The Labour Thread

[Abertawe]

The basis of the coup is that there is probably a general election coming up, and Labour do not have a chance of winning it if things stay as they are. Europe may be the trigger and the main reason being cited in some of the resignation letters, but had Remain won, Jeremy would likely have been given more time. I think it's worth remembering that all the people currently resigning are the ones who have been trying to make it work with Jeremy for a year, not the ones who flounced off and refused to be involved.

Those victories you have mentioned are all good news and impressive, but I don't think Liverpool was ever going to not produce a Labour mayor, and I don't think Corbyn was relevant in the London election. The government is in massive chaos. Even unsuccessful past leaders like Foot, Miliband etc. have enjoyed more popularity with the public than Corbyn. Labour needs to be 10 points ahead in the polls, not 'just about level on a good day'. Do you honestly think he's going to pull out a massive upswing in support in the coming weeks? Why? Where from?

What do you think a Labour party led by a right minded Hilary Benn is going to achieve? In life you stick to your principles. If Corbyn was ousted by this lot of disgusting blairite cretins then Labour is dead to me & 100,000's of others.

 

[Max]

Why not? The same thing happened in reverse colours not so long ago.

The Labour as a left wing socialist party lost three elections against Thatcher and one against John Major before deciding to adjust. New Labour was not an overnight betrayal of the party, it was a necessary evolution for people to actually listen to the party. Before Blair the last Labour leader to win a general election was Harold Wilson. Not even Harold Wilson was a left wing socialist in the same mould as many of the Labour failed leaders that followed him.

 

[Max]

What do you think a Labour party led by a right minded Hilary Benn is going to achieve? In life you stick to your principles. If Corbyn was ousted by this lot of disgusting blairite cretins then Labour is dead to me & 100,000's of others.

I personally don't think Hilary Benn should lead the party. But stop pretending he's right wing.

He supported military intervention in Syria ... he also voted for a fox hunting ban, for gay rights, is in favour of the right to die, for the smoking ban, against the bedroom tax, against increasing VAT, against the restriction of trade unions, against academy schools, against lowering corporation tax, is for an elected house of lords and for reducing carbon emissions. These are principles he's stuck to, and I'm not aware of any major U-turns generally. You just don't agree with his foreign policy.

Blairite is just a word that no longer has any meaning. Tom Watson tried to oust Blair himself. Hardly a Blairite. A number of the resignations in the last 24 hours have come from self-proclaimed socialists, those on the left and former backers of Jeremy.

As I said before, 250,000 people voted for Jeremy Corbyn to be leader. I was one of them, and I now don't think he's ever going to be Prime Minister. I want the Labour Party to win elections. That is the point, otherwise you get nothing. If the Labour Party ousts Corbyn, loses some of those 250,000, that is something it can recover from if it can win back actual voters. In actual general elections. That's the point of replacing him.

 

[Pliny Harris]

The basis of the coup is that there is probably a general election coming up, and Labour do not have a chance of winning it if things stay as they are. Europe may be the trigger and the main reason being cited in some of the resignation letters, but had Remain won, Jeremy would likely have been given more time. I think it's worth remembering that all the people currently resigning are the ones who have been trying to make it work with Jeremy for a year, not the ones who flounced off and refused to be involved.

Bit disingenuous. Every time the ball's been in Labour's court, members of the PLP have taken a swipe, unprovoked.

The Labour as a left wing socialist party lost three elections against Thatcher and one against John Major before deciding to adjust. New Labour was not an overnight betrayal of the party, it was a necessary evolution for people to actually listen to the party. Before Blair the last Labour leader to win a general election was Harold Wilson. Not even Harold Wilson was a left wing socialist in the same mould as many of the Labour failed leaders that followed him.

For one, Foot was well clear Thatcher in the polls before the latter invaded the Falklands. The Labour right ticket has lost the last two elections and had no-one of inspiration to vote for last year, and have nobody to rally round now, and lack a single political argument. The right are so desperate to be heard, Cooper was even seen speaking in the HoC today with a mini-Union Jack in hand. Pure desperation in courting the right, and not the sort of party I'd be happy with ruling over me regardless.

 

[Max]

Bit disingenuous. Every time the ball's been in Labour's court, members of the PLP have taken a swipe, unprovoked.



For one, Foot was well clear Thatcher in the polls before the latter invaded the Falklands. The Labour right ticket has lost the last two elections and had no-one of inspiration to vote for last year, and have nobody to rally round now, and lack a single political argument. The right are so desperate to be heard, Cooper was even seen speaking in the HoC today with a mini-Union Jack in hand. Pure desperation in courting the right, and not the sort of party I'd be happy with ruling over me regardless.

Not dismissing your other points but just so we are talking about the same thing, do you really think Ed Miliband is too right wing?

 

[Techno Natch]

Kerry McCarthy my local MP stood down. Kind of disappointed in her really and she's far from a Blairite.

 

[Abertawe]

If they're opting to stab Corbyn in the back in favour of a "centre-left" directive then they're Blairites, pure & simple. Funny how these backstabbers are refusing to put names forward as to who should be the new leader. If they've made the decision to betray Corbyn then they must surely have someone in mind they're willing to back?

 

[Max]

If they're opting to stab Corbyn in the back in favour of a "centre-left" directive then they're Blairites, pure & simple. Funny how these backstabbers are refusing to put names forward as to who should be the new leader. If they've made the decision to betray Corbyn then they must surely have someone in mind they're willing to back?

You're not really addressing the central point, though:

Do you think it is important the Labour Party can win a general election? Do you really think Jeremy Corbyn can win a general election?

The definition of 'Blairite', and we could go round and round about this, is definitely not 'someone who does not think Jeremy Corbyn is doing a good job'.

I think the argument that's being made is: Corbyn is not doing well enough. He should stand down. If he doesn't, they'll be a motion of no confidence, and then there can be a leadership election.

What does 'centre-left' mean to you? If you're this implacably opposed to all of the PLP (except Jeremy, naturally), would you genuinely not be happier joining the Socialist Workers' Party, or similar?

 

[Abertawe]

You're not really addressing the central point, though:

Do you think it is important the Labour Party can win a general election? Do you really think Jeremy Corbyn can win a general election?

Yes & yes.

 

[Max]

Yes & yes.

Fair enough, I'm happy to agree to disagree! I just think your optimism is misplaced!

For what it's worth, I am surprised that the MPs didn't wait for the Tories' leadership election to move against Corbyn, but most people don't think he'll beat May or Johnson in a general.

 

[Techno Natch]

If they're opting to stab Corbyn in the back in favour of a "centre-left" directive then they're Blairites, pure & simple. Funny how these backstabbers are refusing to put names forward as to who should be the new leader. If they've made the decision to betray Corbyn then they must surely have someone in mind they're willing to back?

I can assure you that she's not. Unfortunately she blames Corbyn for us leaving the EU which is why she's left. She's genuinely been a good MP voted against all austerity measures etc. I don't agree with her though for leaving and it's annoyed me a bit.

 

[Pliny Harris]

Not dismissing your other points but just so we are talking about the same thing, do you really think Ed Miliband is too right wing?

Certainly. His marquee left-wing policy was a temporary freeze on energy bills. His shadow chancellor opted to mimic Tory cuts for Labour's first two years in power, a policy so popular that he lost his seat. Offered some promise but was completely milquetoast in trying to court the right, a tack that ultimately not enough people got behind. Even then mind, it was a shame they didn't.

 

[Dave-Vale]

Go on Skinner!

Thousands out in Parliament Square in support of Corbyn tonight.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Fair enough, I'm happy to agree to disagree! I just think your optimism is misplaced!

For what it's worth, I am surprised that the MPs didn't wait for the Tories' leadership election to move against Corbyn, but most people don't think he'll beat May or Johnson in a general.

It's hard for anybody to win an election when their own party has been trying to oust them from day one though, as an "outsider" all of this has been some of the most pathetic stuff I've ever witnessed. They've nitpicked and been openly disgruntled since day one, genuinely why even bother joining a party and electing a leader you want if you get told no, not good enough, we want another one?

Whose going to vote for this joke of a party? I only did as I was determined to punish my party for their record in government at the last GE and want anything but the Tories, I'll never vote Labour again and it's entirely because of this behaviour. I'm not alone.

 

[Abertawe]

10,000 people gather in Parliament Sq with under 24 hours notice. No other politician in the UK can harness that kind of support, blairites get to fuck.

 

[GodsGift]

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

Labour should not want to win an Election if it happens in 6 months.....NO ONE should want to win that one.

If in power your 2 choices are to vote out of EU and possibly ruin the country then be ousted for a very very long time or else you reverse it all and get utterly panned for making a mockery of democracy and in effect destroy any credibility left in UK politics.

either way being in charge in October spells disaster for whoever it will be.

reminds me of that New Statesman episode when the tories put Alan B'stard in charge of their election campaign in a deliberate attempt to lose election.

 

[Max]

It's hard for anybody to win an election when their own party has been trying to oust them from day one though, as an "outsider" all of this has been some of the most pathetic stuff I've ever witnessed. They've nitpicked and been openly disgruntled since day one, genuinely why even bother joining a party and electing a leader you want if you get told no, not good enough, we want another one?

Whose going to vote for this joke of a party? I only did as I was determined to punish my party for their record in government at the last GE and want anything but the Tories, I'll never vote Labour again and it's entirely because of this behaviour. I'm not alone.

It has been a shambles, and there are a lot of Labour MPs I think have been total arseholes about this. But they are mostly the ones that refused to serve in shadow cabinet when Jeremy was elected. All the people resigning now have had a fair go at making this work.

The Labour Party has to look like a credible government. It currently doesn't, so something has to change.

10,000 people gather in Parliament Sq with under 24 hours notice. No other politician in the UK can harness that kind of support, blairites get to fuck.

10,000 people my arse. Half that, if you're lucky. And a good load of them were AWL or SWP members, not Labour Party members, so their opinion on this is null and void.

Also, what's a Blairite? You're still using the definition: 'anyone who thinks Jeremy Corbyn is not doing a good job as Labour leader'.

 

[Abertawe]

It has been a shambles, and there are a lot of Labour MPs I think have been total arseholes about this. But they are mostly the ones that refused to serve in shadow cabinet when Jeremy was elected. All the people resigning now have had a fair go at making this work.

The Labour Party has to look like a credible government. It currently doesn't, so something has to change.



10,000 people my arse. Half that, if you're lucky. And a good load of them were AWL or SWP members, not Labour Party members, so their opinion on this is null and void.

Also, what's a Blairite? You're still using the definition: 'anyone who thinks Jeremy Corbyn is not doing a good job as Labour leader'.

You seemingly, Tory boy.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Can't believe he's still there. It's like 30-40 shadow ministers that have gone now, isn't it?

 

[TheMinsterman]

It has been a shambles, and there are a lot of Labour MPs I think have been total arseholes about this. But they are mostly the ones that refused to serve in shadow cabinet when Jeremy was elected. All the people resigning now have had a fair go at making this work.

The Labour Party has to look like a credible government. It currently doesn't, so something has to change.

I keep hearing "Jeremy isn't doing a good job, Jeremy isn't a good leader". I'd like to know where this is based from, it was being said long before the referendum, again pretty much since day one. What specifically makes him "not a good leader"?

All I see is people shifting the blame, it's not just Jeremy Corbyn's job to communicate Labour's message to voters, it's the MPs who are now so petulantly tossing the toys out of the pram. I knew that Corbyn was in the Remain camp, I struggle to see how people claim they didn't know as I know this purely from just seeing the news, reading a newspaper etc. One woman on the BBC (I can't recall the name) kept saying how hard she had campaigned etc.... yet in same breath saying Jeremy needs to go, well I'm sorry but if she campaigned that hard and fail and thinks he needs to go, so does she.

They all failed, collectively, but only one person is being strung out to dry, and it's the same guy who various people have always wanted rid of and meddled behind the scenes for months to achieve that end.

Remain hardly took a kicking either, it was a narrow margin either way, but the PLP wants Corbyn to basically fall on his sword as they carry on and elect another "failure" from their own ranks?

They don't look credible to me because of all this plotting and backstabbing, following the Lib Dems betrayal I was left seriously contemplating my political future, Labour could have enticed me in, but all I've seen is a party who will revolt if it's MPs are not given what they wants by their voters, so why would I trust them to fulfil my wishes in government? It's been just over 6 months ffs, this isn't MPs saying after 3-4 years they just can't work together, it's pathetic.

Corbyn, with actual support and not constant plots to undermine him at a GE will do no worse than Ed Milliband did frankly, I genuinely believe that. But if they oust him and get their preferred candidate in? I'm confident it will reflect badly on Labour with voters, all of this gives you no reason to believe in them.

 

[Aber gas]

Can't believe he's still there. It's like 30-40 shadow ministers that have gone now, isn't it?

Alright now, you've got your Brexit. No need for gloating.

 

[Red]

You're not really addressing the central point, though:

Do you think it is important the Labour Party can win a general election? Do you really think Jeremy Corbyn can win a general election?

The definition of 'Blairite', and we could go round and round about this, is definitely not 'someone who does not think Jeremy Corbyn is doing a good job'.

I think the argument that's being made is: Corbyn is not doing well enough. He should stand down. If he doesn't, they'll be a motion of no confidence, and then there can be a leadership election.

What does 'centre-left' mean to you? If you're this implacably opposed to all of the PLP (except Jeremy, naturally), would you genuinely not be happier joining the Socialist Workers' Party, or similar?

Do you think Labour can win and election with another Tory plan B leader? They've just lost two on the bounce.

 

[Dave-Vale]

The police estimated it was 10,000 people there last night, so it was likely more than that. There is no other UK politician that could harbour that kind of support within a few hours. None.

I hope Corbyn stays (and I think he is going to). Just because it is quite funny watching these red Tory boys and girls acting so petulantly.

I have no idea why Corbyn is shouldering the blame for the referendum result. Each MP should carry the blame for not doing the leg work in their own constituency. I've not seen Tristram Hunt in my area once during the build up, not even so much as a leaflet with him endorsing the remain campaign came through.

 

[The Jovial Forester]

Even the right-wing story about the losses against Thatcher airbrush out the SDP splitters, spiritual ancestors of Benn and crew and proof of what Nye Bevan said.

 

[TimeyWimey]

I have no idea why Corbyn is shouldering the blame for the referendum result. Each MP should carry the blame for not doing the leg work in their own constituency.

Likely because even the little he did campaign to remain was unconvincing and would surprise no one if he betrayed that campaign and voted to leave. For a 'new kind of politics', it stinks of business as usual.

 

[JJ1532]

Jesus, no confidence motion passed with an overwhelming majority. Why are they doing this? It's obvious he'll win the leadership election, so what do they hope to achieve?

 

[Max]

I keep hearing "Jeremy isn't doing a good job, Jeremy isn't a good leader". I'd like to know where this is based from, it was being said long before the referendum, again pretty much since day one. What specifically makes him "not a good leader"?

All I see is people shifting the blame, it's not just Jeremy Corbyn's job to communicate Labour's message to voters, it's the MPs who are now so petulantly tossing the toys out of the pram. I knew that Corbyn was in the Remain camp, I struggle to see how people claim they didn't know as I know this purely from just seeing the news, reading a newspaper etc. One woman on the BBC (I can't recall the name) kept saying how hard she had campaigned etc.... yet in same breath saying Jeremy needs to go, well I'm sorry but if she campaigned that hard and fail and thinks he needs to go, so does she.

They all failed, collectively, but only one person is being strung out to dry, and it's the same guy who various people have always wanted rid of and meddled behind the scenes for months to achieve that end.

Remain hardly took a kicking either, it was a narrow margin either way, but the PLP wants Corbyn to basically fall on his sword as they carry on and elect another "failure" from their own ranks?

They don't look credible to me because of all this plotting and backstabbing, following the Lib Dems betrayal I was left seriously contemplating my political future, Labour could have enticed me in, but all I've seen is a party who will revolt if it's MPs are not given what they wants by their voters, so why would I trust them to fulfil my wishes in government? It's been just over 6 months ffs, this isn't MPs saying after 3-4 years they just can't work together, it's pathetic.

Corbyn, with actual support and not constant plots to undermine him at a GE will do no worse than Ed Milliband did frankly, I genuinely believe that. But if they oust him and get their preferred candidate in? I'm confident it will reflect badly on Labour with voters, all of this gives you no reason to believe in them.

The number one job of the Labour leader is to make Labour electable. Corbyn's current approval rating (when polled on the general public) is about -22. For context, after the same amount of time as leader, Kinnock was about neutral, and Miliband was -8. Whether or not you think the reporting on Corbyn has been right, he needs to be more popular.

I think honestly even his supporters know he's not up to it: http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016...don-t-think-jeremy-corbyn-can-win-but-they-st

Time after time, if you ask voters, they will tell you, they don't trust him: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-the-issues-that-really-matter-10505992.html

And like or not, Labour needs to win more voters over, not just convince Corbyn fans.

Obvious potential Labour voters just do not rate him: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...eone-who-got-lost-from-the-tour-a7019811.html

I never thought anyone could win Scotland back quickly, but Labour are actively going backwards in Scotland. Holding steady in Wales in the polls, but I don't think Corbyn is winning back any swing voters who voted Tory in 2015, or any of the Northern UKIP voters who have always voted Labour in the past.

You knew Corbyn was Remain (technically), and so did I. But we were apparently in the minority. It has now emerged that he refused to send anyone to the weekly Stronger In meetings, cancelled campaign events for the EU referendum, and won't even clarify if he voted to Remain. If he's a Eurosceptic, that's fine, but I am fed up of hearing 'Straight Talking, Honest Politics' from Corbyn fans.

It has been nine months, rather than six. You're right, some people have always been against him, but we don't have 3-4 years. If there is a general election, he cannot win, and this can't be allowed to continue. Labour never sack their leaders, they just let them go on and on (Foot, Miliband, Kinnock) regardless of what the facts are saying. There is no point in being sentimental about this. Doing 'no worse than Ed Miliband' is not something to aspire to. We need someone who is ambitious to win a general election.

It's not about lacking principles. It's about using some common sense. If Jeremy Corbyn's main tactics are to think it's beneath him to attack the government, then that's not OK. I don't care if he doesn't sing the national anthem - I really don't - but you have to have the political nous to know that it will be a story if you don't. Why bleat on about the media being mean to you if you can easily prevent it? His U-turn on shoot-to-kill policy, explaining how we need to have negotiations about the Falklands - his priorities on issues that matter to people are wrong.

You can be a loveable rogue of a left-wing MP who doesn't care about public opinion. Or you can lead a credible opposition to the government. You can't do both, and Lord love him, he really has tried.

 

[Max]

Jesus, no confidence motion passed with an overwhelming majority. Why are they doing this? It's obvious he'll win the leadership election, so what do they hope to achieve?

It is no longer obvious. As mentioned before, he won 59% against 3 opponents. He has, despite what some of his fans will tell you, lost some of his original support. Against one person (Tom Watson or Angela Eagle, undecided as to which as I understand it), it will be a damn close run thing.

 

[Dave-Vale]

I saw him make a few very passionate speeches about the benefits of the EU.

He's just lost a vote of confidence 176-40.