The Labour Thread

[Kopper]

There's no point in treating the PLP as one mass of people, as I think views certainly have varied a lot during JC's leadership. The near-unanimous opposition to him is relatively recent. A vocal minority were against him from the very start. What I'm saying is that a lot of people have tried to work with him, and have found it unworkable. The two pieces I cited are just two examples of Shadow Cabinet ministers outlining their specific issues of him not being able to lead the party.

Quite frankly, I don't take Diane particularly seriously. She has shown herself utterly divorced from reality in her recent media appearances. Nobody is trying to 'break him as a man'. People are asking him to resign, for the good of the party and in the long term the country. I don't know what constitutes 'the most contemptuous possible terms'. She doesn't quote any names, phrases or speeches.

This is all a matter of perspective and interpretation, yes. From my perspective, I have seen a lot of inaccurate criticisms being thrown at many of Corbyn's opponents. But to be honest, all of this will always come back to the same, fundamental point. The PLP don't think he can win a general election, and frankly he doesn't seem very interested in winning a general election. On these grounds, he's not fit to be the leader, and they wouldn't be doing their jobs to sit there and blindly support him.



I wasn't saying she was being honest. I wasn't saying it wasn't hogwash. But it's the message she's sending out, that nobody is countering.

Jeremy Corbyn can neither win a general election, nor unite the PLP, so it is sensible to look at someone who can at least get one of these things right ...

A lot of people said they wanted a new kind of politics. In Corbyn they got it. Now some of those same people vilify him for not playing the game.
He really can't win.

Ed Miliband was never going to win an election, but the PLP reluctantly stuck with him. Why not show the same fortitude with Corbyn?

Ok, Labour oust Corbyn and install Owen. He loses in 2020 (can we agree on him losing a GE?). Where does Labour go from there?

I asked you this before, but why do you want Labour in power?
Is it political tribalism? Is it because of their policies or does it benefit you personally in some way?

 

[.V.]

Why would we assume Owen Smith would lose in 2020? There's nothing to suggest Corbyn will win, so in electoral terms, what've we got to lose? Unless you mean the party will split, in which case neither Labour Party will win, I agree.

I want Labour to be in power because I think they will do a better job at governing for the majority and not just the upper and middle classes. I think they'll do more to make Britain a more egalitarian place, where hard work and talent, and not the school you went to or the people you know, play the biggest part in how you succeed in life. I personally probably won't do any better under Labour than I will under the Tories.

 

[FrazerLloyd]

Why would we assume Owen Smith would lose in 2020?

Because he isn't going to be on the ballot.

He won't beat Jeremy Corbyn. When he loses it's time the MPs of the PLP got behind JC, stopped plotting his downfall and went to work on the Tories. You're right, there wasn't a bump when JC became leader, because there wasn't allowed to be.

This coup is nothing new. It is not a result of the Brexit vote. It is because the PLP do not want the Labour Party moving left. They do not want to lose their comfy seats to left-wingers. They do not want Jeremy Corbyn to WIN.

All this 'unelectable' nonsense is excactly that, nonsense. Look at the support and success Corbyn has had without the backing of the PLP. Imagine what he could do if the PLP actually backed him and didn't undermine him at every turn.

He has the largest mandate to govern a party we've ever seen in British politics and he may well increase that when standing against Smith. Yet apparently, he's unelectable. I call bullshit.

 

[.V.]

I agree that Corbyn will remain leader of the Labour Party.

Having support of the electorate and having the support of party members, who are to the left of the electorate, are two different things though, obviously.

Polling shows Corbyn is unelectable. A few links I've already posted but you may have missed.

https://twitter.com/benjiw/status/754410308727341058

https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/754392773332262912

 

[GodsGift]

This is the support Corbyn & McDonnell offered Ed Miliband 3 weeks before 2015 election...

 

[FrazerLloyd]

I agree that Corbyn will remain leader of the Labour Party.

Having support of the electorate and having the support of party members, who are to the left of the electorate, are two different things though, obviously.

Polling shows Corbyn is unelectable. A few links I've already posted but you may have missed.

https://twitter.com/benjiw/status/754410308727341058

https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/754392773332262912

Do you not think that a lot of that has to do with the lack of support shown by the Labour Party and by the media bias proven to be against him?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...resentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html

We can chuck stats and articles between us all we like. We'll both be able to find an abudance of evidence to support our opinions, but until he stands, we won't know for sure.

Of course, the views of the electorate and that of Party members will differ, but these Party members weren't in Labour prior to Jeremy becoming leader. They were either with another Party, or not voting at all.

What's more, let's not forget two facts: 1. The Labour Party were performing poorly before Jeremy Corbyn and 2. Polls have been wrong time and time again.

 

[The Jovial Forester]

This is the support Corbyn & McDonnell offered Ed Miliband 3 weeks before 2015 election...

If the coup plotters could limit themselves to loyal awkward squadism as Corbyn has down the years no-one would mind. Bit different to their current tactic of burning the car if they don't get to drive.

 

[FrazerLloyd]

This is the support Corbyn & McDonnell offered Ed Miliband 3 weeks before 2015 election...

You cannot that to the tactics employed by the Labour Coup.

 

[SUTSS]

If everyone was just nice to Jeremy....

 

[.V.]

Do you not think that a lot of that has to do with the lack of support shown by the Labour Party and by the media bias proven to be against him?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...resentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html

We can chuck stats and articles between us all we like. We'll both be able to find an abudance of evidence to support our opinions, but until he stands, we won't know for sure.

Of course, the views of the electorate and that of Party members will differ, but these Party members weren't in Labour prior to Jeremy becoming leader. They were either with another Party, or not voting at all.

What's more, let's not forget two facts: 1. The Labour Party were performing poorly before Jeremy Corbyn and 2. Polls have been wrong time and time again.

I don't think it's helped, and I do think the media coverage of Corbyn has been unfair, but I don't think the media coverage is going to change sadly.

But the polls are painting a picture, and have been consistent in this with large margins. It's now a trend. The polling in key marginals is not looking any better.

They weren't, but again, those aren't the people he needs to win over in a general election, and he does need to win them over in England.

Performing poorly is all relative though. The Tories have a small majority at the moment, but if May was to call an election in the next year I can see the Labour Party losing seats, not gaining them. I suspect the only reason May won't call one is the concern that UKIP will pick up a number of seats from Labour.

I want to add that I would like a Corbyn Premiership, but some of the comments regarding his leadership of the party, from people not considered Blairites or on the right of the party, are alarming. The Labour Party is primarily a party to win elections and implement legislation, not solely a movement or pressure group, which is how it is acting at the moment.

 

[FrazerLloyd]

I think you make a lot of good points, but I do think Jeremy Corbyn would do better in a General Election than many people, his opponents in particular, think. Only time will tell as I expect he'll trounce Smith in the leadership election.

I just hope, although I doubt it'll happen, that should he win again, that this time he is supported by the PLP. Labour has spent the last 9 months bickering amongst themselves when they should be taking on the Tory Party.

 

[SUTSS]

I think you make a lot of good points, but I do think Jeremy Corbyn would do better in a General Election than many people, his opponents in particular, think. Only time will tell as I expect he'll trounce Smith in the leadership election.

I just hope, although I doubt it'll happen, that should he win again, that this time he is supported by the PLP. Labour has spent the last 9 months bickering amongst themselves when they should be taking on the Tory Party.

Corbyn himself is awful at this. His PMQs are dreadful and he didn't make a comment on May become PM and the new shadow cabinet. He applies zero pressure to the Tories and hasn't since his first day.

There are plently of MPs who supported Corbyn at the start who have realised that he needs to go for Labour to have a future. Not fair to say that they have been against him since day 1.

 

[Kopper]

If in the unlikely event Owen Smith were to win the Labour leadership. He will find swing voters are on the right of the political spectrum.
Why is it so hard for some posters to see this reality?
Owen Smith nor anyone else on the left could move the party that far right and remain credible. That's why the Conservatives will win an increased majority in 2020.

Theresa May made the quib the Tories had 2 women Prime Ministers. But I would argue intentionally and unintentionally Labour had provided the environment for both to do so.

 

[.V.]

I think you make a lot of good points, but I do think Jeremy Corbyn would do better in a General Election than many people, his opponents in particular, think. Only time will tell as I expect he'll trounce Smith in the leadership election.

I just hope, although I doubt it'll happen, that should he win again, that this time he is supported by the PLP. Labour has spent the last 9 months bickering amongst themselves when they should be taking on the Tory Party.

I hope you're proved right, and that Corbyn learns from this in a way that translates to a more united party, and better polling figures for him and the party.

I agree with that, they should be focusing on the Tories, not each other.

 

[FrazerLloyd]

Corbyn himself is awful at this. His PMQs are dreadful and he didn't make a comment on May become PM and the new shadow cabinet. He applies zero pressure to the Tories and hasn't since his first day.

There are plently of MPs who supported Corbyn at the start who have realised that he needs to go for Labour to have a future. Not fair to say that they have been against him since day 1.

Are his PMQs dreadful, or does he refuse to partake in the childish squabbling that has now become common place in the chamber?

Take PMQs this week as an example. May was roundly decided upon as the 'winner', with the main highlight being her calling Jeremy Corbyn an 'unscrupulous boss'. She didn't answer the question put to her though did she? She didn't answer a lot in fact. Nor did she say anything of any real value. A lot like Cameron has been doing over the last couple of months.

It's getting very formulaic. Corbyn asks a question, the Tories reply with an insult and Corbyn has 'lost'. Then when Corbyn refuses to react in kind, and instead talks about policy, also known as doing his job, he's considered to be doing a bad job.

I agree that there have been plenty of MPs that have backed Corbyn, but this coup didn't start after Brexit did it? The undermining has been going on for months. And as another poster has said, it hasn't been tutting or just disagreeing as a back party rebel, it has been throwing whatever they can get their hands on out of the pram.

 

[SUTSS]

Corbyn is awful at PMQs. He never drives home a message. He asks a question, Cameron/May then doesn't answer, he moves on to the next. That's not applying any pressure and allowing it to be an easy time for whoever he is facing. the fact of it is they don't need to say a lot because Corbyn never drives the point home, he never puts them on the back foot and just lets them off with it.

If Corbyn was a good leader he'd win people round (there are some issues with some of his beliefs and he'd never win everyone round but people would be queit) but what you are hearing is the same thing from many people on all sides of the Labour party and people that had been advisors. That he never sets down any coherent policy in PLP meetings, that he is hard to reach, that he refuses to engage with people, that he doesn't listen to anyone in the shadow cabinet or his advisors. One or two people saying this and you could say it was something personal but this is coming up time and time again. The truth is he's just not very good at his job.

 

[.V.]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/...trol-the-pro?utm_term=.mo08NOL968#.mo08NOL968

 

[Abertawe]

I'm really struggling to see how you can draw conclusions from a Corbyn v May poll considering the current climate. I'd say no shit, one has the entirety of their party behind them and the other is being torn apart by snakes and vultures. The only polls that count at this stage are Corbyn v Smith (& Eagles up until a few days ago) and they only favour one person by a massive margin. Indeed, before the referendum Corbyn was actually achieving some pretty good polling ratings.

Moving onto the unelectable myth I was astonished to find the striking similarities in the remarks made about Thatcher prior to her winning in 1979.

That such little was known or superannuated grandness were seriously propose indicated both the party's desperation and the establishment's abiding snobbery: the one Cabinet office, and that a welfare department where she was widely thought to have been dominated by her civil servants. She had never made a speech of any importance outside her own frontbench or departmental brief: even to her admirers she looked more like a natural follower than a potential leader. The left dismissed her as a strident right-winger, but the younger right-wingers of the 1970's intake like Norman Tebbit were not impressed by what they had seen of her either. Above all she was judged to be too narrowly suburban, middle-class and southern in image and appeal - though this caricature was often expressed in thoroughly sexist terms. Derek Marks in the Daily Express, for instance, thought her 'totally out of touch with anybody but carefully conseted, middle-class, middle-aged ladies'. Woodrow Wyatt in the Sunday Mirror still saw her as 'a limited, bossy, self-righteous and self-complacent woman' who would take the Tory party in 'an extremist, class-conscious, right wing direction' which would keep it out of office for a decade. 'To anyone north of the Trent', David Watt wrote in the Financial Times, 'she might as well come from Mars.'

History does seem to suggest that the establishment of the day always struggle with ideological shifts and we're experiencing a huge shift right about now.

If the left is unelectable then how does that explain the SNP?

Was Tony Blair elected on right wing principles? He certainly didn't make mention of academy schools, privatization of elements of the NHS, financial deregulation, PFI & tuition fees. New Labour was built on left ideals.

Over the five years of a Labour government:
1 Education will be our number one priority, and we will increase the share of national income spent on education as we decrease it on the bills of economic and social failure
2 There will be no increase in the basic or top rates of income tax

3 We will provide stable economic growth with low inflation, and promote dynamic and competitive business and industry at home and abroad

4 We will get 250,000 young unemployed off benefit and into work

5 We will rebuild the NHS, reducing spending on administration and increasing spending on patient care

6 We will be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime, and halve the time it takes persistent juvenile offenders to come to court

7 We will help build strong families and strong communities, and lay the foundations of a modern welfare state in pensions and community care

8 We will safeguard our environment, and develop an integrated transport policy to fight congestion and pollution

9 We will clean up politics, decentralise political power throughout the United Kingdom and put the funding of political parties on a proper and accountable basis

10 We will give Britain the leadership in Europe which Britain and Europe need

If was only after they got into power that the right ideals reared themselves and left policies on the whole were left behind. What happened after actual Labour policy moved to the right? Err, their grip of power diminished.

1997 - 43.2%
2001 - 40.7%
2005 - 35.2%
2010 - 29%

So if the electorate want a right leaning Labour, why does history paint a different picture?

Another tactic to dismiss the left is to point to Micheal Foot. Conversely either on purpose or through pure ignorance don't point to the fact he was smashing Thatcher in polls, socialist polices an all, right up until the Falklands happened.

Those making mention to the opinions of individuals from the former shadow cabinet is strange all things considered. Is it any wonder Corbyn was distrustful of the shadow cabinet when details were being leaked to the Tories from within the shadow? Vid should play from the point a definite leak is established.

You've all just gotta be patient. Once this leadership election is done with deselection for the coup scum won't take long. We will then have a united Labour working on ideals that are proven to resonate with the electorate. Even better though is the galvanization Corbyn produces from those previously excluded from anything political. I don't know what metropolitan elite bubble the likes of Max bounds around in but I'm seeing people getting behind a politician that I didn't think was possible. To say the marginals aren't gonna want free tuition for their kids, that they would prefer to keep a failing private transport system and they quite like getting ripped off by energy companies is folly.

As I say, we just gotta be patient and we'll have a party that actually serves the people rather than this current crop of career elitists that only want the power for themselves. Some people on here treat politics like they do their football team. There is no point 'supporting' the red team if they're gonna serve their own interests over yours. I've called people brainwashed and will stand by that if you continue to back political elitists over people who have YOUR interests at the heart of everything they do.

The establishment hate it, their interests of threatened by a Corbyn governement and they will use everything within their power to stop him.

To believe the likes of Owen f'king Smith is a better bet than Corbyn is brain addled manipulation. Though I suppose for the simplistics if 75% of your news conveys anti Corbyn propaganda then it's to be expected. Carry on supporting the red team despite the red being the away kit for the blue.

 

[The Jovial Forester]

The idea that anyone outside of parliament, some journos and wonks gives a shit what is said at PMQs is of a piece with buying into the hand-wringy Westminster bubble nonsense that reckons Corbyn or a successor from his wing of the party is unelectable. They might get a clever put-down off May to cherry pick for the news but in so far as any ordinary voter pays attention at all I reckon they would far prefer the Corbyn style to contentless zingers - certainly that's what's said frequently when people are polled about what they want from a politican, substance over style.
Still reckon if Corbyn can win this fight and develop a manifesto full of the policies he holds that poll very well (nationalisations, social housing, NHS etc) then he or that successor can win the next election, and for once it would make a significant difference for the better that Labour did, rather than being lesser of two evils.

 

[Max]

When they said "Anyone But Corbyn" they really meant it, didn't they? May as well put an expired Frube up for the leadership election.

I get the feeling the PLP have only mustered two unknowns for the election because most of them know it's curtains for their career if they (most likely) fail to get in. The Tristrams and Hilarys don't want to take that risk when they're dining Lib Dems and One Nation Tories over the autumn and winter.

Confidence from his constituency? Corbyn wins.
Confidence from CLPs nationwide? Corbyn wins.
Most cogent vision for the country? Corbyn wins.
Recognisability within the party? Corbyn wins.
Discernible from other parties? Corbyn wins.
Vision post-Brexit? Corbyn wins.
Consistent policy? Corbyn wins.
UK-wide polling? Corbyn wins.
Labour values? Corbyn wins.
Sincerity? Corbyn wins.

PLP support? Smith wins.

All proven elements. Smith might put together a policy quicker and actually meet media deadlines but it's anyone's guess. Those are the proven, "safety" elements rated so much by those eager to say that Blair won three elections. Far from ideal at present even if the PLP had shown the vaguest solidarity over the past year, but for anyone who has a desire to live in a UK where there's enough for everybody and the vulnerable aren't punished for the sake of political expediency, it's easily the best we've got (south of the border???!!!).

Jeremy Corbyn definitely has the confidence of his constituency, and CLPs, but that does not mean he can command support of people in a general election.

I don't understand Corbyn's vision for the country. I hear a lot of slogans, and he spends a lot of time speaking to audiences that already like him, but I don't know what he'd do if he was PM tomorrow.

To pick you up on a few other things, almost all Labour MPs are discernible from the opposition, and Owen Smith certainly is.

Jeremy Corbyn has no post-Brexit plan. He said we should trigger article 50 immediately, despite no idea or plan of what should happen re: Brexit. He was against the EU, campaigned for it, and then wants us out as quick as possible. His policies are entirely consistent with where they were in the 1980s, and the country has changed.

Also, UK-wide polling? How does Corbyn win?! He is popular among Labour party members, loads of whom signed up to vote for him. So that's ... circular reasoning at best. He currently trails May by 11%.

As for Labour values, he does not get to define them. He's been in the party for a long time, granted, but so have a lot of his opponents. He's been in a small minority of Labour for a long time, and does not have a monopoly on some weird version of Labour purity.

A lot of people said they wanted a new kind of politics. In Corbyn they got it. Now some of those same people vilify him for not playing the game.
He really can't win.

Ed Miliband was never going to win an election, but the PLP reluctantly stuck with him. Why not show the same fortitude with Corbyn?

Ok, Labour oust Corbyn and install Owen. He loses in 2020 (can we agree on him losing a GE?). Where does Labour go from there?

I asked you this before, but why do you want Labour in power?
Is it political tribalism? Is it because of their policies or does it benefit you personally in some way?

You are not getting a new kind of politics.

Today at his press launch, he only answered questions from pre-agreed reporters. He campaigned for staying in the EU, sort of, while undermining the Remain campaign and actually wanting to Leave. He used to call for Labour leadership elections every year and is now appalled to be challenged. He's playing the same game as everyone else, he's just not very good at it.

The reason to not stay with Corbyn as they did with Miliband is because Miliband lost. He lost badly. It was a lesson that Labour should not have stuck with him, much as I like Ed. When Corbyn is doing worse, you don't stick with him, because you don't get points for loyalty, you just get perpetual Tory governments.

Jeremy didn't even want to be leader of the party, and has shown no enthusiasm for winning an election. I think Owen is a very long shot, but Jeremy Corbyn has no chance whatsoever. If all Owen does is some steady leadership for a couple of years before another leadership election pre-2020, that would be an improvement of the current dug-in trench of Jeremy's leadership.

I want Labour in power because they have a proven track record of delivering better policies, laws and fairness than the alternative. I want Labour in power because all while growing up, I saw them do things I was passionate about: the minimum wage, civil partnerships and gay adoption, improving the NHS, actually spending money on public services, banning fox hunting, scrapping section 28, the Good Friday agreement, devolution, totally changing the way the government treated International Development.

You get none of this in constant opposition. You get nowhere unless you want to win general elections. Tribalism can be found in the Jeremy Corbyn camp, who are happy to lose so long as they get to do it while shouting through a loudspeaker in Parliament square.

Because he isn't going to be on the ballot.

He won't beat Jeremy Corbyn. When he loses it's time the MPs of the PLP got behind JC, stopped plotting his downfall and went to work on the Tories. You're right, there wasn't a bump when JC became leader, because there wasn't allowed to be.

This coup is nothing new. It is not a result of the Brexit vote. It is because the PLP do not want the Labour Party moving left. They do not want to lose their comfy seats to left-wingers. They do not want Jeremy Corbyn to WIN.

All this 'unelectable' nonsense is excactly that, nonsense. Look at the support and success Corbyn has had without the backing of the PLP. Imagine what he could do if the PLP actually backed him and didn't undermine him at every turn.

He has the largest mandate to govern a party we've ever seen in British politics and he may well increase that when standing against Smith. Yet apparently, he's unelectable. I call bullshit.

He probably won't, but he might.

I would question if you have read anything written by Heidi Alexander or Lillian Greenwood, MPs that resigned. They are not right-wing, they worked to help Jeremy do well, and his incompetence made it impossible.

Today he unveiled one policy at his campaign launch (about doing a pay review in companies - good idea, to be fair), then refused to say he'd have one in his own office. He parachuted Ken Livingstone into the defence review for no reason. He has no media strategy, and has in the past refused to brief his own Shadow Cabinet members and then contradicted them. Corbyn has made a fine art of being useless as a leader of the opposition, and his fans see him as a saint. There is apparently literally nothing he can do wrong that will be noticed or mentioned. Everything gets denied.

Please show me one Labour result that Corbyn has been responsible for. All the elections have been good, but in obvious and safe areas. You cannot count them for or against him.

Also he's the only person we've had elected in the one person one vote system, so the mandate argument isn't really comparable with anyone else. Though arguably Kinnock's support was far closer to unanimous.

And finally, you MUST understand the difference between being electable among the Labour party members, and electable among the general public. The two are not the same thing.

 

[Max]

To believe the likes of Owen f'king Smith is a better bet than Corbyn is brain addled manipulation. Though I suppose for the simplistics if 75% of your news conveys anti Corbyn propaganda then it's to be expected. Carry on supporting the red team despite the red being the away kit for the blue.

Please explain how Owen Smith is a Tory.

 

[SUTSS]

It's not that people care most people don't watch it of course but it is where you can put the government under pressure. Corbyn misses opportunities to do this, both at PMQs and at any other time.

And what is Corbyn's substance? He talks in vague notions about being anti-austerity and pro-NHS but these aren't substance, they're slogans.

 

[smat]

^^ That Max post is outstanding IMVHO. I have never really subscribed to that 'Corbyn is unelectable' thing but there has been a recent deluge of stories exposing his basic incompetence. I wouldn't pay any attention but they're coming from people who were on his side! I mostly like his policies, but it's abundantly clear that he is not a very good leader of the opposition. If members vote for him again then it's a fucking disaster, especially as the rebel MPs aren't just going to 'sit down and shut up' (as one of them put it succinctly to their leader a couple of weeks ago). We can't afford for Labour to be tearing itself apart over the next four years. Now, more than ever, we need them to be holding the government properly to account.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

This is a decent read http://www.theguardian.com/politics...what-the-partys-brutal-1981-split-means-today

Probably only really served to compound my GLOOM about the present situation but NEVERMIND

 

[Alty]

Just to throw a random point into the mixer...

Clement Attlee is widely believed to be Labour's greatest ever leader. He was not obsessed with taking the limelight. He didn't see himself as some sort of messiah. He believed in a consensual form of government in which all members of the Cabinet were to play an equally important role both in campaigning and, ultimately, in ruling the country.

I know that both politics and the country in general have moved on, but we're not so far away from that mind-set, are we? I quite like the idea of a down to earth, approachable Prime Minister who's as keen to listen as to be listened to. Whatever else I think of him - and I certainly do have criticisms - I still believe Jeremy Corbyn is a good man and that his fundamental political beliefs (i.e. genuine tax and spend + Euroscepticism) are actually closer to the way ordinary people think than a Blairite like Alan Johnson (nice chap though he is).

Setting all that aside, if nothing else, Corbyn has generated an enormous amount of cash in membership/supporter fees over the last year. Labour has been broke for years but Corbyn is directly responsible for bringing in several million pounds!

 

[Abertawe]

Please explain how Owen Smith is a Tory.

I did say I wasn't going to converse with you on this topic but never mind, I'm not true to my word.

In answer your question in the same way Tony Blair is a Tory but let's not go through all that again. I can give you my view of the normal Owen Smith though if you'd like.

Looking at his history he makes David Cameron look like a grafter.

1992: Graduated from Sussex University.
1992-2002: BBC radio producer for shows like Today.
2002-2005: SpAd for Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy.
2005-2008: Head of Government relations for Pfizer..
2010: Elected MP for Pontypridd.
2012-2015: Shadow Welsh Secretary.
2015-2016: Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary.

The only real job he's had was as political lobbyist for pharmaceutical firms where he advocated PFI within the NHS and whole-scale privatization of certain elements, although he now pretends he didn't. One thing he can't deny is that he carried on his lobbying after he became an MP, he's on record saying that we need to offer more 'economic incentives' to pharmaceutical firms that are already worth over $200 billion. He's also spoken about how the NHS shouldn't use non-patented drugs that do the same job, despite being cheaper, because it would adversely effect the big players like Pfizer. Have I mentioned the bit where he was the UK pr man for Amgen? Ya know, the company that was fined close to a billion dollars for illegally promoting drugs that weren't approved which ultimately led to patient deaths.

He abstained from the welfare bill, as did your non right wing examples Heidi Alexander & Lillian Greenwood, I'm guessing you don't grasp what right wing is or what Labour should stand for. Any Labour MP who voted for or was absent from that bill is a disgrace.
"The main changes in the Bill are reducing the household welfare cap from £26,000 to £23,000, abolishing legally binding child poverty targets, cuts to child tax credits, cuts to Employment and Support Allowance, and cuts to housing benefit for young people."

He's also pro austerity, he's made reference to it multiple times and quite bizarrely carried that on the other day by saying "austerity is right" and had to be bailed out by Angela Eagles, when she quickly remarked, "we're both anti-austerity".

He's Tony Blairs homeboy, he's the chosen one to keep Labour right-wing and ensure power remains in the hands of big business. Why else would he be parachuted from seemingly obscurity to would be Labour leader. This coup has been a long time coming and it appears Eagles was just bait, John Mann let the cat out of the bag by announcing he was approached to back Owen Smith for leader 6 months ago https://twitter.com/johnmannmp/status/753126292183285760. Pfizer making some cheeky donations to Blairs think tank Progess, well strictly speaking it ain't Blair but his mates.Derek Draper, wiki him.

He loves Blair too.

Would you describe yourself as a socialist?
"I am a democratic socialist, yes."
And Mr Blair, is he a socialist?
"Yes."
"The invasion of Iraq was a mistake," he offers. "The world would have been a safer place if we hadn't done it."
Any other areas of difference with Mr Blair?
"No, I don't think so."

There are quotes that contradict his view on Iraq there, further proving he's full of shit.

Forgiving those misdemeanors he's just pretty shit. It's strange there's been literally no mention that he lost the Blaenau Gwent bye-election, despite Labour absolutely swamping the area during the campaign, spending in excess of the allowed limits. He also rings 999 to get a quote from the police.

Kindly informing Leanne Wood that she gets on Question Time because she's a woman. Brilliant ammunition for Theresa May.
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/owen-smith-told-leanne-wood-11613820

If Owen Smith is the best they can up with then this orchestrated coup might as well just give up. Jeremy got this in the bag. Will you vote Labour in 2020 seeing as they'll be headed by Jezza and a lot of the right wingers eradicated from the party?

 

[Kopper]

I did say I wasn't going to converse with you on this topic but never mind, I'm not true to my word.

In answer your question in the same way Tony Blair is a Tory but let's not go through all that again. I can give you my view of the normal Owen Smith though if you'd like.

Looking at his history he makes David Cameron look like a grafter.

1992: Graduated from Sussex University.
1992-2002: BBC radio producer for shows like Today.
2002-2005: SpAd for Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy.
2005-2008: Head of Government relations for Pfizer..
2010: Elected MP for Pontypridd.
2012-2015: Shadow Welsh Secretary.
2015-2016: Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary.

The only real job he's had was as political lobbyist for pharmaceutical firms where he advocated PFI within the NHS and whole-scale privatization of certain elements, although he now pretends he didn't. One thing he can't deny is that he carried on his lobbying after he became an MP, he's on record saying that we need to offer more 'economic incentives' to pharmaceutical firms that are already worth over $200 billion. He's also spoken about how the NHS shouldn't use non-patented drugs that do the same job, despite being cheaper, because it would adversely effect the big players like Pfizer. Have I mentioned the bit where he was the UK pr man for Amgen? Ya know, the company that was fined close to a billion dollars for illegally promoting drugs that weren't approved which ultimately led to patient deaths.

He abstained from the welfare bill, as did your non right wing examples Heidi Alexander & Lillian Greenwood, I'm guessing you don't grasp what right wing is or what Labour should stand for. Any Labour MP who voted for or was absent from that bill is a disgrace.
"The main changes in the Bill are reducing the household welfare cap from £26,000 to £23,000, abolishing legally binding child poverty targets, cuts to child tax credits, cuts to Employment and Support Allowance, and cuts to housing benefit for young people."

He's also pro austerity, he's made reference to it multiple times and quite bizarrely carried that on the other day by saying "austerity is right" and had to be bailed out by Angela Eagles, when she quickly remarked, "we're both anti-austerity".

He's Tony Blairs homeboy, he's the chosen one to keep Labour right-wing and ensure power remains in the hands of big business. Why else would he be parachuted from seemingly obscurity to would be Labour leader. This coup has been a long time coming and it appears Eagles was just bait, John Mann let the cat out of the bag by announcing he was approached to back Owen Smith for leader 6 months ago https://twitter.com/johnmannmp/status/753126292183285760. Pfizer making some cheeky donations to Blairs think tank Progess, well strictly speaking it ain't Blair but his mates.Derek Draper, wiki him.

He loves Blair too.

Would you describe yourself as a socialist?
"I am a democratic socialist, yes."
And Mr Blair, is he a socialist?
"Yes."
"The invasion of Iraq was a mistake," he offers. "The world would have been a safer place if we hadn't done it."
Any other areas of difference with Mr Blair?
"No, I don't think so."

There are quotes that contradict his view on Iraq there, further proving he's full of shit.

Forgiving those misdemeanors he's just pretty shit. It's strange there's been literally no mention that he lost the Blaenau Gwent bye-election, despite Labour absolutely swamping the area during the campaign, spending in excess of the allowed limits. He also rings 999 to get a quote from the police.

Kindly informing Leanne Wood that she gets on Question Time because she's a woman. Brilliant ammunition for Theresa May.
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/owen-smith-told-leanne-wood-11613820

If Owen Smith is the best they can up with then this orchestrated coup might as well just give up. Jeremy got this in the bag. Will you vote Labour in 2020 seeing as they'll be headed by Jezza and a lot of the right wingers eradicated from the party?

Corbyn is a principled and decent human being. His politics reflects this. But the problem is his economic policies are unworkable.
Look what happened when Nick Clegg campaigned for an end to tuition fees and went back on his word, once he was in power and saw it was unachievable.
Although Corbyn wouldn't go back on his word. He would rather bankrupt the country.
The Lib Dems paid the price at the ballot box. What price is worth Corbyn being right in what says and promises?

 

[Abertawe]

Corbyn is a principled and decent human being. His politics reflects this. But the problem is his economic policies are unworkable.
Look what happened when Nick Clegg campaigned for an end to tuition fees and went back on his word, once he was in power and saw it was unachievable.
Although Corbyn wouldn't go back on his word. He would rather bankrupt the country.
The Lib Dems paid the price at the ballot box. What price is worth Corbyn being right in what says and promises?

What evidence have you got to backup your theory that a Corbyn government would "bankrupt the country"?

 

[Max]

I did say I wasn't going to converse with you on this topic but never mind, I'm not true to my word.

In answer your question in the same way Tony Blair is a Tory but let's not go through all that again. I can give you my view of the normal Owen Smith though if you'd like.

Looking at his history he makes David Cameron look like a grafter.

1992: Graduated from Sussex University.
1992-2002: BBC radio producer for shows like Today.
2002-2005: SpAd for Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy.
2005-2008: Head of Government relations for Pfizer..
2010: Elected MP for Pontypridd.
2012-2015: Shadow Welsh Secretary.
2015-2016: Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary.

The only real job he's had was as political lobbyist for pharmaceutical firms where he advocated PFI within the NHS and whole-scale privatization of certain elements, although he now pretends he didn't. One thing he can't deny is that he carried on his lobbying after he became an MP, he's on record saying that we need to offer more 'economic incentives' to pharmaceutical firms that are already worth over $200 billion. He's also spoken about how the NHS shouldn't use non-patented drugs that do the same job, despite being cheaper, because it would adversely effect the big players like Pfizer. Have I mentioned the bit where he was the UK pr man for Amgen? Ya know, the company that was fined close to a billion dollars for illegally promoting drugs that weren't approved which ultimately led to patient deaths.

He abstained from the welfare bill, as did your non right wing examples Heidi Alexander & Lillian Greenwood, I'm guessing you don't grasp what right wing is or what Labour should stand for. Any Labour MP who voted for or was absent from that bill is a disgrace.
"The main changes in the Bill are reducing the household welfare cap from £26,000 to £23,000, abolishing legally binding child poverty targets, cuts to child tax credits, cuts to Employment and Support Allowance, and cuts to housing benefit for young people."

He's also pro austerity, he's made reference to it multiple times and quite bizarrely carried that on the other day by saying "austerity is right" and had to be bailed out by Angela Eagles, when she quickly remarked, "we're both anti-austerity".

He's Tony Blairs homeboy, he's the chosen one to keep Labour right-wing and ensure power remains in the hands of big business. Why else would he be parachuted from seemingly obscurity to would be Labour leader. This coup has been a long time coming and it appears Eagles was just bait, John Mann let the cat out of the bag by announcing he was approached to back Owen Smith for leader 6 months ago https://twitter.com/johnmannmp/status/753126292183285760. Pfizer making some cheeky donations to Blairs think tank Progess, well strictly speaking it ain't Blair but his mates.Derek Draper, wiki him.

He loves Blair too.

Would you describe yourself as a socialist?
"I am a democratic socialist, yes."
And Mr Blair, is he a socialist?
"Yes."
"The invasion of Iraq was a mistake," he offers. "The world would have been a safer place if we hadn't done it."
Any other areas of difference with Mr Blair?
"No, I don't think so."

There are quotes that contradict his view on Iraq there, further proving he's full of shit.

Forgiving those misdemeanors he's just pretty shit. It's strange there's been literally no mention that he lost the Blaenau Gwent bye-election, despite Labour absolutely swamping the area during the campaign, spending in excess of the allowed limits. He also rings 999 to get a quote from the police.

Kindly informing Leanne Wood that she gets on Question Time because she's a woman. Brilliant ammunition for Theresa May.
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/owen-smith-told-leanne-wood-11613820

If Owen Smith is the best they can up with then this orchestrated coup might as well just give up. Jeremy got this in the bag. Will you vote Labour in 2020 seeing as they'll be headed by Jezza and a lot of the right wingers eradicated from the party?

You have said on multiple occasions that I am brainwashed. You also said, and I'll try to get the spirit right rather than the exact wording, that a fairer society need not mean everyone sitting around eating equal portions of potatoes.

But you are remarkably fixed and oddly dictatorial on what you think disbars someone from being interested in fairness and equality, and capable of caring about other people. Your criteria for being 'Labour' is very restrictive. From your above point, it appears you are implying, and you are of course free to unpick this, but you quoted these things presumably for a reason:

Going to university makes you a bit suspect and a bit Tory?
Working for the BBC for 10 years is not a real job? Actually no you actually go and just say that later. Please do provide full list of 'real jobs'.
There is something inherently wrong with working in politics? Like as a special adviser? (Now, granted Jeremy's never done that, but he's certainly a career politician). Apparently praising Tony Blair's legacy makes you his 'homeboy' and more or less the same as him. You are cooking up a conspiracy theory rather than looking at the majority of his work and voting record.

Or you don't really believe any of that, but you think the Pfizer job is unforgivable. If that's the case, you should have just opened with that. Will come back to this.

This is worth putting in capitals: ALL OF THOSE LABOUR MPS VOTED AGAINST THE WORK AND WELFARE BILL. They abstained during the second reading, because they knew, with a Tory majority, it would pass anyway, so were trying to attach a series of amendments to make the bill less damaging, and more fair. When this was defeated, as was always possible, they all voted against it at the final reading. They fact they abstained earlier made the passage of the bill no more or less likely. People who categorically claim these MPs abstained on welfare do not understand (or pretend not to understand) how laws are made: http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/welfarereformandwork.html

For a fuller explanation, please read: http://richardburden.com/2015/07/welfare-reform-and-work-bill-second-reading-why-i-abstained/

Pfizer can make political donations to whomever they please. For anything you can say about Owen, he will not have been in charge of donations made by Pfizer to Progress. This is like saying everyone who works for Wetherspoons is tainted by UKIP, because their founder is a big fan and donates. Political parties depend on donations. The Tories get them from millionaires, Labour get them more from individuals, but ultimately parties need funding. It's how Jeremy is able to make his really snazzy branding merchandise.

Where's the interview from? Would like to read the full thing. I don't really think it's worthwhile to scrutinise someone's view on Iraq when they weren't even elected or expected to make a decision. He was a private citizen, non? Iraq was not clear cut, as many MPs and members of the public were misled. You demand absolute blind moral certainty on this, and I don't think it's a crime to say 'I thought it was probably wrong, but I wasn't sure. At the time it seemed like a good idea, now it does not.'

Jeremy Corbyn is making a big issue of Owen's past, because he thinks there's political capital there. Yes, big drug companies do not always operate in a very ethical way, and they have been caught doing some dodgy shit. But the pharmaceutical industry is vital, and does a lot of good work. If people can forgive Jeremy Corbyn for supporting homeopathy, denying the Balkan genocide, appeasing the Argentinians over the Falklands, and supporting the IRA, then I think they should support Owen Smith for having had a job.

How I vote in 2020 will be determined by what happens to Labour. I don't think there'll be a split, and I don't think Jeremy will make good on his promise to replace 80% of MPs with his chums, so I do think I will vote Labour. It's a bit too early to tell. I would hate to come over all tribal and brainwashed ;-)

 

[Abertawe]

A paltry number attempted to make amendments to the bill, the rest were missing. You don't decide not to vote because you aren't gonna win, what kind of defeatist attitude is that and what example does it serve? They had a duty & moral responsibility to fight against that bill with everything they had, but alas they couldn't be arsed.

Homeopathy has it's uses, ignorant to suggest otherwise.

Going to university makes you a bit suspect and a bit Tory? Say what?

Daddy got him the job in the BBC, don't say otherwise because I know that to be the case.

Corbyn is a career politician, unlike most of em though, Corbyn has made a career defending the rights of the people.

It's like someone from weatherspoons being tainted by UKIP. Really? A low waged burger flipper is the equivalent of being a political lobbyist for a multi billion dollar pharma company? You must be extremely naive to have that viewpoint. It was a donation to a right-wing think tank btw, not Labour.

So that's a no, you won't vote for Labour, that's your right I suppose. You said earlier people think they can claim purity to the party, yes they can. We are the members and we're taking Labour back to what it should've always been. You're welcome to get involved and create a member led party that serves the people not business, of course, you're always welcome to do one and find a right wing party that may better suit your ideals also.

Why do you love political elitists so vehemently by the way? The way you go on you'd think you were the director of a multi national.

It would be brilliant if someone could prove why Corbyn is unelectable rather than repeating the line over & over & over & over & over.