The Labour Thread

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I don't see why that's amusing.

Because it's overtly radical and left-wing.

The universal basic income experiment in Finland has been implemented by the centre right ruling party. Economists from various points of the political spectrum such as Milton Friedman, Freidrich Hayek and Tony Atkinson have supported its introduction albeit in varying forms. It's certainly not a extreme policy.

It really is, hence why no country has adopted it and the best example you can find is a limited experiment in Finland that hasn't even begun, and may never do.

 

[Aber gas]

Because it's overtly radical and left-wing.



It really is, hence why no country has adopted it and the best example you can find is a limited experiment in Finland that hasn't even begun, and may never do.

Implemented by a government who are neither radical or left- wing. Are Milton Friedman and Hayek considered lefty economists ?

 

[Aber gas]

There are currently several trials and experiments involving universal basic income. France, parts of Africa , Ontario and even that well known bastion of lefty liberals Alaska. It's a becoming a lot more mainstream with the U.S government setting up a committee headed by Alan Krauger (sp) to look into its feasibility . It's really not a extreme left wing idea.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Implemented by a government who are neither radical or left- wing. Are Milton Friedman and Hayek considered lefty economists ?

What difference does that make? It's about the state redistributing wealth to the people, of course it's left wing. The only reason a centre-right party is even considering it is because they find themselves in a very particular circumstance in which they think they might save some money on welfare administration costs. Extreme is not the right word, but it certainly is radical.

 

[Abertawe]

What difference does that make? It's about the state redistributing wealth to the people, of course it's left wing. The only reason a centre-right party is even considering it is because they find themselves in a very particular circumstance in which they think they might save some money on welfare administration costs. Extreme is not the right word, but it certainly is radical.

Several respected academics have come to the conclusion that a universal income is somewhat inevitable. Technology and robots are replacing humans at a pretty fast rate and we haven't even seen 1/10th of what robots can do yet. Unless you abandon welfare as a concept, a universal income is inevitable because it'll be the most cost effective way of keeping people at an okay level.

 

[Kopper]

Agreed. If it's corporate welfare does that make it better though?

Care to back that up with stats? With the increase number of private tenants, I'm betting that HB has increased by more in the last 6 years. I don't think he was given that house because he didn't like the area, that's not how social housing works.

You're 3 years older than me, so yes, I did. Winter Fuel Payments are excellent in theory just don't agree with people, like my Nan, who had more than enough, should get them.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Times were shitty for the poorest and most vulnerable under Thatcher, don't think I'll ever disagree with you on that. Labour spent more money on welfare, through Tax Credits, and an increased state pension, but that's about it. You won't hear me moaning about their investment in health or education either.

Really? https://www.jrf.org.uk/press/most-d...have-borne-brunt-local-government-budget-cuts

Also worth looking at what the Local Government Association, which is Conservative run, have said about cuts to local authorities. https://www.theguardian.com/society...vernment-association-cannot-cope-further-cuts

They weren't "shitty" times they were desperate times. The fact your language doesn't seek to address the horrors of those times is a testament to the success of New Labour.

Society has all but forgotten.

But to say we are living in a similar age, today, is to divorce yourself from reality.

 

[Kopper]

Several respected academics have come to the conclusion that a universal income is somewhat inevitable. Technology and robots are replacing humans at a pretty fast rate and we haven't even seen 1/10th of what robots can do yet. Unless you abandon welfare as a concept, a universal income is inevitable because it'll be the most cost effective way of keeping people at an okay level.

Almost all of the world's problems stem from over population. Yet no political party dares mention it.

Why can't we incentivize single, childless, people.
Have an honest, informed public debate on the matter. Instead of wishing and hoping technology will see us clear of the problem.

 

[Pliny Harris]

There are currently several trials and experiments involving universal basic income. France, parts of Africa , Ontario and even that well known bastion of lefty liberals Alaska. It's a becoming a lot more mainstream with the U.S government setting up a committee headed by Alan Krauger (sp) to look into its feasibility . It's really not a extreme left wing idea.

I think the salient point is that any idea is pretty radical, amusing and useless unless it's been mooted by a prominent Tory.

If I had said this time last year that the next Tory PM would be discussing People's QE as a golden nugget policy to kick start her premiership, I'm sure I would've been derided. Back then it was just yet another brainfart from a stupid old socialist stuck in the '80s. Now it's May's idea too, it's getting a lot of "mm, ah, yes, I see what she's doing here". If she proposed women-only carriages on late-night trains the identity politicians would be doing cartwheels, and if she somehow imposed UBI(!), it'd be another tactical masterplan.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Almost all of the world's problems stem from over population. Yet no politic party dares mention it.

Why can't we incentivize single, childless, people.
Have an honest, informed public debate on the matter. Instead of wishing and hoping technology will see us clear of the problem.

What "we" do is irrelevant, because Western birthrates are only even kept above replacement levels by mass immigration. It's the developing world that has giant birthrates, not us.

 

[Kopper]

What "we" do is irrelevant, because Western birthrates are only even kept above replacement levels by mass immigration. It's the developing world that has giant birthrates, not us.

We in the west consume far more than those in developing countries. America has 4 per cent of the world's population but consumes 25 per cent of the world's oil.
If we in the west gave voice to over population, those in other countries and continents would begin to debate it openly too.

 

[Kopper]

You're 3 years older than me, so yes, I did. Winter Fuel Payments are excellent in theory just don't agree with people, like my Nan, who had more than enough, should get them.

Seeing elderly people die in their homes because they couldn't afford to heat them, was unconscionable to anyone on the left of the political spectrum.
The matter was so emotive, I doubt New Labour even did a cost analysis of the policy. This was in effect Tony Blair and New Labour saying "We don't give a shit what it cost or who among the elderly receive this benefit. We never want to see or hear of anything like this, ever happening again."

It's all well and good criticising the implementation of the winter fuel payments after nearly two decades of it's use. But you neglect the conditions and times from which these policies were born.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

This morning Angela Eagles' office in Liverpool was attacked with a brick thrown through the window.

 

[.V.]

They weren't "shitty" times they were desperate times. The fact your language doesn't seek to address the horrors of those times is a testament to the success of New Labour.

Society has all but forgotten.

But to say we are living in a similar age, today, is to divorce yourself from reality.

I'm sorry you don't think shitty was a strong enough phrase. I'm happy to agree with you on desperate.

Did you read the links I posted?

Homelessness has doubled since 2010.

http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/homeless-def-numbers.html

Over one million three-day emergency food were supplies given to people in crisis in 2015/16.

https://www.trusselltrust.org/news-and-blog/latest-stats/

Not desperate, times for those people?

Incidentally, I don't think I've drawn any comparisons with the 80's and the last 6 years.

Seeing elderly people die in their homes because they couldn't afford to heat them, was unconscionable to anyone on the left of the political spectrum.
The matter was so emotive, I doubt New Labour even did a cost analysis of the policy. This was in effect Tony Blair and New Labour saying "We don't give a shit what it cost or who among the elderly receive this benefit. We never want to see or hear of anything like this, ever happening again."

It's all well and good criticising the implementation of the winter fuel payments after nearly two decades of it's use. But you neglect the conditions and times from which these policies were born.

I think it's unconscionable to anyone.

I'm sure they did, and the reason it isn't means tested is because it would cost too much to administer. I'm certainly not saying that WFPs are a bad thing, just should go to the most vulnerable of people.

All in all your point seems to be that New Labour spent too much on welfare, but it was that spending on welfare which is decreasing the impact of austerity on the poorest. Have I got that right? It's just you seem to be singing the praises of WFPs and strongly criticising the policies of Thatcher, so I'm a bit confused is all.

 

[.V.]

This morning Angela Eagles' office in Liverpool was attacked with a brick thrown through the window.

Bellends!

 

[Abertawe]

Worried we'll be witnessing nationwide riots if the NEC attempt to withhold the will of democracy.

 

[.V.]

Worried we'll be witnessing nationwide riots if the NEC attempt to withhold the will of democracy.

I don't think there's any way this ends well sadly.

 

[smat]

Secret ballot. Probably means this is over.

I bet JC is going to breathe a great big sigh of relief.

 

[.V.]

Secret ballot. Probably means this is over.

I bet JC is going to breathe a great big sigh of relief.

I'm not so sure, think there'll be a number of law suits flying around from Momentum, trade unions etc.

 

[Gashead]

I'm not so sure, think there'll be a number of law suits flying around from Momentum, trade unions etc.

Dunno. Union members hold very different opinions to union leaders, and Momentum are a small grassroots organisation (where is the money coming from?)

I think the fall out is bad either way, but I think its worse if Corbyn is allowed on the ballot regardless.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

The problem for the MP's thinking they are playing a bloody 'Ace card with their method of ridding Labour of Corbyn is that they come over horrendously to the general public and will do for quite a long time....deceitful, sneaky, backstabbing and also as MP's who want things done their way regardless of what the Labour vote wishes.

that is going to lose them one hell of alot of base support.....................can they at all win it back in the long run will be an interesting thing.

 

[SUTSS]

Where does the base support go though? The Greens or SWP? They certainly don't go to the Tories.

It's not as if motions of no confidence haven't happened before. Corbyn himself has been a big part of them in the past. I don't think the public really care about the internal wranglings of the party. What they want is an effective opposition that look like a government in waiting, something that Corbyn simply can't deliver.

 

[smat]

The problem for the MP's thinking they are playing a bloody 'Ace card with their method of ridding Labour of Corbyn is that they come over horrendously to the general public and will do for quite a long time....deceitful, sneaky, backstabbing

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[Aber gas]

What's shameful about this situation ( one of many shameful things) is the lack of self confidence evident in the PLP. They haven't enough confidence in themselves or their argument to fight a leadership battle so instead show contempt for the people who fund and campaign for them by stifling the democratic process. I've heard a fair few people say with a good degree of certainty that Jeremy would now lose any leadership contest, well let's see.

 

[SUTSS]

Was it shameful when Corbyn tried to get rid of Kinnock?

 

[Aber gas]

Was it shameful when Corbyn tried to get rid of Kinnock?

Do you mean Tony Benn ?

 

[Aber gas]

Why do people keep mentioning the SWP like it's still a thing

 

[SUTSS]

Do you mean Tony Benn ?

So Tony Benn is shameful but the MPs that supported him, like Corbyn are fine?

 

[Abertawe]

The problem for the MP's thinking they are playing a bloody 'Ace card with their method of ridding Labour of Corbyn is that they come over horrendously to the general public and will do for quite a long time....deceitful, sneaky, backstabbing and also as MP's who want things done their way regardless of what the Labour vote wishes.

that is going to lose them one hell of alot of base support.....................can they at all win it back in the long run will be an interesting thing.

I can't see them winning the leadership contest in any event. Corbyn stays, he wins by a landslide. If he's omitted from the ballot the left will put up a candidate, perhaps Clive Lewis. If Corbyn does go, my money will be on Burnham though. His conduct post brexit will appease the membership and he's enough support within the PLP. I think he understands the growing movement around politics and was deftly taken aback with the support of the people Corbyn garnered first time round. Centrist enough to bring both sides together.too.

 

[Aber gas]

So Tony Benn is shameful but the MPs that supported him, like Corbyn are fine?

I'm trying to work out what you are talking about.

 

[SUTSS]

If the MPs now are shameful doesn't it follow that mps involved in previous attempts to oust a leader, like Corbyn has been, are also shameful or is it fine when he does it?