the Migrant Crisis

[Aber gas]

Even if only a minority of refugees will commit these crimes it is still perfectly reasonable to say that we should not admit any. We should not facilitate any number of people, big or small, settling in our country when their morals and ways of life are so vastly at odds with ours. We should instead focus all our aid efforts on Lebanon, on Syria, on Iraq. Rape apologism is saying that we should accept sexual assaults on our civilians because only a few of the migrants do it and the rest of them are friendly.

Rapists should be punished whoever they are but to argue that we shouldn't help because some of these people are wrong 'uns is ridiculous. What about the vast majority who are innocent and need our help? The poorest condemned by the actions of the few. It's not reall about avoiding crime though is it? These incidents are manna for people who don't want any refugees in Europe. Scaremongering and the moral panic are nothing new.

 

[Alty]

Rapists should be punished whoever they are but to argue that we shouldn't help because some of these people are wrong 'uns is ridiculous. What about the vast majority who are innocent and need our help? The poorest condemned by the actions of the few. It's not reall about avoiding crime though is it? These incidents are manna for people who don't want any refugees in Europe. Scaremongering and the moral panic are nothing new.

That's why the appropriate course of action is to vet people in refugee camps and take in the most vulnerable as a priority. The only qualm I have with our government is that I think we could and should take more in than we have, but broadly speaking we've dealt with this in a sensible way.

On the continent it's chaos, however. Merkel, Juncker and co have fucked up big time and they know it.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

You channelling Ebeneezer Goode, Alty? Either way, this is fucking idiotic.



Depends. If you're using it to justify alienating and marginalising Muslims, then no, it's not good (though it may be useful depending on your aims). If you're using it as a survival tactic as an LGBT person in a Muslim country (not sure I should include the T as it tends to be less of a taboo), then yeah, it's pretty easy to justify.

This stuff is really quite straightforward.

And what if you're simply indulging in a bit of justifiable stereotyping à la Ian_Wrexham? I note that you seemingly don't have to be employing a survival tactic in order to conclude that the land of Volvos, IKEA and ABBA is a "pretty racist country".

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Re Cologne - really distasteful to use what was an undeniably really horrible incident as a stick to beat refugees with but reasonable to place the open doors policy of a number of European countries under the microscope, I reckon.

 

[Aber gas]

That's why the appropriate course of action is to vet people in refugee camps and take in the most vulnerable as a priority. The only qualm I have with our government is that I think we could and should take more in than we have, but broadly speaking we've dealt with this in a sensible way.

On the continent it's chaos, however. Merkel, Juncker and co have fucked up big time and they know it.

It was a fluid and emergency situation and people needed out of a war zone. I admire the generosity and empathy displayed by many on mainland Europe. Issues have arisen now and you're probably right that the logistics could have been handled better. This is the situation we are in now though and calls to throw out or persecute refugees due to the actions of a few criminals isn't helpful.

 

[ccfctommy]

Our government has done the correct thing by agreeing to take a certain amount (the most needy, families etc) from the official camps. We are taking more than enough IMO. You look at mainland Europe, you look at Germany. They have taken way more than they can handle and it's turning into a gutter. Cologne, Munich, have taken way more than they should have. Lunacy. No documented, total open door policy Stupid.

 

[Renegade]

Jesus Chris Bill Hicks was fucking terrible.

Yeah, he had lost his shit by that point, that isn't actually representative of his comedy.

 

[Womble98]

That's fucking fascinating mate.

Just reaffirming to the world there that you are indeed a twat.

A governments first duty is to protect its citizens. If accepting refugees is going to cause harm on a large scale which I would argue it has and will continue to do, they are duty bound not to take them in. As others have said, our efforts should be focused on ending the war in Syria, stabilising Iraq, and assisting refugees in camps in Jordan and Lebanon.

 

[G-Dragon]

Trawling the Internet for reports of rape in the hope they might further your grubby little agenda ?
Smfh.

I am not a sad person like you though. I don't need to make up stories to push agendas, like you do. Maybe you think these kind of reports need to be hidden from the public?

Can we not admit that shit things will happen because we will clash but refugees should still be allowed in (better regulated and more structured than Germanys ideas imo)

Apparently that makes you Islamophobic and part of some sort of secret "agenda."

 

[Aber gas]

I am not a sad person like you though. I don't need to make up stories to push agendas, like you do. Maybe you think these kind of reports need to be hidden from the public?

Apparently that makes you Islamophobic and part of some sort of secret "agenda."

Well no, because the report you highlighted had nothing to do with asylum seekers did it ? As pointed out to you by renegade. You are absolutely clueless.
And you really are a sad little man ( little bit ad hominem for fun)

 

[Aber gas]

Just reaffirming to the world there that you are indeed a twat.

A governments first duty is to protect its citizens. If accepting refugees is going to cause harm on a large scale which I would argue it has and will continue to do, they are duty bound not to take them in. As others have said, our efforts should be focused on ending the war in Syria, stabilising Iraq, and assisting refugees in camps in Jordan and Lebanon.

I disagree, I believe we have a moral duty to help the poorest by offering asylum and accepting refugees. We shouldn't be vilifying a group of people for the actions of criminals. I'm completely depressed by lack of humanity shown in this thread. Shames you tbh.
If you want to tell me to go fuck myself or call me a twat then a pm is probably appropriate or face to face if you want.

 

[SUTSS]

I agree that we should do everything we can to help these people but we surely have to address the issues that come with that as well. You can't take a large number of people from a different culture, put them in a new place and just expect them to get on with their life. There are going to be issues and these need to be addressed.

 

[Aber gas]

I agree that we should do everything we can to help these people but we surely have to address the issues that come with that as well. You can't take a large number of people from a different culture, put them in a new place and just expect them to get on with their life. There are going to be issues and these need to be addressed.

I totally agree and that is something that the European community needs to deal with quickly.Refugees need help with not only the basic human needs but with integration and cultural awareness. These are damaged, traumatised people so just dumping them and leaving them them with no support is not productive. Oh and before someone accuses me of rape apology ( not you sutss) everyone should be subject to the law.

 

[Alty]

I totally agree and that is something that the European community needs to deal with quickly.Refugees need help with not only the basic human needs but with integration and cultural awareness. These are damaged, traumatised people so just dumping them and leaving them them with no support is not productive. Oh and before someone accuses me of rape apology ( not you sutss) everyone should be subject to the law.

Yes. And it needs to start from the very basics.

One of the sadder things I heard was from a colleague who used to work for the European Commission. He spent some time dealing with the issue of Somalian asylum seekers who'd been accepted in Malta. Officials were instructed to develop a sort of integration programme which focused on pretty high level stuff like Maltese and European history and political institutions. In reality, many of these people had literally no understanding of the cultural norms they'd have to get used to and didn't know how to use flushing toilets. I don't know whether it was pure ignorance or squeamishness about appearing to talk down to people, but it really wasn't good enough.

 

[blade1889]

I wonder how similar we are, wouldn't surprise me if our entrance exam (whatever its proper name is I've forgotten) made them recite the past 10 kings/queens and avoided the important stuff. Even just testing peoples opinions with regards to their respect for women to highlight people for further courses would be a start.

 

[Aber gas]

Yes. And it needs to start from the very basics.

One of the sadder things I heard was from a colleague who used to work for the European Commission. He spent some time dealing with the issue of Somalian asylum seekers who'd been accepted in Malta. Officials were instructed to develop a sort of integration programme which focused on pretty high level stuff like Maltese and European history and political institutions. In reality, many of these people had literally no understanding of the cultural norms they'd have to get used to and didn't know how to use flushing toilets. I don't know whether it was pure ignorance or squeamishness about appearing to talk down to people, but it really wasn't good enough.

That kind of approach helps nobody. I hate pc claptrap when it gets in the way of really improving a situation. A
few people patronised and a few hurt feelings are no price for better integration and understanding.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

once again

Keep it civil, lads.

Ian,
Moderator.

 

[Womble98]

You can't run integration programs when you have open immigration which Germany has had. They have no idea who is inside the country and who isn't.

 

[Art Morte]

Refugees need help with not only the basic human needs but with integration and cultural awareness.

That's idealistic thinking that in reality doesn't produce the wanted results.

Those refugees in Europe who have been pick-pocketing and mugging people of their items, sexually harassing and even raping, do you think they haven't been aware that what they're doing is illegal?

Or let me ask it this way round: If you were a refugee and went to Middle East and you were told that "if someone steals something from you, we'll cut his hand off, because that's how we do things round here", would you be comfortable with that? Or if you're found guilty of sorcery, witchcraft or atheism, that's death penalty, "because that's how we do things round here", would you be comfortable with that and just adopt those ways?

Or say you were a homosexual and told that "round here that's forbidden and results in a death penalty". Would you turn straight just like that, because you've been "helped to integrate" and made "culturally aware"?

Or the worst case scenario, say you were a woman refugee from Europe. "By the way, if you get raped round here, it's you who will be sentenced to prison for having extramarital sex. Unless it's your husband who rapes you, then it's all fine". Do you think European women would just readily adopt the Middle Eastern ways after being educated about them?

If you answer 'no' to these questions - like any sane European would - then I'll ask you what makes you think that Middle Eastern people adopting and embracing our values and culture would work out any better?

 

[blade1889]

People know its illegal to speed, they still do it and have awareness courses respectively. Obviously the two are very different but just telling someone its wrong is different to a course where you explain why. Now obviously that sounds very simplistic and any plans would need to be more complex than that and they are never going to be 100% effective but it is infinitely more than we appear to do now and would yield results more preferential to a) what is happening now and b) just stopping all immigration.

 

[blade1889]

Good lord I've just read past the first paragraph. As if you are comparing homosexuality to women being abused and the respective responses. Key difference being choice btw, one is t so cant be changed the offer in its raw basicness is and therefore can be.

Just because some countries have backwards world views doesn't mean education is not possible. There are plenty of people living in this country, 1st/2nd/3rd ge eration who came from these countries and don't have those views now so clearly change is possible. We aren't talking going into Saudi Arabia and changing laws we're talking about educating people on why our laws are in place and enforcing them.

And what is difference...education on equality is easier than education on inequality. And I dare say that if I went to Saudi Arabia I wouldn't agree with their laws but would abide by them, which tbh I think is the point. And if I were a woman or gay (...) then I wouldn't go and if they tried educating me I'd do a runner...so quite clearly the two situations are far more different than you're trying to make out.

 

[Gladders]

And if I were a woman or gay (...) then I wouldn't go and if they tried educating me I'd do a runner..

Then quite clearly you wouldn't be a refugee as you have a choice. Then again half the people who have ran from the Middle East aren't refugees either.

 

[Aber gas]

You can't run integration programs when you have open immigration which Germany has had. They have no idea who is inside the country and who isn't.

Of course you can, it's not easy but at the same point at which basic services are provided ie housing, clothing, food information is also available. It's not perfect but nothing about the situation is. The idea that immigration can be completely stopped by creating a fortress Europe and all the refugees can be expelled back to war zones is not only morally repugnant but also completely unworkable.

 

[blade1889]

Then quite clearly you wouldn't be a refugee as you have a choice. Then again half the people who have ran from the Middle East aren't refugees either.

And quite clearly refugees wouldn't be going to Saudi Arabia from Europe so yes ai agree with you it was a daft comparison for Art Morte yo make

 

[Art Morte]

And quite clearly refugees wouldn't be going to Saudi Arabia from Europe so yes ai agree with you it was a daft comparison for Art Morte yo make

Most Europeans wouldn't feel comfortable adapting to Middle Eastern ways, so why do you think most Middle Eastern people would feel comfortable adapting to European ways? Because "education on equality is easier than education on inequality"? That's a very European way to look at it. In Europe, equality is the norm. Over there inequality is the norm.

 

[blade1889]

Because I believe education is possible and the vast majority of people can learn even if they aren't willing to. And to get citizenship they would have to show they are receptive to the courses and that education is the way forward not just saying 'dont do that, its wrong' which is not effective for any age group or race. And its the way forward ahead of treating everyone as a lost cause who cant integrate, be it from another country or prison. If you have the same view that all people commuting rape or theft know its wrong and therefore wont ever be different then there is no point in releasing any prisoners, cos they'll just do it again. And whilst I'm going off topic it is my view education in prison is not good enough with the focus on punishment through taking people out of the communities to be seen to be doing something the main focus.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I think that adding gender equality strings attached to our aid would go a long way. When women don't control their own uterus you get stagnating economies and out of control birthrates.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

yeah our aid should be contingent on some very basic human rights issues being adhered too. who knows? down the road, if countries start being denied aid due to the disenfranchisement of women or minorities, that could provide a casus belli towards positive change. most questions of freedom and equality are answered via the pocket, and i can't help but think unconditional aid legitimises certain quite reprehensible policies

 

[mnb089mnb]

I think that adding gender equality strings attached to our aid would go a long way. When women don't control their own uterus you get stagnating economies and out of control birthrates.

Cutting aid to Northern Ireland would be a bold move.

 

[mnb089mnb]

yeah our aid should be contingent on some very basic human rights issues being adhered too. who knows? down the road, if countries start being denied aid due to the disenfranchisement of women or minorities, that could provide a casus belli towards positive change. most questions of freedom and equality are answered via the pocket, and i can't help but think unconditional aid legitimises certain quite reprehensible policies

I'm not sure much of our aid is truly unconditional as it stands. Though I imagine most of the conditions are based upon financial and military concerns rather than social issues.