The Labour Thread

[Alty]

Gerry Adams and his other ira cohorts as well as loyalist thugs are accepted into mainstream politics now , with all the state visits and vip status that comes with it . A murderer is still a murderer even after the event so it could be argued that corbyn was just doing what politicians are doing in recent times but in a different political climate . That's brave if misguided .

Willing to deal with someone who has (finally) accepted the rule of law is quite different to supporting them while they're trying to terrorise people into submitting to their will.

Anyway, it's not even really about the horrible things Republicans did in the past. It's more about the bizarre notion that Irish unity is inherently desirable. I mean, if you're Irish, it's a legitimate and respectable political aspiration. But only because you'd like people to buy into the national ethos to which you subscribe. But an English person campaigning passionately for a united Ireland? It's fucking weird. Demonstrates a total lack of understanding.

 

[Tilbury]

It's not about just meeting them. It's about actively supporting them. Including at times when they were deliberately murdering civilians. And all in order to achieve an end that involves completely overriding people's right to self-determination.

He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.

It's been our governments policy in various countries for years and continues to be, not really on his own there.

 

[Aber gas]

Willing to deal with someone who has (finally) accepted the rule of law is quite different to supporting them while they're trying to terrorise people into submitting to their will.

Anyway, it's not even really about the horrible things Republicans did in the past. It's more about the bizarre notion that Irish unity is inherently desirable. I mean, if you're Irish, it's a legitimate and respectable political aspiration. But only because you'd like people to buy into the national ethos to which you subscribe. But an English person campaigning passionately for a united Ireland? It's fucking weird. Demonstrates a total lack of understanding.

On that premise nobody would be able to care about anything that didn't affect their sovereign country . I don't find it strange that people cared about and campaigned against apartheid for example .

 

[Alty]

It's been our governments policy in various countries for years and continues to be, not really on his own there.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

On that premise nobody would be able to care about anything that didn't affect their sovereign country . I don't find it strange that people cared about and campaigned against apartheid for example .

Believing people the world over should be free from persecution/direct discrimination is quite normal.

Loathing your own country so much that you think almost 2 million of its citizens, the majority of whom wish to remain part of the UK, so should be packed off and made citizens of a new country is downright odd.

 

[Aber gas]

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Believing people the world over should be free from persecution/direct discrimination is quite normal.

Loathing your own country so much that you think almost 2 million of its citizens, the majority of whom wish to remain part of the UK, so should be packed off and made citizens of a new country is downright odd.

You can love your country and disagree with its government . I can empathise with Ulster republicans living under british rule just as I can appreciate the concerns of loyalists . Just because I can see the debate from both sides doesn't mean I loathe Britain .

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

They're not part of the United Kingdom, never have been and never will be. There's no kinship, they took off and lived in a colony, if they want to be British come back to this country. Gerrymadered, disgusting state and pretty much universally backward horrible people, ever met a decent wannabe Brit from Northern Ireland? Nah, me neither. Not wanted by anyone, it's embarrassing how sad those people are with their flags, scum of the earth. Conservative, neanderthal, Rangers loving scumbags one and all.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Yeah, I mean it's not like we only started calling this country the "United Kingdom" after Great Britain and Ireland each passed an act of union binding us together or nuffin.

 

[Alty]

You can love your country and disagree with its government . I can empathise with Ulster republicans living under british rule just as I can appreciate the concerns of loyalists . Just because I can see the debate from both sides doesn't mean I loathe Britain .

I don't think you've understood what I said. I can empathise with Irish Republicans too. Doesn't change the fact that an Englishman actively campaigning for Irish unity is strange.

 

[Alty]

They're not part of the United Kingdom, never have been and never will be. There's no kinship, they took off and lived in a colony, if they want to be British come back to this country. Gerrymadered, disgusting state and pretty much universally backward horrible people, ever met a decent wannabe Brit from Northern Ireland? Nah, me neither. Not wanted by anyone, it's embarrassing how sad those people are with their flags, scum of the earth. Conservative, neanderthal, Rangers loving scumbags one and all.

Hahahaha.

You'll have to be a little bit more subtle than this, I'm afraid.

 

[Aber gas]

I don't think you've understood what I said. I can empathise with Irish Republicans too. Doesn't change the fact that an Englishman actively campaigning for Irish unity is strange.

We are going round in circles here , campaigning for Irish unity out of political conscience is no different to campaigning on any political issue . If you believe that Ulster should be under Irish rule it doesn't make any difference that your English or French or any nationality . For some people politics aren't viewed through a nationalist prism so if you believe in say Palestinian indepence for example then it follows that you also believe in Irish republicanism regardless of nationality .

 

[Aber gas]

They're not part of the United Kingdom, never have been and never will be. There's no kinship, they took off and lived in a colony, if they want to be British come back to this country. Gerrymadered, disgusting state and pretty much universally backward horrible people, ever met a decent wannabe Brit from Northern Ireland? Nah, me neither. Not wanted by anyone, it's embarrassing how sad those people are with their flags, scum of the earth. Conservative, neanderthal, Rangers loving scumbags one and all.

Stop sitting on the fence , say what you really mean

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

We are going round in circles here , campaigning for Irish unity out of political conscience is no different to campaigning on any political issue . If you believe that Ulster should be under Irish rule it doesn't make any difference that your English or French or any nationality . For some people politics aren't viewed through a nationalist prism so if you believe in say Palestinian indepence for example then it follows that you also believe in Irish republicanism regardless of nationality .

I don't think a politician should expect many votes when he openly works against the interests of the country and people he wants to represent.

 

[Alty]

We are going round in circles here , campaigning for Irish unity out of political conscience is no different to campaigning on any political issue . If you believe that Ulster should be under Irish rule it doesn't make any difference that your English or French or any nationality . For some people politics aren't viewed through a nationalist prism so if you believe in say Palestinian indepence for example then it follows that you also believe in Irish republicanism regardless of nationality .

I'm not disputing anyone's right to do it. People can campaign for whatever the hell they like. What I'm saying is his history of campaigning for Irish unity displays a total lack of understanding. Even the SDLP actively discouraged that line at the time Corbyn was bleating on about it. It just smacks of loony left self-loathing.

 

[Aber gas]

I don't think a politician should expect many votes when he openly works against the interests of the country and people he wants to represent.

Well the fellas got a 21000 majority in his seat so I wouldn't imagine he's that bothered .

 

[Alty]

Well the fellas got a 21000 majority in his seat so I wouldn't imagine he's that bothered .

Easy to represent a town well while having a bonkers world view. Countless MPs have kept their seats for decades that way.

 

[Aber gas]

I'm not disputing anyone's right to do it. People can campaign for whatever the hell they like. What I'm saying is his history of campaigning for Irish unity displays a total lack of understanding. Even the SDLP actively discouraged that line at the time Corbyn was bleating on about it. It just smacks of loony left self-loathing.

You see it as lefty self loathing but I see it as man sticking to his political beliefs , more than can be said for most of the chameleons that currently claim to represent the left in this country . You might loathe the mans politics but he isn't a hypocrite on Ulster like the majority of the establishment who condemned republicans when it was politically convenient to but now are quite happy to sit down for tea and cakes and a set of hand shakes .

 

[Aber gas]

Easy to represent a town well while having a bonkers world view. Countless MPs have kept their seats for decades that way.

My reply was in reference to the poster saying he shouldn't expect many votes

 

[Alty]

You see it as lefty self loathing but I see it as man sticking to his political beliefs , more than can be said for most of the chameleons that currently claim to represent the left in this country . You might loathe the mans politics but he isn't a hypocrite on Ulster like the majority of the establishment who condemned republicans when it was politically convenient to but now are quite happy to sit down for tea and cakes and a set of hand shakes .

All this stems from me saying he has a lack of understanding of the Irish conflict as demonstrated by his unwavering commitment to Irish unity. It's got nothing to do consistency/hypocrisy. I'm not really sure what your problem is with the original point

 

[Alty]

My reply was in reference to the poster saying he shouldn't expect many votes

Yes, and you used his large majority in his own constituency to buttress your argument.

But I think EG was talking about the man as a potential leader of the Labour Party (and by extension Prime Minister). Can he expect many votes at a national level with bonkers ideas likes he has on Ireland?

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Hahahaha.

You'll have to be a little bit more subtle than this, I'm afraid.

You deny the inveterate conservatism of the unionist community? Horrible people.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

My reply was in reference to the poster saying he shouldn't expect many votes

Obviously I meant in the context of him potentially trying to win a general election. A party that's leader wants to break up the union doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Aber gas]

All this stems from me saying he has a lack of understanding of the Irish conflict as demonstrated by his unwavering commitment to Irish unity. It's got nothing to do consistency/hypocrisy. I'm not really sure what your problem is with the original point

No it comes from you insisting that if you campaign for a United ireland you somehow loath Britain and that if your an Englishman you're crazy if you support republicanism . Corbyn has different views to you ( and myself ) on Ulster but that doesn't make him a traitor or bonkers

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Obviously I meant in the context of him potentially trying to win a general election. A party that's leader wants to break up the union doesn't stand a chance.

Nobody cares about Northern Ireland, it's a complete irrelevance to actual British people. The support for a united Ireland is high in Britain. The only spanner is the Scots now, all the talk of union breaking has made it a toxic subject but Northern Ireland has never been an issue for British people. Aside from the scaremongering about 'no surrender' and all that bollocks, people just aren't interested in this imperial throwback.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Nobody cares about Northern Ireland, it's a complete irrelevance to actual British people. The support for a united Ireland is high in Britain. The only spanner is the Scots now, all the talk of union breaking has made it a toxic subject but Northern Ireland has never been an issue for British people. Aside from the scaremongering about 'no surrender' and all that bollocks, people just aren't interested in this imperial throwback.

Although it's interesting that we often here rhetoric about England "subsidising" Wales and Scotland, but it's rarely used as a stick to beat Northern Ireland with.

 

[Aber gas]

Obviously I meant in the context of him potentially trying to win a general election. A party that's leader wants to break up the union doesn't stand a chance.

He probably won't win the leadership contest but his views are important in the context of labours future . Corbyn standing shows that the left are still around and we still have a place in the political spectrum .

 

[Aber gas]

Although it's interesting that we often here rhetoric about England "subsidising" Wales and Scotland, but it's rarely used as a stick to beat Northern Ireland with.

I think people are just happy that Ulster isn't in flames any more . The funds are worth it .

 

[mnb089mnb]

Obviously I meant in the context of him potentially trying to win a general election. A party that's leader wants to break up the union doesn't stand a chance.

If he can eat a bacon sandwich without looking odd I think he'll be fine. I suspect the tabloids would go after the loony-leftie angle more anyway. I also think he can hold a personal view that his party and manifesto doesn't support.

He won't win anyway, so Norn Iron is safe from being broken off the mainland and connected back onto Ireland.

 

[Tilbury]

I'm not sure what you mean here.

They're all at it entertaining/supporting murderous dictators and regimes etc.

 

[Alty]

You deny the inveterate conservatism of the unionist community? Horrible people.

There's nothing inherently conservative about Unionism at all. As I think we've discussed before, there's been a lazy tendency to pigeon hole Republicanism/Nationalism as Liberal/Left-wing and Loyalism/Unionism as Conservative/Right-wing when in truth all these ideologies are complex and multifaceted.

The Provisional Republican movement was born out of a deep suspicion of left-wing politics. Goulding completely alienated his largely Conservative-Catholic-Nationalist followers by trying to drag the IRA into leftist politics.

On the other hand, the first serious Social Democratic party to make any headway in Northern Ireland was the Protestant-Unionist dominated Northern Ireland Labour Party. There was even some interest in 'Orange Marxism' around that time.

In more modern times you can point to Progressive Unionist Party policies, or the decision of Sylvia Hermon to leave the UUP in protest at the party's decision to create a pact with the Tories, as clear evidence of the complex nature of Unionism.

Nice to know you harbour prejudice akin to racism though.

Nobody cares about Northern Ireland, it's a complete irrelevance to actual British people. The support for a united Ireland is high in Britain. The only spanner is the Scots now, all the talk of union breaking has made it a toxic subject but Northern Ireland has never been an issue for British people. Aside from the scaremongering about 'no surrender' and all that bollocks, people just aren't interested in this imperial throwback.

TBH Northern Ireland and Northern Irish people are probably as well-liked and respected in Britain as they've ever been at the moment. I don't disagree that there are a lot of British people who don't really understand Northern Ireland, but what does that prove? I've met people in their 50s who don't seem to know anything about politics at all and have never visited Scotland, Wales or NI.

Support for a united Ireland is not high. I don't know where that comes from. At the height of the troubles support was moderately high (while still being less popular than Unionism), mainly because people were tired of the terrorist threat and ignorantly thought Irish unity would make it go away.

Although it's interesting that we often here rhetoric about England "subsidising" Wales and Scotland, but it's rarely used as a stick to beat Northern Ireland with.

Probably because NI (or the majority within NI, at least) are seen as greatful for their place in the UK. Whereas Scotland and Wales are seen as whingers. Not an entirely fair characterisation, but you can see where it comes from.

They're all at it entertaining/supporting murderous dictators and regimes etc.

But that's realpolitik, is it not? Our senior politicians support the Saudis because they judge it the least bad option. Not because they have some deep connection to a psychotic brand of Sunni Islam. I honestly don't know of many politicans/campaigners who are out there banging the drum for tyrants and/or terrorist groups (with the exception, funnily enough, of self-loathing leftists like George Galloway).

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Akin to racism

Say what you like about Republicanism but it's born out of a hope for freedom, a unifying cause that did not discriminate. People like Wolfe Tone etc. Unionism is built out of a bedrock of fear and hatred, the colonisers clinging to the past and outright hatred of the Catholic Irish.