The Labour Thread

[Richard Cranium]

That twat was doing a march in Mansfield on a Saturday and was on stage talking bollocks to a crowd of about 13. At least it's not just the football team our town don't bother turning out for.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Our Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell under a communism and Syrian (pro Assad) flag yesterday at Trafalgar Square.

Dunno what the scandal is there. CPGB-ML* are not exactly fans of Corbyn or McDonnell. Here's a pretty damning take on the front page of their website Proletarian Online.

[Even] with the best will in the world, and ... with the nicest of leaders in charge, Labour is incapable of fixing capitalism’s contradictions. Even if he can retain his position at the head of the party, Corbyn will not be able to change that simple fact.

Even supposing it were possible to transform the Labour party, it is not possible to turn a capitalist democracy into a workers’ one by simply changing those who run it. In capitalist countries, prime ministers serve the ruling class, not the people.

No PM in a time of crisis can resist the ruling class’s need to implement austerity and wage war if they want to keep the job. Corbyn would be left trying to reconcile the anti-war and anti-austerity feelings of the masses with the capitalists’ need to wage imperialist wars and effect cuts and privatisations.

Let those who believe Mr Corbyn can win the battle against British capital without threatening the foundations of the capitalist system do their best. For our part, we would be happy to see JC elected PM, since that would be the surest way to disillusion the millions who are pinning their hopes on such an outcome.

Meanwhile, our party will continue to do everything in its power to win workers over to the struggle for socialism.

* The Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist Leninist) are not to be confused with the Communist Party of Britain which is largely Eurocommunist and has endorsed Corbyn (as they did IIRC with Miliband). CPGB-ML are a non-revisionist (i.e. Stalinist) party, formed from a dispute in the Socialist Labour Party over whether to support North Korea.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

No, YOUR taxonomies of the ultra-left are boring and irrelevant.

 

[mowgli]

Jesus wept did anyone listen to Diane Abbot on LBC this morning? The woman is deluded

She must be The Tories favourite shadow minister as every time she opens her mouth she loses Labour more votes And Corbyn defending her car crash interview makes things worse for Labour. I'm no Tory but i could never vote for a party with Abbott in their ranks who has a massive chip on her shoulder regarding white men born in this country who voted for Brexit that she has to claim we are all racist.

 

[Techno Natch]

For some clarity

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-sense?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[JaseTheVillain]

Every time it looks like the Tories have made a monumental fuck up, Labour seem to follow it with one of their own.

 

[Blitzballer]

LOL even the BBC merking Abbott . Couldn't make this shit up

 

[Jockney]

She must be The Tories favourite shadow minister as every time she opens her mouth she loses Labour more votes And Corbyn defending her car crash interview makes things worse for Labour. I'm no Tory but i could never vote for a party with Abbott in their ranks who has a massive chip on her shoulder regarding white men born in this country who voted for Brexit that she has to claim we are all racist.

She must be The Tories favourite shadow minister as every time she opens her mouth she loses Labour more votes And Corbyn defending her car crash interview makes things worse for Labour. I'm no Tory but i could never vote for a party with Abbott in their ranks who has a massive chip on her shoulder regarding white men born in this country who voted for Brexit that she has to claim we are all racist.

It's your vote innit, but if you're gonna put your whiteness and masculinity in the way of potentially improving your lot then that is sad. Not just in the pathetic way, genuinely quite tragic mate.

 

[johnnytodd]

Labour getting spanked again, this left ideology needs putting to bed once and for all.

pmsl

 

[.V.]

I'm no centrist but he makes some good points.

https://garybainbridge.com/2017/05/05/i-told-you-so-are-you-going-to-listen-to-me-now-spoiler-no/

 

[JaseTheVillain]

I'm no centrist but he makes some good points.

https://garybainbridge.com/2017/05/05/i-told-you-so-are-you-going-to-listen-to-me-now-spoiler-no/

Likewise, but yes, he does.

 

[Jockney]

The whole premise implicit in his argument is that there was a competent candidate standing in opposition to Corbyn in 2015. The closest was Burnham, who flip-flopped so frequently that no-one seemed to know what he stood for.

You can argue for an approximately centrist "broad coalition" but if you're going to play that game then you have to present strongly. That requires adapting dynamically to new situations, taking strong positions on certain issues (eg. not having your party's caretaker advocate for abstention on a hugely divisive issue like the welfare bill), rather than just rotating personnel and hoping that people will forget.

 

[Aber gas]

Rhodri Morgan has sadly died.
Massive figure in the Labour Party and one of the leading figures in the fight for devolution.
A sad day.
RIP.

 

[Aber gas]

Labour will never win being led by someone from the hard left like Corbyn. The best option would be to go for a soft left leader like Burnham.

Lmfao

 

[Pliny Harris]

Jeremy Corbyn standing for Labour leader now. All the best to the big man.

Sigh!

 

[Aber gas]

Ed shifted Labour slightly more to the left (correct me if I'm wrong) and lost miserably.

Would strike me as odd if the lesson Labour learnt from their defeat is that they have to go further to the left...

Lol

 

[Aber gas]

Elect Corbyn, I hope he sinks the entire party. If Labour want to be relevant they should avoid him like the plague, the problem is the other candidates are so uninspiring. Kendell's tried to provide some pragmatism but she's dared to step outside the Labour groupthink and your only allowed to do that when the party is in a dreadful state which it hasn't quite reached that. Expect centrist Chuka Ummuna to be leader in 2020 after a 1983 style general election election. Liz is intelligent enough to know that the centre is where most floating voters are instinctively drawn.

Despite many on here believing the left has defected from Labour I'd suggest otherwise. The party has certainly lost me in the last 8 years due to the extreme left fringe of the party.

Lmfao

 

[Aber gas]

We've got a guy like that in France. He's an idiot. Just like Tsipras he'll be popular but ultimately fail in whatever endeavour he takes on.

Ha

 

[Aber gas]

I do think it pretty disasterous for the party. He'll be ripped to shreds by the press + tories - he's never been on the front bench, shadow or anything. It will be a real test. I'm just not sure that the answer against the Tories is to go further left [except for scotland] but it won't attract the people who we need to attract to win an election. I fear that the party will end up just talking to itself and associated unions congratulating itself, whilst it's ignored by the rest of the country. Hope not tho.

Loool

 

[SUTSS]

Lmfao

He still didn't win though. It's worth remembering that even though it's fantastic to see the Conservatives getting the just desserts for their arrogance. But fair play to him, I don't know where it came from but the Labour campaign has been very competent and very effective. I'm not even sure if they were aware of this until late on either.

 

[Benji]

It'll be interesting next time. Calling him a terrorist doesn't seem to have worked, and they've used up all their ammunition on him in this campaign.

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

If Labour fully get behind Corbyn, they will get a majority in 2022.

 

[.V.]

Lmfao

Lol

Lmfao

Ha

Loool

I thought you weren't going to be a c***!

 

[Aber gas]

I thought you weren't going to be a c***!

Yes, sorry mate.

 

[Abertawe]

Gonna take my time and pick the best of Max

 

[Abertawe]

Got bored in the end. Made me remember what an utter twat Max is though. A complete and utter prick. Likes of V are good eggs who were just confused, Max is a dickhead.

Shout out Aber G, Pliny Harris, Jovial Forester, Minsterman & even the paranoid one made some excellent points at the time. Few more who I've forgotten did well too.

Obviously it has been a disaster, but I would have enjoyed being able to see Corbyn lead the Labour Party, rather than having to babysit a bunch of sore losers who are in denial that the Labour membership does not reflect their views, and have been consistently briefing against Corbyn from Day 1. The problem is there has been a lot that has been in Jeremy's control, and he still continues to miss open goals left, right and centre.

The next leader cannot be of his wing of the party (just wasting time having the same arguments), so that rules out McDonnell, Trickett and Cat Smith.

The basis of the coup is that there is probably a general election coming up, and Labour do not have a chance of winning it if things stay as they are. Europe may be the trigger and the main reason being cited in some of the resignation letters, but had Remain won, Jeremy would likely have been given more time. I think it's worth remembering that all the people currently resigning are the ones who have been trying to make it work with Jeremy for a year, not the ones who flounced off and refused to be involved.

Those victories you have mentioned are all good news and impressive, but I don't think Liverpool was ever going to not produce a Labour mayor, and I don't think Corbyn was relevant in the London election. The government is in massive chaos. Even unsuccessful past leaders like Foot, Miliband etc. have enjoyed more popularity with the public than Corbyn. Labour needs to be 10 points ahead in the polls, not 'just about level on a good day'. Do you honestly think he's going to pull out a massive upswing in support in the coming weeks? Why? Where from?

The number one job of the Labour leader is to make Labour electable. Corbyn's current approval rating (when polled on the general public) is about -22. For context, after the same amount of time as leader, Kinnock was about neutral, and Miliband was -8. Whether or not you think the reporting on Corbyn has been right, he needs to be more popular.

I think honestly even his supporters know he's not up to it: http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016...don-t-think-jeremy-corbyn-can-win-but-they-st

Time after time, if you ask voters, they will tell you, they don't trust him: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-the-issues-that-really-matter-10505992.html

And like or not, Labour needs to win more voters over, not just convince Corbyn fans.

Obvious potential Labour voters just do not rate him: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...eone-who-got-lost-from-the-tour-a7019811.html

I never thought anyone could win Scotland back quickly, but Labour are actively going backwards in Scotland. Holding steady in Wales in the polls, but I don't think Corbyn is winning back any swing voters who voted Tory in 2015, or any of the Northern UKIP voters who have always voted Labour in the past.

You knew Corbyn was Remain (technically), and so did I. But we were apparently in the minority. It has now emerged that he refused to send anyone to the weekly Stronger In meetings, cancelled campaign events for the EU referendum, and won't even clarify if he voted to Remain. If he's a Eurosceptic, that's fine, but I am fed up of hearing 'Straight Talking, Honest Politics' from Corbyn fans.

It has been nine months, rather than six. You're right, some people have always been against him, but we don't have 3-4 years. If there is a general election, he cannot win, and this can't be allowed to continue. Labour never sack their leaders, they just let them go on and on (Foot, Miliband, Kinnock) regardless of what the facts are saying. There is no point in being sentimental about this. Doing 'no worse than Ed Miliband' is not something to aspire to. We need someone who is ambitious to win a general election.

It's not about lacking principles. It's about using some common sense. If Jeremy Corbyn's main tactics are to think it's beneath him to attack the government, then that's not OK. I don't care if he doesn't sing the national anthem - I really don't - but you have to have the political nous to know that it will be a story if you don't. Why bleat on about the media being mean to you if you can easily prevent it? His U-turn on shoot-to-kill policy, explaining how we need to have negotiations about the Falklands - his priorities on issues that matter to people are wrong.

You can be a loveable rogue of a left-wing MP who doesn't care about public opinion. Or you can lead a credible opposition to the government. You can't do both, and Lord love him, he really has tried.

I'm so glad you asked.

Exhibit A: Opposition leaderdership ratings after 10 mths:
Foot - 32
Kinnock -7
Smith +1
Blair +29
Hague -16
IDS - 9
Howard -15
Cameron -1
Ed M -7
Corbyn -41

Exhibit B: His popularity AMONG LABOUR MEMBERS is now -3%

Exhibit C: 70% of Union members don't think he can win a general election.

I have always provided you evidence. You have always ignored it.

My argument has always been that Corbyn is unelectable.

Then you asked for evidence.

Now I have shown you evidence that Labour members and trade union members don't think he's electable. They're the core. You need them, and then you need much more after that. Are they lying? Is it a big conspiracy?

So, we appear to be at an impasse, as you have consistently ignored any evidence put your way. Let's try it the other way around. Show me any evidence you can muster that Corbyn will do better in 2020 than Ed Miliband did in 2015.

Please answer any of my arguments.

Jeremy Corbyn has never been shown to be popular.

I have provided, repeatedly and over again, evidence he is not popular and unlikely to win.

The best counter-argument you have is that across the Atlantic, in a very different country, someone who is actually charismatic came back from 3% down to win a general election.

A lot of Jeremy Corbyn supporters are in denial but you really take the biscuit. You are a grand master of total deflection. I try always to answer your arguments directly, and you just pivot away and focus on another non-argument.

The fact that a lot of his supporters are hugely unpleasant people is just an extra facet to the argument of why he is bad for the party. Apart from, y'know, reducing a great party of government to a student union debating society.

I'll no longer be discussing the issue with you, time will be the judge. I'll end this inane back & forth with one last comment, I pity you.

That's fine. I have persistently given you the opportunity to explain your views using evidence, and you have repeatedly declined. I do hope you take comfort in your blind faith and political purity as you continue to thrash against reality in your tinfoil hat.

Thanks .V.

I'm sure various people will tell me I'm secretly a Tory.

Various people will insist this is what I want.

It isn't. It's reality. Jeremy Corbyn is not taken seriously by the electorate. Leaders of the opposition are not the same as prime ministers. They do not get the opportunity to persuade people back to their side. People's minds are made up.

He has to go. It is the single most important thing in ensuring there is a left-wing British electable alternative to the Conservative Party. Staying at this point would be monumentally selfish and stupid.

^^ That Max post is outstanding IMVHO. I have never really subscribed to that 'Corbyn is unelectable' thing but there has been a recent deluge of stories exposing his basic incompetence. I wouldn't pay any attention but they're coming from people who were on his side! I mostly like his policies, but it's abundantly clear that he is not a very good leader of the opposition. If members vote for him again then it's a fucking disaster, especially as the rebel MPs aren't just going to 'sit down and shut up' (as one of them put it succinctly to their leader a couple of weeks ago). We can't afford for Labour to be tearing itself apart over the next four years. Now, more than ever, we need them to be holding the government properly to account.

 

[Abertawe]

Abertawe, I really hope all those people had a nice day out. I don't think it's a good idea for the leader of the opposition to primarily speak to those who already agree with him, to the detriment of speaking to the country at large.

Interesting piece out today from former Corbyn-backer Owen Jones: https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/que...orters-need-to-answer-b3e82ace7ed3#.shsvx7dhg

Which is very long, but he raises 8 questions which need to be addressed. To summarise:

1. How can the polling be turned around?
2. What's the vision for the party?
3. How are the policies currently significantly different from the last general election?
4. What's the media strategy?
5. What's the plan to win over anyone aged 44+?
6. What's the strategy to win Scotland?
7. What's the strategy to win over Conservative voters?
8. How are we going to deal with people's concerns on immigration?

I don't expect any individual to be able to put together good answers to all of those issues, but it would be nice to hear Corbyn and his supporters talk about, well, any of these issues.

Not quite sure what you mean. People who earn more pay more tax, and this is generally understood. Also applies to the NHS. I don't really follow your point on 'every legal high available' and think you're chasing some weird straw man on this.


Or 'polling of the general public', as it is otherwise known. What is nonsensical is the theory that because Corbyn can get his supporters out to a rally, that he is a good leader of the opposition. Harry Potter fans and the English Defence League can also rally supporters to a public place; it doesn't make them a good opposition to the government.

I have never seen you accept one criticism of Corbyn, ever. You don't support him, you idolize him. I'm not sure, after all your posts, where you get your evidence that he's suddenly about to win over the electorate, who will tell you flatly, in poll after poll, that they aren't going to vote for JC.

The problem is that he's not even making any effort to win over members of the Labour party that don't agree with him. His control of the party is not absolute. He appears to be trying to build up Momentum and his followers into a movement, but to what end it is genuinely not apparent.

It might as well be his general election strategy, because those in Labour who are unconvinced by him are unconvinced because we don't think he can talk to the general public. He's politically tone deaf and determined to celebrate his own popularity with his current supporters. He's whipping up his supporters to undertake a future war against the PLP, and to further division within the party.

The whole 'malcontents in the PLP' thing is in fact disingenuous. To indulge a thought experiment: let's say David Cameron, while PM, lost the support of 4/5 of his MPs and had nearly his entire shadow cabinet resign. He then wouldn't budge, because he had a mandate, he'd been elected (in a general election, in this case). This argument would not wash. He would resign, and his complaining about the circumstances that led to this situation would rightly garner no sympathy. Whether or not things are your fault as a leader, they are your responsibility, and Jeremy Corbyn fails to understand this.


Firstly, there's pages of stuff on this thread you've chosen to ignore because you don't have any answer, so let's not pull at that thread, eh?

Also, I don't think anyone is guaranteed of delivering a Labour victory in 2020. I think anyone would, at present, fail. I think Jeremy Corbyn will lead to a split that will destroy the party. You won't care, because you'll have 'won'. Jeremy won't care, because he'll have 'won'. But the long term consequences will be disastrous.

Labour are polling disastrously, are entirely undivided and are a shambles at the moment. Things could literally not be any worse for the party, so Jeremy has to go before any improvement can be made whatsoever.

 

[Abertawe]

Don't give up the day job son.

 

[Aber gas]

He's had a mare there tbqpfh

 

[Aber gas]

Still about 1000 posts to go through. Sorry @V