the Migrant Crisis

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Respect to Bayern Munich who have voluntary undertaken an effort to help the people going to Germany. It seems supporters of other clubs (Hamburg and Dortmund) are supporting them. Can you imagine English supporters holding up banners welcoming refugees?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34142261

By contrast Camoron has to be fucking hectored into helping

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34135870

Check out Kingstonian and dulwich hamlet , both showing solidarity . I can't put a link up from my phone but I might screen shot it in a bit .

We're marginally less mighty a football club than Bayern and Dortmund but I have found the odd pic from Ks fixture against Dulwich on Monday inc the one below

 

[TheMinsterman]

It's based on an outsider looking in, based on the interviews and the footage from Calais. They APPEAR to be the destinations of choice, that is all...

I know if I had made it as far as Hungry I'd chance my luck staying there. I'd probably not be protesting to go further. That said Europe need to get together sharpish and come up with some sort of system in which we can all take an equal load.

No need for the patronising response really. I had almost forgotten only a small group on here are entitled to comment.

Wasn't meant to be patronising senpai, just a lighthearted jest considering the "weightier" insults thrown around here already today.

When you say something like "vast numbers" are holding out for England and Germany I was hoping you may have something more substantial than your feelings, and no I don't mean that to be an asshole. I was actually curious if there was any evidence they were actively trying to get here or Germany specifically and if so how large were these numbers. The best I've found is there's over a 1000 in Calais, which compared to the overall number is actually low when you consider that is the major crossing point into the UK for them and they're bottlenecking there. I'm curious where the evidence is that they won't settle elsewhere and are actually trying to forge a path, en masse, into specific countries beyond the headlines.

I actually agree with everything you said above that btw Lew, so no it wasn't a character assassination.

 

[Red]

We're marginally less mighty a football club than Bayern and Dortmund but I have found the odd pic from Ks fixture against Dulwich on Monday inc the one below

That is brilliant to see PP and they're as big-hearted as Bayern and Dortmund, cheers for posting it. Are all their hands fucked up in that part of the country though?

 

[spireite]

Aye of course they'd be the 'choice' of destination. My point is merely that by that point I don't think I'd particularly care and it has a danger of tarring the mass sympathy across Europe slightly.

The support amongst the UK is quite pleasing to see, it's seemingly more widespread than you'd imagine it would be. Especially after the support for UKIP this year. But as I said, it's sad that people need a dead child to realise the issues.

As for Europe not wanting to fully cooperate. That's inevitable, but I think there's enough support to at least take some strain off Turkey and stop people resorting to boats and other dangerous methods to get near to safety. I'd go so far as to getting the U.S. on board, because it should be a global responsibility. Let's face it, there are many countries out there that have in some way shape or form, contributed to the problems in Syria anyway.

One thing I'm not really getting, is if Turkey is offering solace, safety and asylum, what's all this about the boats going FROM Turkey to Greece? Wasnt that poor lad on one such boat? Are they people that Turkey hasn't 'processed' in terms of the asylum figures etc or are some of refugees that Turkey accepted using Turkey as a platform to try and get elsewhere in Europe?

 

[TheMinsterman]

One thing I'm not really getting, is if Turkey is offering solace, safety and asylum, what's all this about the boats going FROM Turkey to Greece? Wasnt that poor lad on one such boat? Are they people that Turkey hasn't 'processed' in terms of the asylum figures etc or are some of refugees that Turkey accepted using Turkey as a platform to try and get elsewhere in Europe?

Total conjecture but, due to the rapid expansion of ISIS etc, maybe they don't want to settle in a country that could feasibly become unstable again if ISIS made incursions there so want to get as far from the danger as possible?

 

[spireite]

Total conjecture but, due to the rapid expansion of ISIS etc, maybe they don't want to settle in a country that could feasibly become unstable again if ISIS made incursions there so want to get as far from the danger as possible?

That was my thought too, but it would still be interesting to know whether or not these are people that Turkey has already processed and accepted as asylum seekers

 

[Aber gas]

One thing I'm not really getting, is if Turkey is offering solace, safety and asylum, what's all this about the boats going FROM Turkey to Greece? Wasnt that poor lad on one such boat? Are they people that Turkey hasn't 'processed' in terms of the asylum figures etc or are some of refugees that Turkey accepted using Turkey as a platform to try and get elsewhere in Europe?

The Turkish government is doing its best but inevitably infrastructure is being stretched and with it the ability to provide basic care . There are countless agencies based there again doing their best to cope but as conditions worsen desperate people will make desperate decisions to make their situation marginally better . Hence the boat crossings . It's less about Turkey being a platform than conditions becoming increasingly intolerable . Without an international plan regarding asylum ( possibly including the U.S. as lew suggests) this situation will continue to deteriorate .

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

That is brilliant to see PP and they're as big-hearted as Bayern and Dortmund, cheers for posting it. Are all their hands fucked up in that part of the country though?

Haha, I'm kinda unsure on the foam hands thing. Haven't been to a game in some time and I believe it's a very recent development. I think someone inadvertently started a trend and it's subsequently become a bit of a joke (you've got to get your kicks somehow if you regularly subject yourself to non-league football...)

 

[spireite]

The Turkish government is doing its best but inevitably infrastructure is being stretched and with it the ability to provide basic care . There are countless agencies based there again doing their best to cope but as conditions worsen desperate people will make desperate decisions to make their situation marginally better . Hence the boat crossings . It's less about Turkey being a platform than conditions becoming increasingly intolerable . Without an international plan regarding asylum ( possibly including the U.S. as lew suggests) this situation will continue to deteriorate .

It's a really shit situation. It's a concern all around though that it's increasingly difficult to keep track of people. What a mess
Feet on the ground in Syria probably isn't a bad idea, but I guess then all other sorts of cans of worms open up

 

[Gashead]

The media have been very fickle about this, and some of the usual suspects disgusted me with their hypocrisy to sell papers. Some of these publications were running articles on sending gun boats a few months ago, when the problem was slightly more manageable. Unfortunately, like the Ebola crisis, it appears the UK (and a lot of the world) is responding at the last minute, rather than when the problem began.

The public also are a little bit fickle, seems a change in public opinion has happened almost overnight. As such their 'solution' is probably the wrong one. A lot of people's reactions to the image of the child on the beach have been 'we need to take more'. The child's death didn't occur because they were stuck at Budapest station, it happened because of the crossing on boats. More and more instances of death via crossing will happen if people are actively encouraged to make the trip to Europe, especially if the boats across are not properly regulated or organised. Many refugees are lost BEFORE the part of the journey we see on the news daily.

I think it needs a united effort from all areas, some are better than others. Slovakia, Poland, Hungary and Bulgaria looking to religiously cleanse the refugees doesn't help. If countries are going to say 'let's take on more refugees', then the trip across has to be properly organised and safe.

It's a very difficult situation, and one I don't know the answer to.

 

[Red]

Haha, I'm kinda unsure on the foam hands thing. Haven't been to a game in some time and I believe it's a very recent development. I think someone inadvertently started a trend and it's subsequently become a bit of a joke (you've got to get your kicks somehow if you regularly subject yourself to non-league football...)

I hear you. It's not just non league football though. I remember shaking my inflatable skeleton at Deepdale while Preston hammered us 6-0. Happy days.

 

[pontoonlew]

One thing I'm not really getting, is if Turkey is offering solace, safety and asylum, what's all this about the boats going FROM Turkey to Greece? Wasnt that poor lad on one such boat? Are they people that Turkey hasn't 'processed' in terms of the asylum figures etc or are some of refugees that Turkey accepted using Turkey as a platform to try and get elsewhere in Europe?

I'm not sure on that kids situation because they'd already applied for asylum in Canada, so the Turks must've helped them at some point.

Of course the media have inevitably latched on to the Canada thing and are doing their upmost to make them look bad for it. Which is stooping fairly low imo.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

A point about nomenclature (which was perhaps more on topic at the start of the thread):

A refugee is someone who has fled their country of birth to escape war, violent persecution or some kind of natural disaster. People fleeing Syria certainly meet that criteria since the country is a chaotic, violent hellhole mired in sectarian war and no one in their right mind would want to stay there. But here's the tricky part: those Syrian refugees achieve their principal aim (to escape the hellish state of affairs in their birth country) as soon as they leave Syria. If they then proceed to travel thousands of miles in a westerly direction towards and possibly into Europe, at what point – if at all – does "refugee" become a misnomer?

I mean, what if someone flees Syria, travels through Turkey (arguably the most liberal Muslim-majority country in the world), travels through various European nations (some more prosperous than others but all fairly liberal, politically stable and safe) and eventually ends up in Calais where they try to force their way into the back of a UK-bound fish lorry. Is that person still fleeing intolerable circumstances in their own country? At what point does "economic migrant" or "illegal economic migrant" become a more accurate description/label?

Genuine (i.e. not rheotircal) question, by the way. Interested to read any responses – be they legally informed or just based on a general ideas/concepts.

 

[Red]

A point about nomenclature (which was perhaps more on topic at the start of the thread):

A refugee, accordingly to my admittedly loose understanding, is someone who has fled their country of birth to escape war, violent persecution or some kind of natural disaster. People fleeing Syria certainly meet that criteria since the country is a chaotic, violent hellhole mired in sectarian war and no one in their right mind would want to stay there. But here's the tricky part: those Syrian refugees achieve their principal aim (to escape the hellish state of affairs in their birth country) as soon as they leave Syria. If they then proceed to travel thousands of miles in a westerly direction towards and possibly into Europe, at what point – if at all – does "refugee" become a misnomer?

I mean, what if someone flees Syria, travels through Turkey (arguably the most liberal Muslim-majority country in the world), travels through various European nations (some more prosperous than others but all fairly liberal, politically stable and safe) and eventually ends up in Calais where they try to force their way into the back of a UK-bound fish lorry. Is that person still fleeing intolerable circumstances in their own country? At what point does "economic migrant" or "illegal economic migrant" become a more accurate description/label?

Genuine (i.e. not rheotircal) question, by the way. Interested to read any responses – be they legally informed or just based on a general ideas/concepts.

It's a fair question to ask as well, allthough I wouldn't say Hungary is a safe place. I think it's fair to say that some of these people are economic migrants, but I think most are genuine refugees. I read on the Refugee Council website once that most asylum seekers do not have any idea of what they'll be entitled to before they come to the UK. I wouldn't deny that sme of them are exploiting this situation, but I suspect it's a minority.

 

[jacobncfc]

I didn't, it's just a gauge from the current situation that there are preferable places to others. A lot of the refugees name places (mainly Germany and England) in interviews where they'd prefer to go. My point is, by that point it shouldn't really matter. The fact I was alive and in relative safety would be more important to me. And I think if the Britidh public didn't see it as people wanting to exploit the fact we are kinder to immigrants than most, there would be perhaps be more on board with welcoming a certain number in.

Of the refugees currently making the news, I don't think any really want to come here. They all want to go to Germany, because Germany have specifically said that they will grant asylum to Syrians. Hungary have said the opposite, their PM essentially saying today that large numbers of Muslims are not welcome in Hungary. Of course you'd try and get to Germany in those circumstances.

 

[Red]

Of the refugees currently making the news, I don't think any really want to come here. They all want to go to Germany, because Germany have specifically said that they will grant asylum to Syrians. Hungary have said the opposite, their PM essentially saying today that large numbers of Muslims are not welcome in Hungary. Of course you'd try and get to Germany in those circumstances.

Germany is certainly more welcoming of asylum seekers than the UK

 

[Red]

I don't see a problem with countries more welcoming to refugees taking more refugees. In fact it seems like common sense to me.

Of course you don't see a problem with that because you think that means our country, which it seems is less welcoming than others, can basically sit back and do fuck all ......with the consequence being less foreigners coming here. That's why you find it appealing. Meanwhile more progressive countries are trying to deal with an ongoing human tragedy.

In addition I don't think you're in a position to be making value judgments about which Syrians should be helped and which shouldn't. Are you there at the moment experiencing what they're experiening? Have you even the remotest understanding of what life on a daily basis is like in Syria?

Oh, and finally happy birthday.

 

[Pliny Harris]

Most of the hundreds of thousands of migrants are legally allowed to come here from different parts of the EU. Just 25,790 asked for asylum from other countries, and we accepted just 11,000. You are (possibly deliberately) confusing legal migrants with those who are asylum seekers.
Far more migrants from other parts of the EU are in Germany, the Netherlands, France, etc. and they can move about freely so they are not the ones in Calais, crossing the Mediterranean in boats or the Balkans on foot.

The current number of refugees in the UK is 40% less than it was in 2011. The hysteria is from piss-poor reporting and naive people believing what they read. This whole thing about "those we know about" is an absolute myth: if they "disappear" then they can't claim benefits (shock horror) not work (shock horror). It is believed that nearly all are documented one way or the other. Again, senseless scaremongering.

Our green belt is largely legally protected for the benefit of the extremely wealthy who can afford to live there. I actually support greenbelts. The government are perfectly happy to open up the greenbelt for executive housing - loads and loads of examples outside almost every city! There are now more than 800,000 vacant houses in the UK, which would house around 4.8 million people without building a single new home.

The source of the problem is us: we have taken the best resources and given them guns and corrupt dictators in return. Our politicians have supported this system down the years and now the chickens are coming home to roost. The poor and the destitute are walking and rowing towards your sofa and your green-belt right now.

Throughout history, every country has benefited enormously from immigration. The vast majority of that migration has been undocumented and "illegal". Every year in history, those who sit in comfort bleat about the place being full up.

The practical solution is that we deal with the problem we have created here and now. Tough on schools? Yes, of course. Tough on the NHS? Yes, but many migrants are medical staff. Tough on housing? Maybe, but could stimulate building boom. Tough on jobs? Probably not; evidence shows little impact.

The impractical solution, and one that would cost thousands more lives and far more money is invading countries to create 'safe zones'. In desert countries? Really? Where's the water going to come from? The food? The electricity? The roads? The houses? The everything?

Those who moan about the number of refugees coming here forget that Turkey already has 1.6 million and the Lebanon - with a population of 4.5 million has taken 1.2 million.

Bar the mudslinging, I've enjoyed reading this thread and have found it enlightening on a current affairs issue I mostly avoid due to how grim and lacking in harmless solutions it is. I daresay your stats (among others on this thread) are correct, but can you share your sources? Very keen on getting down to the facts, especially with hugely emotive narratives on board.

Ultimately dealing with fewer refugees than recent years, and allocating them <1% of empty homes, while the number of Syrians reaching our shores amount to roughly 0.1% of those leaving their home nation, seems like a mere trifle.

Was also interested to hear that Germany were sorting out their huge intake of refugees by allocating numbers evenly around the states, which presumably minimises the strain on services/infrastructure, while maximising the chances of comfortable native/migrant integration.

 

[HertsWolf]

Bar the mudslinging, I've enjoyed reading this thread and have found it enlightening on a current affairs issue I mostly avoid due to how grim and lacking in harmless solutions it is. I daresay your stats (among others on this thread) are correct, but can you share your sources? Very keen on getting down to the facts, especially with hugely emotive narratives on board.

Ultimately dealing with fewer refugees than recent years, and allocating them <1% of empty homes, while the number of Syrians reaching our shores amount to roughly 0.1% of those leaving their home nation, seems like a mere trifle.

Was also interested to hear that Germany were sorting out their huge intake of refugees by allocating numbers evenly around the states, which presumably minimises the strain on services/infrastructure, while maximising the chances of comfortable native/migrant integration.

I shared many of the sources earlier in the thread. (Unfortunately, links don't show up well on this forum) The UNHCR provides data and specific research, but I have cheated with a lot of the figures coming from The Guardian, Independent and UK government pages. However, these kinds of government and media sources are often used in reports themselves. Human Rights Watch provides both data and reports, while Amnesty provides a lot of context. The Refugee Council is a source of information about the situation in the UK, but not all their sources are cited but they do maintain statistics on the numbers of asylum seekers and those granted asylum.

As migration is a huge human phenomenon, there are a number of institutes, think-tanks and research centres dealing with the subject, including the IMI, the MPI and the Migration Policy Centre.

Germany has always ben more efficient at dealing with crises. The size and nature of cities like Frankfurt, Munich, Koln, Dusseldorf and Hamburg mean that there isn't a mad rush to head for just Berlin, but in the UK the burden is disproportionately on London. So spreading the load around in Germany makes sense and is easier to do.

I am always wary of using the term "they" (or "we") because it immediately generalises, but it is something we all do. Even in that sentence. As a country we have tended to be very generous on humanitarian funding but less welcoming on the ground. This might also be at the root of why integration is often slower in the UK than elsewhere. Commonly it is the second and third generations who integrate.

 

[Dave-Vale]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ed-syrian-boy-shows-tragic-plight-of-refugees

Posted about this in the things we hate thread but it is probably better posted in here although it may have already been discussed.

I can't understand how anybody can't get that the vast majority of these people are refugees and have the option of staying in their home and dying or getting out for a chance to survive.

Seen loads of positive stuff though after that photo was released. Seems it has touched the hearts of a lot of people. Collection points being opened up and people sharing loads of positive stuff on Facebook/Twitter. An Amazon wish list was opened and pretty much everything on there has been purchased. Items like tents costing over £300 have been bought right down to real basic such as foods, toiletries and sleeping bags.

There's a collection point near me so I'm popping in today to donate a couple of winter coats and other items of clothing. I urge you all to do the same.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/CalaisMigrantSolidarityActionFromUK/

 

[Pagnell]

If you're someone who's mind has been changed just because you saw a picture of a dead kid on a beach then you're a fucking moron.

For a lot of people it's not a question of having their mind changed, more a question of being woken up from an element of desensitisation. The blog below from a woman my wife follows sums it up quite well.

http://theunmumsymum.blogspot.com/2015/09/somebodys-daughter-somebodys-son.html

 

[spireite]

I feel I need to just clarify a few points here that I should have clarified yesterday but it got a bit heated with Mr Wolf and I'm sure we both said things we regret and the conversation went in a direction neither of us wanted. At no time have I said that we can't take any more refugees at all, and that's certainly not what I was trying to put across. I agree what we should be taking more Syrian refugees, but in the tens of thousands, not the hundreds of thousands. We're already one of the most densely populated major nations in Europe I believe and the rate of our population growth is having an undeniable affect on our public services, at least according to the ONS. If other countries can accept more, then great, good for them and it should be applauded, but I'm sure their situation will be different to ours and it's comparing apples to oranges.

I stand by my argument that we should be doing more actually IN Syria to try and fix this problem. 200,000+ people have been killed, massacred, burned alive, decapitated and had chemical weapons launched on them since that war began and we've done little to nothing about it. That's the main problem here as I see it. Us, the States, and other major nations should try and sort out that mess once and for all so that those Syrians who wish to be repatriated can do so safely and without fear.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

The problem is I worry this crisis is going to push us into being out of the EU which I still think is the wrong decision.

Whether you call them migrants, refugees, immigrants, etc, etc the only person this entire current run is going to please is Nigel Farage............a person who won't be fussed at lumping the whole lot together and he will have a hell of a lot of the british public behind him on it.

Europe and the western world needs to think of other solutions becaue whether people think it humane or not.............most just do not want them brough into the country and a lot of other countries are the same. I know that will make me sound terrible and its not meant to be, I have a Czech Girlfriend who moved to UK 6 years ago and lives in Carlisle and I can see the problems and reactions sometimes due to this, I'm just trying to state the harsh reality.

If this issue continues with Europe allowing masses in, Regardless of the reasons it is pushing most Western countries down a dangerous path towards far-right extremist parties.............worries me a lot this trend of rising extremist parties across the board.

but we left Iraq far too early, should not have listened to the mass calls...............that country needed a good 10-20 years more help, we just decided to say 'well we got rid of your nutter, now its your problem'

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

The country did not need invading in the first place, there was no chance it would ever be sorted out by that war, which was a criminal war based on lies.

I think you have a very negative view of the general public, if anything the general mood seems to be pro-refugee. It's not as if huge numbers will come here, I'm expecting around 10,000, which is really no number at all which will make next to no impact on the UK's infrastructure.

 

[smat]

It's interesting to take a step back an observe this crisis phenomenon for what it is. Essentially we're being spurred into action because dead people washing up on Italian beaches is much less palatable than people being blown to shit in Syria where we can't see them. Somehow it's the hundreds dying in illegal border crossings that trump the tens of thousands dying while fighting or enduring a civil war that will determine the fate of their nation. What did people think was happening in the world? How on Earth is this a 'migrant' crisis? The people with the means and inclination to escape the fight are the Syrians we should care least about. I would commit troops to Syria long before I would open the borders. If you're someone who's mind has been changed just because you saw a picture of a dead kid on a beach then you're a fucking moron. This symptom is almost trivial compared to the cause.

What will troops in Syria leave behind? Helping refugees and bringing peace to Syria aren't mutually exclusive (though, frankly, we're unlikely to do anything but fuck up in the Middle East, so it makes sense to be more concerned about the people we can actually directly help for now. IMVHO.)

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Germany is certainly more welcoming of asylum seekers than the UK

Not sure about that, Red. It's accepting more at the moment, certainly and there are certainly a lot of people fighting for their rights. However, Germany also has a vicious right-wing which is attacking Asylum Seekers and burning their shelters down. Germany has a long history of anti-immigration (not even including the fact Germany organised the mass murder of millions of people it considered alien), just look at the way they treat the Turkish diaspora, refusing many of them the right to be German citizens.

 

[spireite]

Who invaded? It's a civil war isn't it? Before ISIS took over at least. I'd be fine with helping that amount of people - the problem still remains, however. Do we just leave those still in Syria to their fate and allow ISIS to spread further, largely uncontested?

 

[smat]

I think you have a very negative view of the general public, if anything the general mood seems to be pro-refugee. It's not as if huge numbers will come here, I'm expecting around 10,000, which is really no number at all which will make next to no impact on the UK's infrastructure.

Been listening to my local radio station this morning, featuring an aghast presenter taking calls from Oxford's finest. "Send them on a plane back to where they come from," and "why does Britain have to sort it out... we need to look after our own!" have been popular refrains. They might just be putting c*** on air to provoke debate, mind.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

The country did not need invading in the first place, there was no chance it would ever be sorted out by that war, which was a criminal war based on lies.

I think you have a very negative view of the general public, if anything the general mood seems to be pro-refugee. It's not as if huge numbers will come here, I'm expecting around 10,000, which is really no number at all which will make next to no impact on the UK's infrastructure.

I still disagree with this at times, just because the atrocities were kept nice a quiet behind a dictator and not shoved in our faces doesn't mean its right to therefore be happy to do nothing.

but we've handled the entire situation from the war to the peace completely wrong on that I agree.

and while yes it would not have stopped the Syrian problem, the ISIS problem has escalated it all further which is why its gone out of control.

but I think the big thing needed now is troops on the ground, ISIS destroyed as a working unit and back to small groups. Syria is a bigger problem because like Korea and Vietnam before it the west has different views to Russia on who to back.

I disagree with you on the gen public also..........that minority anti everyone group is 4.5 million and growing, while 10,000 coming in as you say won't change much when it hits 20-30-40,000 and Farage and Daily Mail and co start hyping up the usual stuff that figure will grow.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Who invaded? It's a civil war isn't it? Before ISIS took over at least. I'd be fine with helping that amount of people - the problem still remains, however. Do we just leave those still in Syria to their fate and allow ISIS to spread further, largely uncontested?

He was talking about 'leaving Iraq'.