the Migrant Crisis

[spireite]

Actually, it's not semantics. You have been shown to be wrong as you have all day on this topic. Your right-wing agenda has been debunked. You haven't been able to back up ANY of your quite nasty statements about the situation.

I normally join in the banter cheerfully but you have repeatedly presented a vicious, right-wing agenda and parroted unpleasant myths. It's odious, it lacks compassion and it treats migrants as numbers and "them". There's plenty of debate around this subject and much with which I disagree, but also much that I have learnt. Only not from you.

The comments about my family and friends: ignored. Feels off-limits to bring them in on any discussion, but then you haven't had much of significance to add anyway.

Yes I make nasty statements and have a viscious right wing agenda you've found me out!

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Hey, I wonder what our response would be if these people fleeing war and destruction were white Christians.

Many of them basically are.

 

[HertsWolf]

Yes I make nasty statements and have a viscious right wing agenda you've found me out!

Oh bless: you do animated gifs as well!
Funnily enough, your agenda and attitude was obvious many hours ago, but the proof had to be broken down into small chunks so that even you could understand it.

 

[spireite]

Oh bless: you do animated gifs as well!
Funnily enough, your agenda and attitude was obvious many hours ago, but the proof had to be broken down into small chunks so that even you could understand it.

Mate, I've only said we're a crowded country and it would be better if we fixed the problem instead of trying to deal with the symptoms. That's it. I made a few statements which perhaps I shouldn't and were poorly thought out, I'll admit that, but you've added the rest yourself to persuade yourself that I'm this right wing monster who blows off Nigel bloody Farage every day. I've tried to drop it and you carry on and carry on and carry on. And yes, you made a statement that 'they can't claim benefits' simple English, simply understood. I showed you an official government website which quite clearly shows they can (even if only some of them) but STILL you're right somehow, eh? Can you not see your condescending attitude here?

I AM leaving this now as I need to get tea on, and frankly it's doing my head in. Oh and I don't wish you good luck anymore, so ner!

 

[HertsWolf]

Hey, I wonder what our response would be if these people fleeing war and destruction were white Christians.

I know what you are getting at, but it doesn't always work that way. In the 90s there were many thousands of white Christians fleeing in different directions in Bosnia, Croatia, even Macedonia and Albania. Before that, in 1974, the Greek Cypriots also fled southwards.

We have, in Europe and North America, an unnerving propensity to take what isn't ours then pull the drawbridge up behind us and retreat to the comfort of our green belts and all day breakfasts. It really is difficult to conceive of how terrifying it is to be stateless, homeless and fleeing the place where you have always lived. Suddenly you have nothing, and I mean nothing. Suddenly your friends are gone, your family is split up and today becomes a matter of survival.

 

[Stringy]

Many of them basically are.

Yes. I can't say I have been following it too closely, however it seems to be that Syrian refugees have been dominating the headlines.

 

[Red]

Spireite_uk it really would be advisable to look on the Refugee Council website.

 

[Stringy]

I know what you are getting at, but it doesn't always work that way. In the 90s there were many thousands of white Christians fleeing in different directions in Bosnia, Croatia, even Macedonia and Albania. Before that, in 1974, the Greek Cypriots also fled southwards.

Not to mention Armenians in World War I!

 

[Red]

Hey, I wonder what our response would be if these people fleeing war and destruction were white Christians.

Well, when asked I distinctly remember nigel Fartrage saying we could accommodate some Christians

 

[TheMinsterman]

Hey, I wonder what our response would be if these people fleeing war and destruction were white Christians.

Which football team do they support? A policy the working man can support.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Many of them basically are.

Think white is the key word here. No Syrian ethnic group is racialised as white.

Guess the scenario to picture is political turmoil in Spain, border to France blocked off and loads of Western European expats trying to escape from Southern Spain. How do you think that would be treated?

We'd send cruise liners/naval ships to pick them up and take them somewhere safe.

 

[Red]

Oh come on now, even the most cowardly of ideologues usually give the debate a little go before waving the ad hominem white flag. You haven't even given Red a chance to accuse me of being in the BNP yet!

Interesting to note other people also think you're a racist. Can't imagine why. I like the mock indignation though, very good.

If you recall correctly you'll remember that I asked if you were in the BNP, I didn't accuse you of being in it

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Think white is the key word here. No Syrian ethnic group is racialised as white.

True I suppose. You'd be hard pressed to distinguish between a relatively fair-skinned, blue-eyed Syrian and a Southern European though.

 

[Red]

Respect to Bayern Munich who have voluntary undertaken an effort to help the people going to Germany. It seems supporters of other clubs (Hamburg and Dortmund) are supporting them. Can you imagine English supporters holding up banners welcoming refugees?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34142261

By contrast Camoron has to be fucking hectored into helping

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34135870

 

[Stringy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911

Crisis in graphs for anyone else who likes graphs.

 

[Red]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911

Crisis in graphs for anyone else who likes graphs.

Those first two graphs are bollocks. Everyone knows that they all want to come here. Right Daily Mail readers?

 

[Aber gas]

Respect to Bayern Munich who have voluntary undertaken an effort to help the people going to Germany. It seems supporters of other clubs (Hamburg and Dortmund) are supporting them. Can you imagine English supporters holding up banners welcoming refugees?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34142261

By contrast Camoron has to be fucking hectored into helping

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34135870

Check out Kingstonian and dulwich hamlet , both showing solidarity . I can't put a link up from my phone but I might screen shot it in a bit .

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I don't see a problem with countries more welcoming to refugees taking more refugees. In fact it seems like common sense to me.

 

[pontoonlew]

I think it's a sad reflection of the country we live in where Farage and his crew were supported in alarming numbers until people see a picture of a child washed up on a beach. It takes something like that to drum into people that people aren't fleeing for the fun of it.

I do kind of feel some sympathy for Cameron in this one, whatever he chooses to do he's going to upset one set of people. Europe should really spread the load, it's a moral matter at the end of the day. What doesn't help though, is the vast numbers who are holding out for England and Germany. If I was in that situation i'd not care where you sent me so long as I was safe.

 

[HertsWolf]

Respect to Bayern Munich who have voluntary undertaken an effort to help the people going to Germany. It seems supporters of other clubs (Hamburg and Dortmund) are supporting them. Can you imagine English supporters holding up banners welcoming refugees?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34142261

By contrast Camoron has to be fucking hectored into helping

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34135870

Agreed. I posted a photo earlier of a banner at a Hamburg game.
The problem for Cameron is that accepting refugees now will mean the whole summer-long bluster about the Calais situation will be seen as just that.
I was in Calais for three days in June and one evening I was at a bar watching the British TV news as they described the chaos in Calais. They even showed the very street I was in while they discussed the "massed migrants". I was looking down the street wondering where they all were. All I could see was a woman walking a dog and a drunk man on a bench.
Later that same evening a freelance journalist came into the restaurant on Rue de la Mer and spoke to the manager about getting a story. The restaurant owner shrugged his shoulders but allowed her to ask the four or five groups dining if they had a story for TV.
"I need a terrifying ordeal or were you threatened?" she asked, waving her arms around, wild-eyed.
"Errr, no. Only this, now."
In 2015, the media feels the need to shape the news for a political agenda.

 

[TheMinsterman]

I think it's a sad reflection of the country we live in where Farage and his crew were supported in alarming numbers until people see a picture of a child washed up on a beach. It takes something like that to drum into people that people aren't fleeing for the fun of it.

I do kind of feel some sympathy for Cameron in this one, whatever he chooses to do he's going to upset one set of people. Europe should really spread the load, it's a moral matter at the end of the day. What doesn't help though, is the vast numbers who are holding out for England and Germany. If I was in that situation i'd not care where you sent me so long as I was safe.

Got any statistics for that pontycakes?

 

[pontoonlew]

Got any statistics for that pontycakes?

It's based on an outsider looking in, based on the interviews and the footage from Calais. They APPEAR to be the destinations of choice, that is all...

I know if I had made it as far as Hungry I'd chance my luck staying there. I'd probably not be protesting to go further. That said Europe need to get together sharpish and come up with some sort of system in which we can all take an equal load.

No need for the patronising response really. I had almost forgotten only a small group on here are entitled to comment.

 

[Pagnell]

You made unfounded claims about the 'vast majority' of a large group of refugees. Don't be surprised if someone wants clarification of your sources for that.

Do you not think footage and interviews from Calais are going to be skewed somewhat? I really can't see how their intentions can be applied to the 'vast majority' of refugees currently attempting to enter Europe.

 

[HertsWolf]

It's based on an outsider looking in, based on the interviews and the footage from Calais. They APPEAR to be the destinations of choice, that is all...

I know if I had made it as far as Hungry I'd chance my luck staying there. I'd probably not be protesting to go further. That said Europe need to get together sharpish and come up with some sort of system in which we can all take an equal load.

Have a look at the graphics posted a while ago. Germany (and Sweden and Denmark) have been much more welcoming of refugees both now and in the recent past, so more likely that most will head there.

It's pretty unlikely Europe is able to agree on much as there are different perspectives on causes, effects and solutions. The lions share of refugees is in the countries surrounding Syria - and most would seem to want to go home rather than anywhere else.

 

[pontoonlew]

You made unfounded claims about the 'vast majority' of a large group of refugees. Don't be surprised if someone wants classification of your sources for that.

Do you not think footage and interviews from Calais are going to be skewed somewhat? I really can't see how their intentions can be applied to the 'vast majority' of refugees currently attempting to enter Europe.

Don't quote 'vast majority' when it isn't what I said.

 

[Pagnell]

Fair enough, I misread it. What kind of numbers did you have in mind?

 

[pontoonlew]

Have a look at the graphics posted a while ago. Germany (and Sweden and Denmark) have been much more welcoming of refugees both now and in the recent past, so more likely that most will head there.

It's pretty unlikely Europe is able to agree on much as there are different perspectives on causes, effects and solutions. The lions share of refugees is in the countries surrounding Syria - and most would seem to want to go home rather than anywhere else.

Aye of course they'd be the 'choice' of destination. My point is merely that by that point I don't think I'd particularly care and it has a danger of tarring the mass sympathy across Europe slightly.

The support amongst the UK is quite pleasing to see, it's seemingly more widespread than you'd imagine it would be. Especially after the support for UKIP this year. But as I said, it's sad that people need a dead child to realise the issues.

As for Europe not wanting to fully cooperate. That's inevitable, but I think there's enough support to at least take some strain off Turkey and stop people resorting to boats and other dangerous methods to get near to safety. I'd go so far as to getting the U.S. on board, because it should be a global responsibility. Let's face it, there are many countries out there that have in some way shape or form, contributed to the problems in Syria anyway.

 

[pontoonlew]

Fair enough, I misread it. What kind of numbers did you have in mind?

I didn't, it's just a gauge from the current situation that there are preferable places to others. A lot of the refugees name places (mainly Germany and England) in interviews where they'd prefer to go. My point is, by that point it shouldn't really matter. The fact I was alive and in relative safety would be more important to me. And I think if the Britidh public didn't see it as people wanting to exploit the fact we are kinder to immigrants than most, there would be perhaps be more on board with welcoming a certain number in.

 

[HertsWolf]

But as I said, it's sad that people need a dead child to realise the issues.

Agreed.
I have probably been unfair on some of the politicians today, too. Sometimes, single sentences (about separating refugees from economic migrants, this morning) really stand out but perhaps it's unfair to highlight them out of context. Some - notably Baroness Warsi - are advocating the UK doing more, which is helpful.

 

[Red]

It's based on an outsider looking in, based on the interviews and the footage from Calais. They APPEAR to be the destinations of choice, that is all...

I know if I had made it as far as Hungry I'd chance my luck staying there. I'd probably not be protesting to go further. That said Europe need to get together sharpish and come up with some sort of system in which we can all take an equal load.

No need for the patronising response really. I had almost forgotten only a small group on here are entitled to comment.

Don't know as I'd fancy staying in Hungary

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/elections/council-europe-criticises-racism-hungary-poland-315222

http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/ecri/Country-by-country/Hungary/HUN-CbC-V-2015-19-ENG.pdf