The Labour Thread

[Abertawe]

Bookmark this Maxy boy, I've a feeling you're gonna be needing it soon enough. https://www.conservatives.com/join

 

[Max]

Bookmark this Maxy boy, I've a feeling you're gonna be needing it soon enough. https://www.conservatives.com/join

You are astoundingly boring. I have been quoting actual evidence and ideas at you for ... what has it been, weeks? You have no counter-arguments. You have no ideas. You are a brainwashed and uncompromising individual. I've engaged with every actual argument you've made, and you always drop whatever your point was, because everything you say is based only in the unshakeable belief that Jeremy Corbyn is the only real Labour person, rather than any actual evidence or thinking. It's like talking to a religious fundamentalist. Or one of those poorly programmed artificial intelligent internet bots.

I have been, for years, determined to be part of a principled and electable Labour movement. You seem to exist solely to throw abuse and cheap non-arguments at anyone who disagrees with you, like a 12 year old. You sprung up with your online muck-throwing with Jeremy, and you will fade back to your ignorant conspiracy theories when he eventually departs.

Don't get me wrong. He's got some plus points, mostly about how you should conduct debate and treat people, and you can't even emulate that.

 

[Abertawe]

Much the same to you Maxy boy. When asked how an Owen Smith or any economically right leaning new lib figure could lead Labour to success you're bereft of ideas. New Labour has lost votes every election since victory in '97, only Ed reversed that trend and he was left, but not left enough. New Labour has proven to be a disaster. Carry on thinking your some sort of political commentator, it's very funny. You're the one who is seemingly fixated on one individual, I'm about a social movement that can put this country back on a path of greatness, you worship a class that you can't aspire to be a part of in your wildest dreams, and I'm the brainwashed one?

EDIT: And I don't seem to recall anyone saying capitalism doesn't have a part to play in developing medicine and medical breakthroughs. Just another example of you making stuff up to appear smarter and more enlightened than the rest of us.

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

Also there's no point in debating all the good and bad actions of Pfizer. They're a company, so they try to get the highest possible price for their product.

Most succinct definition of capitalist realism evs.

 

[Max]

Much the same to you Maxy boy. When asked how an Owen Smith or any economically right leaning new lib figure could lead Labour to success you're bereft of ideas. New Labour has lost votes every election since victory in '97, only Ed reversed that trend and he was left, but not left enough. New Labour has proven to be a disaster. Carry on thinking your some sort of political commentator, it's very funny. You're the one who is seemingly fixated on one individual, I'm about a social movement that can put this country back on a path of greatness, you worship a class that you can't aspire to be a part of in your wildest dreams, and I'm the brainwashed one?

Perhaps the internet is a needlessly dividing medium, and if we were ever to meet in real life we could coalesce around a common cause.

I would like for the opposing sides within Labour to work together. I don't think I'm a political commentator. I just try to base what I'm saying in some solid data / evidence / ideas, and you so often seem to scorn this. You can explain why I worship an elite class if you like, but I shan't hold my breath. You make a lot of assumptions, and don't know anything of my background, job, class etc.

For what it's worth, I don't think I'm bereft of ideas of how a non-Jeremy Corbyn person could lead Labour to success, but I do actually think the biggest barrier to success is Jeremy as an individual. We need to connect with the 48% Remain, which Jeremy can't do. We need to outline specific economic policies, but all I hear from Jeremy is generalisations and platitudes. It's good to oppose wrong military intervention, but I think it's morally right to sometimes intervene using the military, and I want to hear a leader speak about what the right conditions would be, rather than blanket pacificism. We need to hear specific ideas about health, which nobody is currently providing. I do feel that whenever conversations come up about some of these issues, they get shut down. If Jeremy wants to lead, I can still be convinced!

 

[Abertawe]

I'm more than confident you will be convinced given time. I can't remember a time when an opposing leader was expected to lay out a point to point manifesto 4 years prior to an election. Lest not forget the Tories got into coalition by saying "Labour caused recession" and then won a majority by uttering "strong economy" over & over whilst scare mongering about the SNP.

I just can't understand why you're not willing to at least give the strongest social movement this country has seen for an age the slightest chance. New Labour and the like had their chance and whilst achieving some decent things they on the whole failed and made many mistakes that we're suffering the consequences of today. It also wasn't Corbyn policies that lost Labour power and subsequent elections. For me it's bizarre Corbyn is labelled as unlectable but the New Labour way is electable. The electorate lost faith & trust in Labour, it's surely time to change tactics.

 

[Max]

I'm more than confident you will be convinced given time. I can't remember a time when an opposing leader was expected to lay out a point to point manifesto 4 years prior to an election. Lest not forget the Tories got into coalition by saying "Labour caused recession" and then won a majority by uttering "strong economy" over & over whilst scare mongering about the SNP.

I just can't understand why you're not willing to at least give the strongest social movement this country has seen for an age the slightest chance. New Labour and the like had their chance and whilst achieving some decent things they on the whole failed and made many mistakes that we're suffering the consequences of today. It also wasn't Corbyn policies that lost Labour power and subsequent elections. For me it's bizarre Corbyn is labelled as unlectable but the New Labour way is electable. The electorate lost faith & trust in Labour, it's surely time to change tactics.

Re: the edit to your previous post, I bring up the Pfizer thing because you linked to that DM story that was trying to make Owen Smith look bad, because Pfizer are 'bad', etc etc.

But re: this quoted post, this is something you return to a lot: that in the long fullness of time I will be convinced of your point of view. Fundamentally, we would probably agree about a lot now - that the current economic model disenfranchises people, and doesn't benefit most people. But frankly, we aren't going to have a massive socialist revolution in this country, because most people don't want it. It's important to me to actually offer people things that improve their lives, in a way that's realistic and deliverable. It sounds like you're fixated on the sort of radical change that will never happen.

The Tories lied through their teeth about Labour and spending. Labour didn't cause the economic crisis, and it was recovering before Osborne got his hands on it. Owen Smith actually pledged to spend £200 bn to counteract austerity the other day. Jeremy isn't the only person who's interested in working against what the Conservatives have done since 2010.

I don't expect Jeremy to lay out a manifesto now, but I think the general public make up their mind about a leader after a few months. People think he's unpatriotic, scruffy, bad at leadership, disorganised and old fashioned. Most of these things don't deter me, and obviously don't deter you, but it's not the Labour membership he has to convince. He won't change his style or ideas because he's principled. But by staying he's ignoring reality. You're relying on the general public doing an about-turn and suddenly embrace him, and there's no reason this would happen.

I voted for Jeremy in the leadership election because I didn't want us to pick Cooper or Burnham, who I thought would repeat the performance of Milliband, or make the situation worse. Kendall was trying too hard to make herself favourable and thus went too far right. So I voted Corbyn, because I thought he'd take the party leftwards, and this would be good. I agreed and still do agree with a lot of his positions. I did this assuming that either a) it'd be very effective and therefore job done, or b) it would go very badly, but him being a decent chap would recognise this and STAND ASIDE for someone to take on the 2020 election, having suitably taken the Labour debate a bit to the left and steadied the ship.

I still don't think you sufficiently ever defined Blairism, or New Labour, but the whole point of New Labour was to take basic Labour ideas and make the party palatable to the swing voter. They did that, and don't make me list all the bloody great 1997-2010 Labour achievements AGAIN, but I am happy to do so. But it makes me angry - a lot of what Labour did in government was excellent, and it seems to mean nothing to you. It's worth fighting for, it's getting some of what you want done but sacrificing some things that aren't going to be popular with everyone. Politics is compromise. Life if compromise.

 

[.V.]

Latest polling.

https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/757880970674638848

 

[.V.]

Polling for the year.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/757929343783936000

 

[Abertawe]

Yeah, UKIP aren't doing great are they...

 

[.V.]

Yeah, UKIP aren't doing great are they...

They're not expected to be HM opposition, and a post Brexit drop was to be expected when they won.

 

[Abertawe]

They're not expected to be HM opposition, and a post Brexit drop was to be expected when they won.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Max, what will you do if Corbyn wins the leadership election?

 

[Abertawe]

Shoot him.

 

[Alty]

Max, what will you do if Corbyn wins the leadership election?

This is the interesting question. Do people like Max buy into Farron's project to return the Lib Dems to the 'lefties who don't like trade unions' position, do they grudgingly accept the result and stick with Labour or do they support a breakaway party?

 

[Max]

Max, what will you do if Corbyn wins the leadership election?

Stick with it, I suppose. I don't imagine the party will actually split, as this would be bad for everyone. I think as the summer wears on, the leadership election will prove quite close. I am hopeful this will act as a catalyst for the party to be able to come together afterwards, regardless of the result.

 

[Abertawe]

"Smash Theresa May back on her heals"

What an unfortunate turn of phrase That along with his previous sayings isn't doing great things for turning around the perception he's a bit of a misogynist. I don't believe he is by the way, I do think it gives an indication as to his unsuitability for the role though. When you're contending to be the opposition to a woman PM it would probably pays to be a bit more tactful. For a man with a grounding in PR it's an incredibly poor choice of words, his response hasn't done him any favours either.

 

[Abertawe]

Brilliant column here by Clive Lewis. The guy always impresses me, looks to have the makings of a future leader. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ur-party-leader-crisis?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

I rarely venture into the politics forum because I don't really value the opinions of anyone on here and political discourse is generally an overrated pastime. However I was reading about the man who isn't Corbyn and how he wants to introduce a wealth tax and I have to say that this is a tremendously exciting idea. I'd vote for it.

 

[sl1k]

I rarely venture into the politics forum because I don't really value the opinions of anyone on here and political discourse is generally an overrated pastime. However I was reading about the man who isn't Corbyn and how he wants to introduce a wealth tax and I have to say that this is a tremendously exciting idea. I'd vote for it.

No one gives a shit, mate.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

I didn't think they did.

 

[Abertawe]

Oxford movement

 

[.V.]

No one doubts his ability to rally Labour members, it's the general public he can't.

 

[Abertawe]

No one doubts his ability to rally Labour members, it's the general public he can't.

Neither of us know that. It was a McDonnell gig by the way, don't think Corbyn was even there.

 

[Max]

Neither of us know that. It was a McDonnell gig by the way, don't think Corbyn was even there.

http://labourlist.org/2016/07/public-prefer-smith-to-corbyn-for-prime-minister-new-poll-shows/

Corbyn is undoubtedly still in a stronger position for the leadership election, but I have been impressed that Smith has announced more policies in the last 10 days than Jeremy has managed to discuss in 10 months.

• Reintroducing Wages Councils
• Abolition of zero hours contracts
• Scrapping trade union reforms
• Abolish the Department for Work and Pensions, replacing it with a Ministry of Labour
• Build 1.5 million homes over five years
• Reverse cuts to capital gains tax and inheritance tax
• No more cuts to corporation tax
• Better rights for agency workers
• Workers to be placed on company remuneration committees
• Wealth tax

Now you can say some of these ideas are too ambitious or too vague but he's injecting a massive amount of energy and a shedload new, relatively specific ideas that I've not seen from Jeremy Corbyn.

 

[.V.]

http://www.newstatesman.com/2016/07/jeremy-corbyn-and-paranoid-style

 

[Abertawe]

For shit journalism I prefer this https://www.theguardian.com/fashion...h-lauren-jacket-stylewatch?CMP=share_btn_link

 

[Abertawe]

York movement

360 degree pic https://www.facebook.com/everything...151002554613/1041706482565727/?type=3&theater

 

[.V.]

No one disputes his ability to get Labour Party members to vote for him, but he fails when it comes to the general population.

 

[Abertawe]

Déjà vu.

I'll give you the heads up when there's a Bristol rally mate, will be an absolutely huge turnout, them Bristolians love real politics.