless you want to actually address any of my points, rather than celebrating your "victory" I don't know what else I can say.

You tried all that shite previously and showed yourself up......

St Juste....Attributes....I am always correct and everybody else is wrong.................until I am shown up for the egotist that I am and that my reasoning is always shown to be flawed.

Just boy's reaction on hearing FIFA disagree with him......

Showed myself up? You admitted you don't care what other nations think, or if they would be offended by any of these symbols. So we're approaching it from very different perspectives, me considering the impact of such a decision in a wider context and you just saying you want it, just cause.

This won't go anywhere, enjoy your great personal "victory" though. Probably one of the crowing achievements of your life to date, I would expect.

 

[Bobbin']

Is the FA permitting Germany to wear a symbol of remembrance? If not, why not?

Presumably Germany haven't asked and if they had I highly doubt the FA would have any issue.

The answer to all of these is clearly - yes, it would be very offensive to many people involved. So why are certain nations allowed to commemorate their war dead during football, a very recent phenomenon in itself, and others are not?

So many things wrong in this.

If the opposing FA have agreed, they're clearly not offended.

Who isn't allowed?

 

[Leo]

Humility? I have absolutely no impact on FIFA or its decision - neither do you. Which is why you considering this a personal victory is, well, quite funny.

But nevertheless, unless you want to actually address any of my points, rather than celebrating your "victory" I don't know what else I can say.



Showed myself up? You admitted you don't care what other nations think, or if they would be offended by any of these symbols. So we're approaching it from very different perspectives, me considering the impact of such a decision in a wider context and you just saying you want it, just cause.

This won't go anywhere, enjoy your great personal "victory" though. Probably one of the crowing achievements of your life to date, I would expect.

1) Once again you misinterpret what I say....but that's not unusual for you. The actual change of mind by FIFA on this subject is no victory to me. The fact that you spouted so much irrelevant shite (far more than was really necessary) to somehow back up FIFA's stance and that FIFA were initially correct but are now incorrect according to you is actually why I am gleeful on this occasion because I knew you would be incandescent with anger as all your futile 'examples' have been shown to be simply figments of your rather extended imagination Justy lad. I know that you don't know what else you can say....because outwith any slavering you are so familiar with...there is actually nothing, nowt, nada that you can......

2) As a riposte your last sentence is weaker than cat's piss. You actually think that showing you up (again) is a crowning (i take it that's what you mean) achievement in my life ? You do me a disservice Justy....it's like taking sweets from a baby and that aint up in my top ten matey......

Your verbal meanderings have crossed paths with the road to nowhere.

 

[Aber gas]

 

[St. Juste]

Presumably Germany haven't asked and if they had I highly doubt the FA would have any issue.

So many things wrong in this.

If the opposing FA have agreed, they're clearly not offended.

Who isn't allowed?

Right, so why is one nation requesting it, and the other (who suffered a great deal more) is not?

Why has this phenomenon only emerged very recently? And why only in certain nations? I'm not aware of anyone but the UK doing this.

Finally, requesting permission from the opposing FA is flawed for a number of reasons. Most nations will grant it without an issue, but when there is clearly going to be a conflict, as in my examples above, is permission not requested? Is it requested and denied which would led to repercussions in itself?

What on earth does the poppy have to do with football anyway?

With regards to your final question - Japan would not be allowed to honour their war dead in an away game against China . It caused an international incident when the Japanese premier visits a war memorial in Japan.

1) Once again you misinterpret what I say....but that's not unusual for you. The actual change of mind by FIFA on this subject is no victory to me. The fact that you spouted so much irrelevant shite (far more than was really necessary) to somehow back up FIFA's stance and that FIFA were initially correct but are now incorrect according to you is actually why I am gleeful on this occasion because I knew you would be incandescent with anger as all your futile 'examples' have been shown to be simply figments of your rather extended imagination Justy lad. I know that you don't know what else you can say....because outwith any slavering you are so familiar with...there is actually nothing, nowt, nada that you can......

2) As a riposte your last sentence is weaker than cat's piss. You actually think that showing you up (again) is a crowning (i take it that's what you mean) achievement in my life ? You do me a disservice Justy....it's like taking sweets from a baby and that aint up in my top ten matey......

Your verbal meanderings have crossed paths with the road to nowhere.

Sorry, you haven't posted anything here worth responding to.

Do you want to try again?

 

[Leo]

Sorry, you haven't posted anything here worth responding to.

Do you want to try again?

Nup....you are owned my son......

 

[Leo]

Japan, China....AGAIN!.....

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Think I said at the time that I thought FIFA's stance was reasonable but that it was a gesture which, ideally, they ought to be able to accommodate. As such I think they've actually handled the issue PRETTY WELL

I know that as HOT TAKES go this is a rather boring one but ,quite frankly, the whole thing's RATHER TEDIOUS.

 

[Cornish Piskie]

I think this issue has gotten somewhat out of proportion.

I can see both sides of the argument. FIFA have a policy of not allowing matches to be used for political purposes, which in my opinion is right and proper. Regardless of what we think of Remembrance, some countries will see it as a political issue.

On the other hand, since the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the Royal British Legion has embarked on a huge campaign of promotion for their Poppy Appeal. Probably one of the biggest catalysts for this was the emotion charged convoy of flag draped coffins through Wootten Basset at the height of the wars. Since that time, not only has commemoration become more important, but BEING SEEN to commemorate the war fallen has taken on huge significance.

I wear the poppy every year. I do so to commemorate my grandfathers who both served in WWII. I take Remembrance seriously as an opportunity for the nation to not only commemorate the fallen, but also for every person to pause for reflection and be grateful that we now live in (relative) peace.

But at 2 minutes past 11 on Remembrance Sunday, as far as I'm concerned, it's over. The Queen has placed her wreath on behalf of the nation, I have observed my act of gratitude and reflection, and life must go on. I think that is what those who died were fighting for. So that life could go on.

What we now seem to indulge in, is an ostentatious orgy of "Poppy Hype." The England vs Scotland match last November was completely overtaken by the issue. Big screens showed graphics of falling poppies, the stadium became completely immersed in the symbolism of it all and, oh, by the way, somewhere along the line there was the small matter of a World Cup Qualifying match between the two oldest rivals in football history.

It got rather silly didn't it.

It's as if football is trying to tell the world that it is trying to out-commemorate anybody else. A sort of "We're commemorating better than you are."

Football doesn't need this. The players don't need to be involved. There isn't any need for special shirts with poppy emblems on them, or armbands, or enforced silences which nobody dare not take part in. I suspect that the players and fans would rather just get on with the game. After all, that was what they were there for, weren't they..?

If the FA want to make a gesture, then do it, say, half an hour before kick off. Allow the RBL to march on the pitch and put up a little memorial that they can salute, everybody can applaud and I'm quite sure the fans would dig deep for the collecting tins too.

By distancing the event from the football part of the evening in this way, all accusation of using the match for political purposes is negated.

But before anybody criticises me for my comments, please read the link attached and ponder on something.....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ear-black-religious-event-world-cup-qualifier

If commemoration for war dead spreads throughout the football world, how long will it be before countries such as Iraq or Afghanistan start to commemorate their "War Martyrs" who have been responsible for murders, beheadings, roadside bombs and other assorted atrocities against - what they see as - the 'Foreign Invader'?

How will we feel about that..?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be an act of commemoration of some sort at an appropriate time, but perhaps we could tone it down a bit and perhaps not make such a major issue of it.

 

[Stagat]

With regards to your final question - Japan would not be allowed to honour their war dead in an away game against China . It caused an international incident when the Japanese premier visits a war memorial in Japan.

The difference being Japan were the invading and occupying force. It would be a valid comparison if the question was Germany asking to wear something commemorative while playing in Poland, France etc.

 

[St. Juste]

If commemoration for war dead spreads throughout the football world, how long will it be before countries such as Iraq or Afghanistan start to commemorate their "War Martyrs" who have been responsible for murders, beheadings, roadside bombs and other assorted atrocities against - what they see as - the 'Foreign Invader'?

How will we feel about that..?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be an act of commemoration of some sort at an appropriate time, but perhaps we could tone it down a bit and perhaps not make such a major issue of it.

Well, it's considerably more justified than commemorating the British soldiers who took park in those conflicts.

The difference being Japan were the invading and occupying force. It would be a valid comparison if the question was Germany asking to wear something commemorative while playing in Poland, France etc.

So we can only commemorate the wars in which we weren't the occupying force? What if we play Iraq or Afghanistan?

But, in the most part, I agree with "Cornish Piskies" post - the idea of people trying to out commemorate each other with bigger displays of poppy is truly revolting. I used to wear one, but won't again until the farce it has turned into dissipates.

Some of my family members did serve in World Wars but never wore a poppy in remembrance, would no doubt be chastised for such action these days.

 

[Stagat]

So we can only commemorate the wars in which we weren't the occupying force? What if we play Iraq or Afghanistan?

People can commemorate what they want. No doubt the football team wearing poppies in Iraq or Afghanistan in 2017 would be a step up in ridiculousness and insensitivity from doing so in Germany though.

TBH I'm pretty much with you re. poppies in general. I just wanted to bring to attention the flaw in the point you made and then felt the need to repeat when Leo didn't address it.

To bring this full circle though, if there's one country we shouldn't send a football team displaying poppies to it'd be China.

 

[Leo]

People can commemorate what they want. No doubt the football team wearing poppies in Iraq or Afghanistan in 2017 would be a step up in ridiculousness and insensitivity from doing so in Germany though.

TBH I'm pretty much with you re. poppies in general. I just wanted to bring to attention the flaw in the point you made and then felt the need to repeat when Leo didn't address it.

To bring this full circle though, if there's one country we shouldn't send a football team displaying poppies to it'd be China.

Tbh I felt/feel no need to get involved in this debate yet again. Others have made their points which I respect & I have made my views very plain on the subject in two segments of the thread (when it first started and secondly after it was announced that FIFA will allow it). Let me make this clear......I wear a poppy every year as a mark of respect & NOT as a political statement & have done for God knows how many years. If anybody does not wish to wear a poppy then I have no problem with that.....I won't decry them & I won't ask why they do not. Now the same logic is applied by me towards ANY institution which wishes to display a poppy....in this case it is the adornment of football strips with one. If the teams involved wish to, then fine.....if they do not, that is also fine with me. Nobody is being forced to wear a poppy that I am aware of & if they are the that is wrong!

The only reason I have made the majority of my posts in this thread was to counter the ridiculous points of pathetic attempted persuasion that my view is incorrect made by a pseudo intellectual who for some obscure reason believes that his view/opinion is correct and mine is wrong. The guy is a bufoon

 

[St. Juste]

Tbh I felt/feel no need to get involved in this debate yet again. Others have made their points which I respect & I have made my views very plain on the subject in two segments of the thread (when it first started and secondly after it was announced that FIFA will allow it). Let me make this clear......I wear a poppy every year as a mark of respect & NOT as a political statement & have done for God knows how many years. If anybody does not wish to wear a poppy then I have no problem with that.....I won't decry them & I won't ask why they do not. Now the same logic is applied by me towards ANY institution which wishes to display a poppy....in this case it is the adornment of football strips with one. If the teams involved wish to, then fine.....if they do not, that is also fine with me. Nobody is being forced to wear a poppy that I am aware of & if they are the that is wrong!

The only reason I have made the majority of my posts in this thread was to counter the ridiculous points of pathetic attempted persuasion that my view is incorrect made by a pseudo intellectual who for some obscure reason believes that his view/opinion is correct and mine is wrong. The guy is a bufoon

You have spelled that wrong.

Anyway, the whole "everyone can really do what they want" shtick doesn't work so well given the horrendous abuse James McClean has had during his career for the heinous crime of choosing not to wear a poppy.

It's forced upon patriotism, for clearly political reasons, and should absolutely be challenged.

When the Queen dies there will be a forced minutes silence throughout the UK at football matches, despite her having absolutely nothing to do - and no interest in - football. How pathetic.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

If you're working in the UK at the time Juste, I imagine you'll troop into work irked faced on the bank holiday the rest of us will enjoy with our families for Charles' coronation, on your own, just to make a point.

For all we know the Royal Family could all be raving West 'Am fans.
(I joke but that has actually been speculated as such in the media before).

Various Royal Family members have held / and still hold the presidency position of the Football Association, since 1939. So yeah the Monarchy (if not the Queen herself) actually have a fair connection to football, ceremonially at least, in England.

For my my two pennies worth, not that anyone cares, I'll wear a poppy for a few days or so leading up to Remembrance Sunday every year. It has some meaning to my family as well as being a more generic, nationwide and indeed international memento of respect and recognition of history.

With the way this fixture falls, maybe it would be nice for the England / Germany game to mark the occasion with something mutually solemn and respectful, and then get on with hopefully a good game of football. Maybe some of the hype that exists becomes crass and over the top, and perhaps it wouldn't be the worst thing if less fuss was made over the issue. As it is supposed to be a sombre time for reflection.

 

[Leo]

You have spelled that wrong.

Anyway, the whole "everyone can really do what they want" shtick doesn't work so well given the horrendous abuse James McClean has had during his career for the heinous crime of choosing not to wear a poppy.

It's forced upon patriotism, for clearly political reasons, and should absolutely be challenged.

When the Queen dies there will be a forced minutes silence throughout the UK at football matches, despite her having absolutely nothing to do - and no interest in - football. How pathetic.

You really are the most pitiful specimen. You pick up on a small spelling mistake....how fucking pathetic....but very apt as it identifies with your entire miserable persona. If I had the cringeworthy want (which I don't as I am not as witless as yourself) I could go through your posts and point out many errors with your posting but I won't.....I'll leave that to children such as yourself.

I have clearly made my views and opinions on this subject throughout the thread and feel absolutely no need to indulge your hunger for half-witted controversy simply for the sake of it. I have countered every half arsed example you have made and your problem is that you simply detest being shown up for the clown that you so obviously are. You my son are owned......

James McClean............The Queen.......O M G..........your brain is scrambled son.

St Juste....shown up & owned!!!.............

 

[Leo]

If you're working in the UK at the time Juste, I imagine you'll troop into work irked faced on the bank holiday the rest of us will enjoy with our families for Charles' coronation, on your own, just to make a point.

Of course he will Mark....then he'll be on here whining like a bitch about the fact that a holiday had been declared and MUST be challenged. There is no limit to the clown's self adulation.......

 

[St. Juste]

If you're working in the UK at the time Juste, I imagine you'll troop into work irked faced on the bank holiday the rest of us will enjoy with our families for Charles' coronation, on your own, just to make a point.

For all we know the Royal Family could all be raving West 'Am fans.
(I joke but that has actually been speculated as such in the media before).

Various Royal Family members have held / and still hold the presidency position of the Football Association, since 1939. So yeah the Monarchy (if not the Queen herself) actually have a fair connection to football, ceremonially at least, in England.

For my my two pennies worth, not that anyone cares, I'll wear a poppy for a few days or so leading up to Remembrance Sunday every year. It has some meaning to my family as well as being a more generic, nationwide and indeed international memento of respect and recognition of history.

With the way this fixture falls, maybe it would be nice for the England / Germany game to mark the occasion with something mutually solemn and respectful, and then get on with hopefully a good game of football. Maybe some of the hype that exists becomes crass and over the top, and perhaps it wouldn't be the worst thing if less fuss was made over the issue. As it is supposed to be a sombre time for reflection.

Absolutely, I'll get a day off in lieu too. Don't believe in disrupting minutes silences' but casual disregard and reading my phone during it will suffice.

The Queens complete disinterest in football (and paying income tax) is well known. At least she was eventually forced to pay tax.

Do you think the players will wear armbands too? Just how ridiculous a spectacle is it going to be?

These mementos of respect and history and clearly political, so long as we are agreed on that.

Somehow Germany, with their significantly higher death toll in both wars, will struggle on without having to disrupt a football game.

 

[Aber gas]

So it begins ffs.

 

[Leo]

So it begins ffs.
View attachment 7293

do you not believe in wearing a poppy Aber or is it the 'over the top display' (some may say) that irks you ?

 

[Aber gas]

do you not believe in wearing a poppy Aber or is it the 'over the top display' (some may say) that irks you ?

It’s mainly the latter. Every year it seems people try and outdo each other in turning what should be a period of quiet remembrance into a crass, unedifying and aggressive show of patriotism. There also seems to be a nosy insistence from some for people who don’t wear one to explain their reasons.
I don’t wear one Leo for a variety of reasons though I respect the right of others to do so.
I don’t like the circus of hate and aggression that it’s become. My grandfather was the same. He fought and would have rolled his eyes at some of the ludicrous spectacles that are part of what I saw someone proclaim ( not ironically) as “ poppy season”

 

[Cornish Piskie]

The Royal British Legion sell poppies for two weeks before Remembrance Sunday and I think that's sufficient. If it's good enough for the people who represent the armed forces and veterans then it should be good enough for all of us.

The simple wearing of a poppy is enough to show support for the military and show respect to veterans and the fallen. There isn't any need for garish displays such as the one in the image posted by Aber, as well intended as it may be.

My reason to objecting to such displays is that they appear - to me at least - to be the sort of garish, graceless showing off that actually cheapens..... devalues.... remembrance rather than dignify it

We keep coming back to what is appropriate. In my opinion, appropriate is:

* Wear the poppy with pride.
* Donate to the Poppy Appeal.
* Observe,with respect, the period of remembrance, especially the traditional two minute silence at 1100 on Remembrance Sunday.
*Allow those who choose not to wear the poppy to do so without questioning their reason.

When all is said and done, those who fought did so in order that life could go on. Let's honour their sacrifice by doing just that.

 

[Deepcut Cobbler]

....and 1100hrs on Armistice Day.

 

[St. Juste]

The Royal British Legion sell poppies for two weeks before Remembrance Sunday and I think that's sufficient. If it's good enough for the people who represent the armed forces and veterans then it should be good enough for all of us.

The simple wearing of a poppy is enough to show support for the military and show respect to veterans and the fallen. There isn't any need for garish displays such as the one in the image posted by Aber, as well intended as it may be.

My reason to objecting to such displays is that they appear - to me at least - to be the sort of garish, graceless showing off that actually cheapens..... devalues.... remembrance rather than dignify it

We keep coming back to what is appropriate. In my opinion, appropriate is:

* Wear the poppy with pride.
* Donate to the Poppy Appeal.
* Observe,with respect, the period of remembrance, especially the traditional two minute silence at 1100 on Remembrance Sunday.
*Allow those who choose not to wear the poppy to do so without questioning their reason.

When all is said and done, those who fought did so in order that life could go on. Let's honour their sacrifice by doing just that.

Quite how anyone can "support the military" after the events of the past 15 years is beyond me.

 

[Aber gas]

Quite how anyone can "support the military" after the events of the past 15 years is beyond me.

It depends whether you can separate support and solidarity with scarred and vulnerable veterans spat out by the state and the whole concept of supporting military action.

 

[St. Juste]

It depends whether you can separate support and solidarity with scarred and vulnerable veterans spat out by the state and the whole concept of supporting military action.

Do you feel sympathy for the people / fortune seekers who went to "fight ISIS" or fight in Libya?

The support for veterans actually seems rather generous relative to other countries.

 

[Aber gas]

Do you feel sympathy for the people / fortune seekers who went to "fight ISIS" or fight in Libya?

The support for veterans actually seems rather generous relative to other countries.

Do you mean antifa volunteers fighting with rojava ?