The Labour Thread

[ThisTinpotLeague]

..

Pretty basic economics to pay down your debt in a boom though innit.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Pretty basic economics to pay down your debt in a boom though innit.

Not really. Spending drives growth. Growth permits spending. "Paying down your debts" means taking money out of the economy and putting a handbrake on growth. While an economy is growing at a rate roughly consistent with long-run growth, paying down debt is a really dumb thing to do. It's an even dumber thing to do in a stagnant or shrinking economy.

There are arguments for doing so - growth - and the accumulation of capital can only happen through the exploitation of the working classes and of the natural world and we should be critiquing and opposing anything that is conditional on constant growth (as both Labourism and Conservatism are).

You've changed dude.

I get my anarchy license back next week, so hopefully I'll be able to put this embarrassing episode behind me.

 

[Aber gas]

FAO Aber gas

I was reminded of this earlier and I thought you might enjoy it.

Don’t tell me you weren’t warned about Corbyn
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...y-corbyn-labour-threat-party-election-support

Ha, yes I've a seen a few of these being brought up.
https://twitter.com/historyinflicks/status/873242911420407808
https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/873932055205249024
https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/873573602171514881
Personally I think people should stay classy and not bring up stuff wrong people said in the past. Only a low expectation c*** would do that.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Personally I think people should stay classy and not bring up stuff wrong people said in the past. Only a low expectation c*** would do that.

Indeed.

My main beef, FWIW, was with you mocking people for having once expressed scepticsm about Corbyn's electability a mere 24 hours after he, err, lost an election.

It's a bit like Arsenal finishing 2nd in the Premier League (3 points behind Chelsea, let's say) and Smat thinking that was the perfect time to mock everyone who had once posted something like "Arsenal won't win the title again under Wenger".

Also, I do think mocking someone (with justification or not) the day after they congratulated you on your efforts and achievements is a bit of c*** thing to do. But hey... politics often brings out the worst in us.

 

[Abertawe]

Indeed.

My main beef, FWIW, was with you mocking people for having once expressed scepticsm about Corbyn's electability a mere 24 hours after he, err, lost an election.

It's a bit like Arsenal finishing 2nd in the Premier League (3 points behind Chelsea, let's say) and Smat thinking that was the perfect time to mock everyone who had once posted something like "Arsenal won't win the title again under Wenger".

Also, I do think mocking someone (with justification or not) the day after they congratulated you on your efforts and achievements is a bit of c*** thing to do. But hey... politics often brings out the worst in us.

You what mate. Labour quote clearly won.

Tories have been ruined. Lib Dems have been wiped out. SNP have lost their only purpose. Establishment propaganda is now a source of mockery. Blairite plp forces have been confined to history. The accepted political rule book has been ripped up. The rights want for a hard brexit is now just a pipedream.

The next majority government will be Labour. Your clan can attempt to cling onto power as much as they'd like it's only going to cause them more damage with each passing day.

It's just a matter of process now. You know it, I know it, we all know it.

 

[Jockney]

Politics as history rather than as a fulfillment of destiny works for Labour as well as the Conservatives. All for confidence but this isn't a sure thing. The future looks bright but there is still work to be done.

On that note, as of yesterday I am now officially a member of the Labour Party. A decision made in part because of the Momentum ruling on mandatory membership from the start of July, but mostly because -well- fuck it: we have nothing to lose but a Tory gov; we have a country to win.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Now that Jeremy Corbyn's position is relatively secure would be good to see Momentum seize the initiative and push him leftwards rather than simply defending his leadership.

Would be really nice (and, I think, achievable) to get ending detention onto the Labour Party platform. If what people say about Corbyn is true, it'll be pushing an open door, and if not, it's better to know sooner rather than later.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

You what mate. Labour quite clearly won. Tories have been ruined.

The history books will record Labour finishing 2nd. The Tories are in a dire position, but at present they are still in government. Perhaps "post truth politics" is a thing after all.

Okay, let's be serious. There are many good reasons for thinking Labour will win the next general election. Things can change very quickly in politics (as Cult of Corbyn devotees should understand better than most), but at present things are looking very good for them. Perhaps some Tories are in denial about that. I’m not one of them. I’ve actually written at length about how significant this result is for Labour.

The hope was that we’d win by 50-60 seats, Jez would refuse to budge and the Labour Party would spend the next few years kicking lumps out of each other while we got on with Brexit. Obviously this evil master plan has gone completely tits up. It’s indicative of how unpredictable and fascinating our politics is that a snap election can completely revive one party and completely fuck another. If Corbyn had lost badly and refused to move, there might have been a civil war in the Labour Party and an electorally disastrous schism that would kept the Tories in power for ages.

If…

But, yeah, chances are you and Aber gas will get your moment of triumph. It might happen before the end of this year for all I know. It’s a shame he couldn’t wait for the moment of victory before being a complete twunt about it, but hey… As I’ve said before, politics brings out the worst in us. That includes me. Dumb of me to overreact to it.

Shalom.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Now that Jeremy Corbyn's position is relatively secure would be good to see Momentum seize the initiative and push him leftwards rather than simply defending his leadership.

An internal power struggle would be fantastic right about now. Thanks.

 

[Laker]

OK, put on your radiation suits as I'm about to defend New Labour (traded in my anarchy card last week, so may as well get my money's worth until they let me have it back).

Running a budget deficit isn't a bad thing at all. A simple equation is that the more a government spends, the more it puts into the private sector and stimulates growth. Most developed economies basically always post a deficit because it's the responsible thing to do. This is from Bloomberg:



After ten years of New Labour spending, public debt as a proportion of GDP was lower than when they took over. They'd run a deficit in all but three of those years.

You can see from that graph that debt under new labour (as a percentage of GDP) stayed pretty constant. When the credit crunch hit, we borrowed to bail out the banks, a recession caused tax revenues to fall and the deficit increased dramatically.

Under the coalition, during austerity, debt as a percentage of GDP kept increasing - in part due to Osborne's failure to generate anything other than stagnant growth during his six years in charge. Ironically, it was only when the Tories abandoned Austerity that the situation has stabilised (with debt at about 90% of GDP).

It's not legitimate to say that Labour under Blair and Brown overspent. They only did so when such spending was necessary to avoid economic catastrophe.

You can make the case that Blair and Brown created the conditions where we were overexposed to the credit crunch - causing a financial crisis. And you'd be write to make that case. Light-touch regulation was a disaster. Thankfully no-one is proposing that we head back to those days

I like your post, it's very informative and presents a different outlook. I just think it neglects the notion of "saving for a rainy day". So even if the rest of what you say is true (and you out up a compelling argument), I can't allow New Labour to get off easily since the moment the economy stopped growing, we were straight in the shit. It's speculative economics akin to Leeds United under David O'Leary however many years ago when they were buying players prior to actually winning anything - I've borrowing against future gains (gambling essentially).

And yes the lack of regulation didn't help things and I know from working in that sector that's it's a hell of a lot tighter. Still could go further mind.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

An internal power struggle would be fantastic right about now. Thanks.

Corbyn's too nice to properly crush his enemies in a way that will stop them coming back for more.

The left needs to assert itself over the slugs who are currently crawling out from under their rocks and demonstrate just who is in charge of the party now. Something like detention centres is a good thing to go for as no-one is really attached to them, they're genuinely horrific and they're part of Blair's poisonous legacy.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

I like your post, it's very informative and presents a different outlook. I just think it neglects the notion of "saving for a rainy day". So even if the rest of what you say is true (and you out up a compelling argument), I can't allow New Labour to get off easily since the moment the economy stopped growing, we were straight in the shit. It's speculative economics akin to Leeds United under David O'Leary however many years ago when they were buying players prior to actually winning anything - I've borrowing against future gains (gambling essentially).

And yes the lack of regulation didn't help things and I know from working in that sector that's it's a hell of a lot tighter. Still could go further mind.

I disagree. Unlike a football club, a country can make fairly accurate long-run predictions about future growth - over ten, twenty, thirty years - and run a structural deficit on the basis that we can be sure the long-run prediction will come true - even if you're wrong about your gambles in the short term.

Because governments can borrow very cheaply; they - unlike football clubs, are low-risk debtors - a crisis in the short or medium term can be ridden out without needing cash reserves. Although our debt has nearly doubled in the last ten years there's no indication that that it is unmanagable - we can cope for now, and in ten years, the growth picture will likely be rosier and we can bring it back down a bit (public debt has been much, much higher for lots of the twentieth century).

Austerity largely failed to eradicate the deficit and increased overall debt markedly - suggesting it was embarked on for political rather than economic reasons. But equally, the country isn't in crisis because national debt is double what it was in 2007.

The recession of 2008 was caused by a lack of available credit - i.e. banks were not lending to people - rather than central government budget deficits - and there was very little need for the Tories to take the emergency action they claimed they needed.

I would recommend this podcast as a really good explainer of what caused the crash and why it happened.

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/355/the-giant-pool-of-money
https://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/355/transcript

 

[TheMinsterman]

I disagree. Unlike a football club, a country can make fairly accurate long-run predictions about future growth.

Lies, you don't know if we'll still be in it after the first leg in Brussels.

 

[Jockney]

Are the boundary changes still likely to go ahead? We need mandatory reselection now more than ever.

 

[smat]

It's a bit like Arsenal finishing 2nd in the Premier League (3 points behind Chelsea, let's say) and Smat thinking that was the perfect time to mock everyone who had once posted something like "Arsenal won't win the title again under Wenger".

well if spurs fans can pretend 2nd is good

 

[Stringy]

I would recommend this podcast as a really good explainer of what caused the crash and why it happened.

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/355/the-giant-pool-of-money
https://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/355/transcript

Seems harsh to blame any of the financial crisis on Labour really. Sure, you could argue that they should have the put something in place to prevent speculation but by the time they realised it was probably too late to stop it. Also, it seems odd to me that government would be expected to meddle in private finance.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Not sure about some of the triumphalism in here to be honest. A lot of Corbyn's detractors in this thread had good reason to doubt whether he could be an electoral force. I think the likes of V and Max made some quite pertinent points in a perfectly reasonably fashion and it was clear to me that they, among others, were chiefly concerned with having an effective left or centre-left opposition capable of unseating the Tories. We're all on the same side, ultimately...well, perhaps not all of us. But those of a more right-wing persuasion, like the Captain, have been positive towards Corbyn and more magnanimous than most of us would likely be (very much include myself in that) if the boot were on the other foot. The observation that Labour still fell short despite a wretched Tory campaign is a reasonable one.

Anyway, enough negativity! It's clear that the result, in the context of everything that's happened in the past couple of years, was a great result for Labour. I'm thrilled for those who've always had faith in Corbyn and am personally delighted that someone with his policy platform has helped the party secure 40% of the popular vote. He's proven himself (again, it must be said) to be a very effective and dogged campaigner and, if his backbenchers stop behaving like complete shits, the future looks pretty bright

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Jonathon Pie's last couple of videos have been a particularly good/entertaining watch, you chaps of the more socialist persuasion will absolutely love them I'm sure:

 

[Jockney]

Not sure about some of the triumphalism in here to be honest. A lot of Corbyn's detractors in this thread had good reason to doubt whether he could be an electoral force. I think the likes of V and Max made some quite pertinent points in a perfectly reasonably fashion and it was clear to me that they, among others, were chiefly concerned with having an effective left or centre-left opposition capable of unseating the Tories. We're all on the same side, ultimately...well, perhaps not all of us. But those of a more right-wing persuasion, like the Captain, have been positive towards Corbyn and more magnanimous than most of us would likely be (very much include myself in that) if the boot were on the other foot. The observation that Labour still fell short despite a wretched Tory campaign is a reasonable one.

Anyway, enough negativity! It's clear that the result, in the context of everything that's happened in the past couple of years, was a great result for Labour. I'm thrilled for those who've always had faith in Corbyn and am personally delighted that someone with his policy platform has helped the party secure 40% of the popular vote. He's proven himself (again, it must be said) to be a very effective and dogged campaigner and, if his backbenches stop behaving like complete shits, the future looks pretty bright

I think Aber was just having his Norwegian football commentator moment. Personally, I took more joy in laughing at the likes of Dan Hodges, Nick Cohen and John McTernan on Twitter. I can't blame people too much for swallowing their lies. I think even the most ardent Corbyn supporter had their odd moment of public despair.

 

[Indian Dan]

I'd imagine the majority on here didn't live through the last socialist government - not Blair obviously - when Britain was the 'sick man of Europe' with strikes aplenty, unefficient and hugely loss making nationalised industries producing shoddy goods and services.

If it really was the young vote that produced the present election result they are going to be massively disappointed when all the promised sweeties fail to materialise.

 

[smat]

I'd imagine the majority on here didn't live through the last socialist government - not Blair obviously - when Britain was the 'sick man of Europe' with strikes aplenty, unefficient and hugely loss making nationalised industries producing shoddy goods and services.

If it really was the young vote that produced the present election result they are going to be massively disappointed when all the promised sweeties fail to materialise.

This "sweeties" and "giveaways" thing is a bit rich coming from a 98-year-old who was successfully bribed by David Cameron and George Osborne for five years.

 

[Indian Dan]

Personally, I'd be better off under Labour IF they made good on their promises. My problem with voting for them is I know they will absolutely wreck the economy with their hair-brained policies. We've done the nationalised industries things decades ago and what a disaster that was.

And if anyone is gullible enough to think they can pay for all their sweeties without hiking taxes for everyone then, frankly, people who voted for then will get what they deserve.

 

[Benji]

The railways should be publicly owned, I don't care if they sold dodgy bacon sarnies 20 years ago.

 

[Indian Dan]

Fuck all to with dodgy sarnies - the NUR were forever bringing them to a standstill with strikes.

And what about all the ordinary people whose pensions, in part, depend on dividends and shares in the privately owned industries Labour want to take back into public ownership

 

[Techno Natch]

Fuck all to with dodgy sarnies - the NUR were forever bringing them to a standstill with strikes.

And what about all the ordinary people whose pensions, in part, depend on dividends and shares in the privately owned industries Labour want to take back into public ownership

All young people can remember are constant cancellations on the southern line and unaffordable trains.

Ordinary young people can't even think about a pension after they've paid their rent, and any savings get swallowed up when they have a few weeks of no work on their zero hour contract.

 

[Jockney]

Anyone who lived in London during the 00s knows how fucking ridiculously inefficient and ultimately disastrous the PPP agreement was for the underground developments during that decade. Millions wasted, line construction reaching white elephant proportions; it was like Athens in the late-90s. Similarly, in an era where national security has become a major issue -- in a city where 5m people use the underground every day -- the LUL cannot even provide adequate training for severe security threats; solution to this problem? Cut nearly 1000 staff, leaving stations almost completely unmanned. If you're a TFL worker who feels unsafe working in a skeleton team dealing with tens of the thousands of passengers a day? We'll give you a fake name badge so passengers can't identify you, but otherwise get fucked.

The RMT has vociferously opposed all of these practices. Their demands have been uniformly positive and for the good of their members and passengers. How far backwards have we gone that even basic union demands about safety and security can be painted as the worst excesses of social democracy. It's outrageous.

 

[Indian Dan]

All young people can remember are constant cancellations on the southern line and unaffordable trains.

Ordinary young people can't even think about a pension after they've paid their rent, and any savings get swallowed up when they have a few weeks of no work on their zero hour contract.

ALL young people? And you honestly think a Labour government will slash prices, increase services and run a industry with no cancellations? Chuck in the inevitable strikes as unions flex their new found muscle with a compliant government to increase wages - that'll improve things.

All us oldies can remember is the dead unable to be buried, rubbish stockpiling on the street uncollected due to strikes and being taxed like fuck. Makes no odds to me these days, but if that's what you want you're welcome to it

 

[Jockney]

Jonathon Pie's last couple of videos have been a particularly good/entertaining watch, you chaps of the more socialist persuasion will absolutely love them I'm sure:

A very, very useful idiot in this campaign.

 

[smat]

Jonathon Pie's last couple of videos have been a particularly good/entertaining watch, you chaps of the more socialist persuasion will absolutely love them I'm sure

and they say the right is out of touch!

 

[Aber gas]

And you honestly think a Labour government will slash prices, increase services and run a industry with no cancellations?

Yes.