The Labour Thread

[AFCB_Mark]

What evidence have you got to backup your theory that a Corbyn government would "bankrupt the country"?

Hard to say what a Corbyn government would or wouldn't do at this point, we don't know a great deal of detail about his policies, although we can make a stab at his likely ideas. Some of his likely manifesto would certainly make for some interesting financial circles to square. Buying out the rail franchisees, nationalisation of energy and certain manufacturing industry, throwing money at the NHS.

No doubt increased taxation comes into that, probably increased borrowing also. But it would be interesting to hear more specifics on how he'd raise the cash and how he'd keep that model sustainable. That's the eternal conundrum for socialist policies, when you have to flesh out all the wonderful ideas and bring them into the real world. I hope he gets the chance to make his pitch and for the country to vote on it.

 

[The Jovial Forester]

You have said on multiple occasions that I am brainwashed. You also said, and I'll try to get the spirit right rather than the exact wording, that a fairer society need not mean everyone sitting around eating equal portions of potatoes.

But you are remarkably fixed and oddly dictatorial on what you think disbars someone from being interested in fairness and equality, and capable of caring about other people. Your criteria for being 'Labour' is very restrictive. From your above point, it appears you are implying, and you are of course free to unpick this, but you quoted these things presumably for a reason:

Going to university makes you a bit suspect and a bit Tory?
Working for the BBC for 10 years is not a real job? Actually no you actually go and just say that later. Please do provide full list of 'real jobs'.
There is something inherently wrong with working in politics? Like as a special adviser? (Now, granted Jeremy's never done that, but he's certainly a career politician). Apparently praising Tony Blair's legacy makes you his 'homeboy' and more or less the same as him. You are cooking up a conspiracy theory rather than looking at the majority of his work and voting record.

Or you don't really believe any of that, but you think the Pfizer job is unforgivable. If that's the case, you should have just opened with that. Will come back to this.

This is worth putting in capitals: ALL OF THOSE LABOUR MPS VOTED AGAINST THE WORK AND WELFARE BILL. They abstained during the second reading, because they knew, with a Tory majority, it would pass anyway, so were trying to attach a series of amendments to make the bill less damaging, and more fair. When this was defeated, as was always possible, they all voted against it at the final reading. They fact they abstained earlier made the passage of the bill no more or less likely. People who categorically claim these MPs abstained on welfare do not understand (or pretend not to understand) how laws are made: http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/welfarereformandwork.html

For a fuller explanation, please read: http://richardburden.com/2015/07/welfare-reform-and-work-bill-second-reading-why-i-abstained/

Pfizer can make political donations to whomever they please. For anything you can say about Owen, he will not have been in charge of donations made by Pfizer to Progress. This is like saying everyone who works for Wetherspoons is tainted by UKIP, because their founder is a big fan and donates. Political parties depend on donations. The Tories get them from millionaires, Labour get them more from individuals, but ultimately parties need funding. It's how Jeremy is able to make his really snazzy branding merchandise.

Where's the interview from? Would like to read the full thing. I don't really think it's worthwhile to scrutinise someone's view on Iraq when they weren't even elected or expected to make a decision. He was a private citizen, non? Iraq was not clear cut, as many MPs and members of the public were misled. You demand absolute blind moral certainty on this, and I don't think it's a crime to say 'I thought it was probably wrong, but I wasn't sure. At the time it seemed like a good idea, now it does not.'

Jeremy Corbyn is making a big issue of Owen's past, because he thinks there's political capital there. Yes, big drug companies do not always operate in a very ethical way, and they have been caught doing some dodgy shit. But the pharmaceutical industry is vital, and does a lot of good work. If people can forgive Jeremy Corbyn for supporting homeopathy, denying the Balkan genocide, appeasing the Argentinians over the Falklands, and supporting the IRA, then I think they should support Owen Smith for having had a job.

How I vote in 2020 will be determined by what happens to Labour. I don't think there'll be a split, and I don't think Jeremy will make good on his promise to replace 80% of MPs with his chums, so I do think I will vote Labour. It's a bit too early to tell. I would hate to come over all tribal and brainwashed ;-)

It doesn't require a conspiracy theory to note the emergence of a political class who follow the PPE, spad, PR etc route and to understand how that tends to a different set of outlooks and material interests to the sort of candidates that used to be generated by local CLPs. A lot of them were teachers and so on so not exactly representative of their electorate but linked to them through the organisation far more organically than the current crop.
To either not see that or think it doesn't matter does suggest an idea of.what the Labour Party should be - clever technocrats as opposed to tribunes of the people (joke) - that I fundamentally disagree with. That disconnect between the base and the PLP goes a.fair way.to explaining the pass we've come to IMO

 

[FrazerLloyd]

So in 24 hours, Jeremy Corbyn has gone from a very nice man, who couldn't lead to a bully. The circus continues...

 

[TheMinsterman]

So, Angela Eagle has cancelled appearances and claimed it was on police advice.... the police have confirmed it was her own choice and not their advice. Oh and Corbyn is the arbiter of anti-Semitism (never been accusations of that before Corbyn of course), misogyny (despite Corbyn's repeating schtick about wage gaps, women only trains etc) and various other isms, oh he also doesn't condemn them. Only he does, but he doesn't condemn them enough! (Funny, heard that one before about his Brexit campaigning).

I'm quite sure Corbyn's made mistakes as leader (some excusable due to dealing with all the extra childish nonsense, others less so) but I am highly sceptical of all these people emerging to declare him the Arch-Incompetent Reincarnation of Lucifer himself.

This on top of anonymous labour sources leaking to the Independent that if they lose, they'll just keep triggering elections til Corbyn leaves.

"Democracy".

 

[Abertawe]

It's beyond pathetic. I'm already sick to the back teeth of all this nonsense I can't imagine what he's thinking of it all. The amount of shit he's taken on the chin and let slide is commendable but surely it's gotta wear thin at some point. Bully ffs. I really don't see Labour being anything ever again unless Corbyn can stick it out. I'm not sure if they're aware but the majority of people are able to see straight through this concerted PLP effort to do whatever it takes to push him over the edge, what a wonderful example they're setting to the younger generation.

 

[Max]

A paltry number attempted to make amendments to the bill, the rest were missing. You don't decide not to vote because you aren't gonna win, what kind of defeatist attitude is that and what example does it serve? They had a duty & moral responsibility to fight against that bill with everything they had, but alas they couldn't be arsed.

Homeopathy has it's uses, ignorant to suggest otherwise.

Going to university makes you a bit suspect and a bit Tory? Say what?

Daddy got him the job in the BBC, don't say otherwise because I know that to be the case.

Corbyn is a career politician, unlike most of em though, Corbyn has made a career defending the rights of the people.

It's like someone from weatherspoons being tainted by UKIP. Really? A low waged burger flipper is the equivalent of being a political lobbyist for a multi billion dollar pharma company? You must be extremely naive to have that viewpoint. It was a donation to a right-wing think tank btw, not Labour.

So that's a no, you won't vote for Labour, that's your right I suppose. You said earlier people think they can claim purity to the party, yes they can. We are the members and we're taking Labour back to what it should've always been. You're welcome to get involved and create a member led party that serves the people not business, of course, you're always welcome to do one and find a right wing party that may better suit your ideals also.

Why do you love political elitists so vehemently by the way? The way you go on you'd think you were the director of a multi national.

It would be brilliant if someone could prove why Corbyn is unelectable rather than repeating the line over & over & over & over & over.

Politicians have a lot to do. I would rather they were doing constituency work, or other work, than turning up to vote in things they were 100% going to lose in. I don't think Jeremy was involved in trying to amend the bill. He voted against it, either because a) he knew people would misunderstand the abstention issue, and him voting against would play well - this makes him a cynic and not really a great ambassador for straight-talking politics, or b) couldn't be bothered to try to actually oppose something in a practical and potentially effective way, but was happy to be against something in principle. This would be about bang on the money for him.

I am surprised you think homeopathy is valuable. For clarity though, Corbyn doesn't just believe it's a useful placebo, he believes we should fund more research into it: http://skeptical-voter.org/index.php?title=EDM_1820

To ascertain its effectiveness. This is barmy stuff and I am surprised nobody has really challenged him on it.

You listen Owen's CV including uni, and considering you were derisory about the BBC job and Pfizer, I just wondered if you also held university in disdain?

Also, Progress is not a right-wing thing tank, it is a Labour think tank. I know that Tony Benn was never involved, but nonetheless it's still full of Labour people. The Adam Smith Institute is a right-wing thinktank. The Centre for Policy Studies is right wing. Something can be on the right of the Labour Party and still be allowed.

You are either purposefully not reading the things I am saying, or you are unable to follow them. I have repeatedly set out the things I'd like to see a Labour government do, and I don't think they could be construed by anyone as serving businesses over people, or right wing, or any of your other catchphrases.

Again on the voting Labour issue. I have said, I will see. I don't tend to commit to voting for any party 4 years ahead of schedule, because it's nice to actually look at the facts before making a political allegiance. This is why Corbyn fans so often have the feel of a cult. What would actually persuade you that Jeremy Corbyn was not the right leader for Labour? It's fine if you don't think you've seen the right evidence, but literally nothing could sway you. Your belief in Corbyn is unfalsifiable: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/178/Unfalsifiability

I don't 'love political elitists'. All nuance to you is apparently null and void. You reduce everything to black and white, right wing and left wing (where only JC is allowed to be in the latter). I hate seeing the Labour Party dragged into pointless obscurity. It is becoming a protest group, a megaphone waving, opponent-intimidating, small-minded movement with Jeremy in charge. I will be voting for Owen Smith in an attempt to put us back on course of at least trying to get elected.

Re: electability, you have been provided with the polling. This is not 100%, but it's a reasonably reliable indicator. It could be 2-3% out and it is still terrible. There have also been a number of focus groups with people in swing seats, links to which I have posted earlier in this thread, where swing voters describe themselves as unimpressed with him. We could wait for him to lose a general, but this would be wasting potentially several years. Labour in the latest YouGov are now behind in London, which is astounding. With the boundary changes coming up, Labour cannot afford to be this far adrift.

You keep inviting me to leave the party. I would suggest, if Corbyn and his allies either a) are convinced they're being dragged down by the rest of the party, or b) are not interested in being elected, they could stand on their own platform at the election. It could be Jeremy Corbyn's Momentum Party, and you'd either romp to victory, free of all the mean MPs who say he's bad at his job, or you'd lose. Surely this is a win-win solution for Jeremy?

 

[Max]

Also, Len, this helps nobody:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...es-using-dark-practices-against-jeremy-corbyn

 

[.V.]

Also, Len, this helps nobody:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...es-using-dark-practices-against-jeremy-corbyn

Tin foil hat stuff.

 

[Abertawe]

Your views are well meant and based on what you believe to be rationale but I feel sorry for you, I presume you're just an ordinary peasant like the rest of us, yet you want the elite. We're never going to agree, I just hope for your sake you don't look back in years to come with regret.

Len shouldn't have said that but it is a fact Corbyn has been subject to covert surveillance over a number of years.

 

[TheMinsterman]

The simple answer is both sides will be getting abuse, some of which will the "curse of the millennials" aka Twitter abuse. Difference is Corbyn doesn't come out calling Eagle et al bullies, useless, incompetent etc. in newspapers and other "professional" forms of media. The idea he's a bully and should somehow be able to control what internet try hards do when NOBODY can possibly police that is massively laughable.

The entire situation is an absolute joke, I watched on with morbid amusement as my party self imploded at the last GE and thought that was pretty bad, this is absolutely comical.

Labour are unelectable, regardless of the leader, and that's very depressing. They've bled voters for a while, all of this sorry episode is just going to make them look more out of touch and completely disorganised, the idea they can just bin Corbyn, stick a middle ground vacccuous nodding head with a red ribbon on for the next few years and then romp to victory is quite worrying. They seem completely intent on ignoring their actual reasons for their decline and tossing all the blame on Corbyn, he has become the figurehead of their demise when the issues are much more widespread and they're only getting much bigger by all this behaviour.

 

[FrazerLloyd]

They've bled voters for a while, all of this sorry episode is just going to make them look more out of touch and completely disorganised, the idea they can just bin Corbyn, stick a middle ground vacccuous nodding head with a red ribbon on for the next few years and then romp to victory is quite worrying. They seem completely intent on ignoring their actual reasons for their decline and tossing all the blame on Corbyn, he has become the figurehead of their demise when the issues are much more widespread and they're only getting much bigger by all this behaviour.

Very well said!

 

[.V.]

Your views are well meant and based on what you believe to be rationale but I feel sorry for you, I presume you're just an ordinary peasant like the rest of us, yet you want the elite. We're never going to agree, I just hope for your sake you don't look back in years to come with regret.

Len shouldn't have said that but it is a fact Corbyn has been subject to covert surveillance over a number of years.

Opinion polls are showing a trend now, that's not irrational!

Tony Benn was a 3rd generation politician and his Dad sat in the HoL as a Viscount, sounds like he was a member of the elite to me, or is he exempt?

As it is, we're heading towards a Tory government until 2025 and that should terrify every Labour supporter. Can Smith change that? I'm not sure, but when the stakes are this high it's worth giving him the opportunity, because all polling at the moment is pointing to a slaughter.

 

[Abertawe]

Opinion polls are showing a trend now, that's not irrational!

Tony Benn was a 3rd generation politician and his Dad sat in the HoL as a Viscount, sounds like he was a member of the elite to me, or is he exempt?

As it is, we're heading towards a Tory government until 2025 and that should terrify every Labour supporter. Can Smith change that? I'm not sure, but when the stakes are this high it's worth giving him the opportunity, because all polling at the moment is pointing to a slaughter.

You can be elite and have morals you know? That's why Benn was loved, had every privilege going yet still made it his life to fight for the poor.

And nah, Corbyn (Labour) was actually polling well. That's the sole reason the coup took place.

As you mentioned Benn

What a fucking man he was.

 

[.V.]

You can be elite and have morals you know? That's why Benn was loved, had every privilege going yet still made it his life to fight for the poor.

And nah, Corbyn (Labour) was actually polling well. That's the sole reason the coup took place.

Your post indicated that you can't be elite and have morals.

Labour were ahead in the polls in April, not late June.

First poll post Brexit and pre 'coup' shows Labour behind by 3 points.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/746431066290987008

 

[TheMinsterman]

You can be elite and have morals you know? That's why Benn was loved, had every privilege going yet still made it his life to fight for the poor.

And nah, Corbyn (Labour) was actually polling well. That's the sole reason the coup took place.

As you mentioned Benn

What a fucking man he was.

Nice to see my boys pick up by 3%

 

[.V.]

Nice to see my boys pick up by 3%

And still on 9% too

 

[Modernist]

Might pick up a few labour voters too.

 

[TheMinsterman]

And still on 9% too

Liberals Live!

 

[Max]

Your views are well meant and based on what you believe to be rationale but I feel sorry for you, I presume you're just an ordinary peasant like the rest of us, yet you want the elite. We're never going to agree, I just hope for your sake you don't look back in years to come with regret.

Len shouldn't have said that but it is a fact Corbyn has been subject to covert surveillance over a number of years.

Indeed, you've nailed it, I want to have a government back that invests in public spending, raises taxes on the wealthy and tries to address household bills because I'm hopelessly in love with a rarefied elite. It all makes perfect sense. Seeing as it doesn't make any difference to you who the government is, maybe you could stand aside and let Labour be electable?

It makes no difference to you either way, because nobody will deliver your dream society that you have never explained, in which the only people allowed to hold office have taken tea with Tony Benn and only ever worked in a pit mine, in an ever spiralling political version of the Four Yorkshireman sketch.

 

[Max]

Len shouldn't have said that but it is a fact Corbyn has been subject to covert surveillance over a number of years.

I wonder if this had anything to do with his sympathy for the IRA?

 

[Ellis]

You could be a staunch right-winger but when you start calling listed terror organisations 'friend's (whatever the context) or express lenient sympathies to Irish Nationalism then MI5 will want to scope you out.

 

[Abertawe]

Indeed, you've nailed it, I want to have a government back that invests in public spending, raises taxes on the wealthy and tries to address household bills because I'm hopelessly in love with a rarefied elite. It all makes perfect sense. Seeing as it doesn't make any difference to you who the government is, maybe you could stand aside and let Labour be electable?

It makes no difference to you either way, because nobody will deliver your dream society that you have never explained, in which the only people allowed to hold office have taken tea with Tony Benn and only ever worked in a pit mine, in an ever spiralling political version of the Four Yorkshireman sketch.

Maybe, maybe not. Labour won't be electable under Smith and I don't understand why you'd want a economic right winger leading the country given the values you profess to hold dear anyway.

I don't know why you're so pompous in your put downs, paraphrasing and insinuating views that I haven't offered. My leanings are formulated from life experiences. Having been homeless and reliant on hostels to keep me dry, the system of which New Labour had control over for 13 years was nothing but a hindrance. Had it not been for my headstrong cuntishness I could've quite easily become another lost soul and not a fuck would've been given. Forgive me for getting behind a man that finally wants to help those who have nothing, not because it would win him votes, but because he genuinely cares about those without a voice. Corbyn is a candle of hope in this evil dark world, unfortunately the world is so full of evil to overcome it is gonna take a huge monumental effort but it is possible, and so long as it's possible us 'dreamers' will continue to fight for what is right.

 

[Kopper]

Corbyn represents the heart of the party. But where is it's head?

 

[.V.]

Maybe, maybe not. Labour won't be electable under Smith and I don't understand why you'd want a economic right winger leading the country given the values you profess to hold dear anyway.

I don't know why you're so pompous in your put downs, paraphrasing and insinuating views that I haven't offered. My leanings are formulated from life experiences. Having been homeless and reliant on hostels to keep me dry, the system of which New Labour had control over for 13 years was nothing but a hindrance. Had it not been for my headstrong cuntishness I could've quite easily become another lost soul and not a fuck would've been given. Forgive me for getting behind a man that finally wants to help those who have nothing, not because it would win him votes, but because he genuinely cares about those without a voice. Corbyn is a candle of hope in this evil dark world, unfortunately the world is so full of evil to overcome it is gonna take a huge monumental effort but it is possible, and so long as it's possible us 'dreamers' will continue to fight for what is right.

I have great admiration for anyone who can turn their life around when faced with great hardships, although I'm aware that word probably doesn't do what you've experienced justice. I'm writinh this with all sincerity, and I do apologise if I'm being patronising, because I'm desperately trying not to be.

Having said that, what do you think 15 years of Tory government will do to those systems? That's where we're heading under Corbyn. When the country is to the right of Corbyn, and myself I might add, then the lesser of two evils is all we can accept, until the country moves to the left. That's democracy for you.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

30+ years as a rebellious backbench MP is arse awful preparation to lead a political party, especially one as broad and fissiparous as Labour. I take stuff like that Greenwood piece with an industrial-sized vat of salt (since there's always a degree of embellishment and self-serving one-sidedness to such accounts), but her jibe that Corbyn is "not a team player, let alone a team leader" rings kinda true to me, not because I see Jez as malign or megalomaniacal but because people who spend years and years (decades in his case) doing their own thing, marching to the beat of their own drum and largely unburdened by responsibility for anyone else, tend to be utter shite at group-based activity, which is essentially what party politics is. To go from back-bencher and habitual rebel to party leader is an enormous change, one that requires the sort of rapid psychological shift that is beyond most people. So the various stories of incompetence, especially from a party management and communications PoV, are easy for me to believe. In those respects he probably is a rubbish leader.

The problem is, there's now been so much open dissent and revolt against the chap that any failure he suffers from here on – be it losing the leadership election or getting crushed by Theresa May in 2020 – is going to be blamed on centrist sabotage rather than any failures or shortcomings on his part. There is already evidence of this narrative forming. Whenever faced with strong evidence that Corbyn is not actually very good at X, the refrain is that he'd do X better if it didn't have to spend so much time fighting his own party. It's a very counterintuitive idea, I know, but it might have been better for Labour if the centrists had just left him alone for 5 years and let him lose an election on his own terms. In that instance, he could be written off as an ill-advised and demonstrably unsuccessful experiment. The botched coup (is there any party on Earth that does these worse than Labour?) has basically worsened an already intractable turf war on the British left, one that matters enormously to the people fighting it but which is seen as silly and amateurish by everyone else.

 

[.V.]

Anyone else have to look up what fissiparous means or is it just me?

I will give the Tories credit, they're ruthless when it comes to power, and certainly know how to unseat a leader.

 

[TheMinsterman]

It's a very counterintuitive idea, I know, but it might have been better for Labour if the centrists had just left him alone for 5 years and let him lose an election on his own terms. In that instance, he could be written off as an ill-advised and demonstrably unsuccessful experiment.

Nail on the head, they'd be much better suited actually letting him fail, publically, then removing him as he'd have little ground to stand on after losing an election.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Four years is a long time to essentially write off as a party though isn't it?

 

[Captain Scumbag]

^
Of course, hence me prefacing the idea with "it's a very counterintutive idea, I know".

From a Labour centrist PoV, it effectively means accepting that the party will be out power for at least nine years (four years of Corbyn, followed by five years in opposition after he loses the next General Election), so obviously the idea is a bit of an anthema. I get why it doesn't appeal to them.

Still... if Plan B is Owen Smith, they're likely to lose in 2020 anyway.

 

[Alty]

Events of the past year - many of which were in Labour's control - mean there is virtually no chance of the party winning the next election whatever they do now.

The most bizarre aspect of all this is Smith talking about there still being a possibility of the U.K. staying in the EU. Is he fucking mental? Does he want to give the North of England and Wales away like the party's already done with Scotland??