The Religion Thread

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

How on earth have I only discovered this thread?! I absolutely love a good old chat about religion.

I was raised Roman Catholic, attended the local Catholic schools, went to church once a week, was even an alter server, the whole shabang. Heck I remember on the old forum I would genuinely get offended by religious threads as they inevitably turned into a slog of religion bashing. I'd have described myself as a pretty religious person, although I never adhered to biblical literalism, and I think it's quite clear some books in the Bible are not meant to be interpreted that way.

At GCSE 'Religious Education' at a Catholic school is literally Bible study, learn the canonical gospels, sacraments, and learn very basic Church teachings on ethical issues and that's the exam covered. Ridiculous. I never really had anyone ever challenge my faith in any sort of intellectual way, so rather naturally I believed exactly what I'd been taught my whole life. Then for A Levels I moved to a secular college and Religious Studies was one of my options. For the first time properly in my life I was engaging with religion and why I believed what I did. At first I was a staunch defender of religion in a roomful of atheists (although the teacher was religious, she was excellent and impartial) but I was starting to notice that at times when further challenged about things I was unable to come up with an answer that I found satisfactory. But I was still a Catholic, just questioning little bits here and there.

Then we encountered the problem of evil. For people unaware it is in a nutshell:

1. God is omnipotent.
2. God is omniscient.
3. God is omnibenevolent.
4. An omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent diety could see evil, stop evil, and would have the will to do this.
5. Evil exists.
6. Therefore there can not be an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent diety as portrayed in the Abrahamic religions.

This for me caused a massive problem. I read pretty much every theodicy out there in an attempt to find a solution to this, I didn't find any that provided a satisfactory explanation, and I sure as hell couldn't come up with one. Therefore I gradually phased out of my Christian beliefs. Incidentally one of my atheist mates on that course converted to the Orthodox Church a year later.

That was about eight years ago, I would now class myself as very much a confused agnostic! I know exactly what I don't believe, but I have no idea what I do. For some unexplainable reason when I redecorated my room I made sure I still had two crucifixes placed on shelves and artwork of St Francis hanging up. I've also taken much more of an interest in religion. I undertook my Masters at King's College London, they offered the 'Associateship of King's College', a separate award concerning religion and ethics which is genuinely the most interesting thing I have ever done. It was pretty weird as well being one of the sort of atheistic (for want of a better word) ones amongst a number of religious people. I can also put AKC after my name now, what an utterly pretentious tosser I am!

Over the last year and a half I lost my dad to cancer and then my gran (his mum) to a stroke, although after my dad died she deteriorated mentally at an alarming rate. She was very much your stereotypical devout Irish Catholic, my nan is about as devout as you can get, as is my mum. My extended family (not that I see them ever) are all Catholic as fuck. Now it's somewhat surreal going through a personal tragedy and seeing everyone around you praying, turning to God for answers that invariably do not arrive. Seeing the priest administering last rites and everyone fervently focused on prayer is one of the most surreal and empty experiences I've ever had in my life.

Blimey this post has dragged on far longer than the original paragraph I envisaged. And it's almost 6am. Probably best to stop here and save any actual contribution to the thread for a later date.

 

[Back in the DHSS]

Well it's that time of year again with Christmas fast approaching and all the atheists at my work are kicking off in case they have to work during the festivities, oh the irony.

 

[blade1889]

I love celebrating Christs birthday. How do we know it was 25th December again?

 

[sl1k]

I love celebrating Christs birthday. How do we know it was 25th December again?

We don't

Still, love this time of year. Everyone usually alot more jolly too.

 

[silkyman]

How on earth have I only discovered this thread?! I absolutely love a good old chat about religion.

I was raised Roman Catholic, attended the local Catholic schools, went to church once a week, was even an alter server, the whole shabang. Heck I remember on the old forum I would genuinely get offended by religious threads as they inevitably turned into a slog of religion bashing. I'd have described myself as a pretty religious person, although I never adhered to biblical literalism, and I think it's quite clear some books in the Bible are not meant to be interpreted that way.

At GCSE 'Religious Education' at a Catholic school is literally Bible study, learn the canonical gospels, sacraments, and learn very basic Church teachings on ethical issues and that's the exam covered. Ridiculous. I never really had anyone ever challenge my faith in any sort of intellectual way, so rather naturally I believed exactly what I'd been taught my whole life. Then for A Levels I moved to a secular college and Religious Studies was one of my options. For the first time properly in my life I was engaging with religion and why I believed what I did. At first I was a staunch defender of religion in a roomful of atheists (although the teacher was religious, she was excellent and impartial) but I was starting to notice that at times when further challenged about things I was unable to come up with an answer that I found satisfactory. But I was still a Catholic, just questioning little bits here and there.

Then we encountered the problem of evil. For people unaware it is in a nutshell:

1. God is omnipotent.
2. God is omniscient.
3. God is omnibenevolent.
4. An omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent diety could see evil, stop evil, and would have the will to do this.
5. Evil exists.
6. Therefore there can not be an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent diety as portrayed in the Abrahamic religions.

This for me caused a massive problem. I read pretty much every theodicy out there in an attempt to find a solution to this, I didn't find any that provided a satisfactory explanation, and I sure as hell couldn't come up with one. Therefore I gradually phased out of my Christian beliefs. Incidentally one of my atheist mates on that course converted to the Orthodox Church a year later.

That was about eight years ago, I would now class myself as very much a confused agnostic! I know exactly what I don't believe, but I have no idea what I do. For some unexplainable reason when I redecorated my room I made sure I still had two crucifixes placed on shelves and artwork of St Francis hanging up. I've also taken much more of an interest in religion. I undertook my Masters at King's College London, they offered the 'Associateship of King's College', a separate award concerning religion and ethics which is genuinely the most interesting thing I have ever done. It was pretty weird as well being one of the sort of atheistic (for want of a better word) ones amongst a number of religious people. I can also put AKC after my name now, what an utterly pretentious tosser I am!

Over the last year and a half I lost my dad to cancer and then my gran (his mum) to a stroke, although after my dad died she deteriorated mentally at an alarming rate. She was very much your stereotypical devout Irish Catholic, my nan is about as devout as you can get, as is my mum. My extended family (not that I see them ever) are all Catholic as fuck. Now it's somewhat surreal going through a personal tragedy and seeing everyone around you praying, turning to God for answers that invariably do not arrive. Seeing the priest administering last rites and everyone fervently focused on prayer is one of the most surreal and empty experiences I've ever had in my life.

Blimey this post has dragged on far longer than the original paragraph I envisaged. And it's almost 6am. Probably best to stop here and save any actual contribution to the thread for a later date.

Great post. I always think I became an atheist the easy way having never had it rammed down my throat, and came to it from a different angle, but it's always interesting to see other people's journey.

 

[silkyman]

Well it's that time of year again with Christmas fast approaching and all the atheists at my work are kicking off in case they have to work during the festivities, oh the irony.

Well, no. At the one time of year that the nation shuts down and most people get the chance to spend some time with the family, everyone wants to have that opportunity.

Christmas has long since transcended religion. Perhaps it needs a rebrand.

 

[Craig]

Practising Christians should get first refusal for time off at Christmas.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Well it's that time of year again with Christmas fast approaching and all the atheists at my work are kicking off in case they have to work during the festivities, oh the irony.

Not really though. Midwinter festivals, centred around the solstice, were a common feature of many European pagan cultures and a lot of the traditions that we associate with Christmas have their origins in those old celebrations. Given that they essentially hijacked something which was already in existence, I don't particularly see why Christians ought to have a monopoly on winter festivities.

 

[Craig]

I believe they should. I'm not a practising Christian, not particularly religious at all, but I don't have a chip on my shoulder over people that are. I'm not interested in your Christmas was a pagan holiday hijacked by Christians angle, I see it as straw man arguing at its worst, we shouldn't respect Christian festivities because they essentially replaced older religions in Europe, haven't got time for it. Christmas is a cornerstone of the Christian calendar. I don't want to work Christmas Day, I have a family I love who I want to spend the day with eating and drinking my fill, but if I have to work it rather than a genuine Christian then I have no massive issue with that, I get 6 weeks paid annual leave a year in which I can plan quality family time, be it a holiday or just visiting one of my siblings for a few days. I respect a Christian's right to have their religious holiday off work as much as I respect having to accommodate my Muslim colleagues during Ramadan and having to cover for my Jewish colleagues when the Tel Aviv office closes down for one of their many religious festivals, even though I hate dealing with the aspect of the business that they specialise in.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Nah. It's a cultural tradition as much (if not more) than it is a religious one. Bollocks to their first refusals.

 

[G-Dragon]

Nah. It's a cultural tradition as much (if not more) than it is a religious one. Bollocks to their first refusals.

Agreed. I celebrate Christmas and Thanksgiving but I am not religious nor are my parents/relatives Christians. I know a lot of other similar people It definitely has become more of a cultural tradition.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

A lot of the best bits of Christianity were pinched from the pagans, and in turn, secular folk will pinch them too. I would suggest that at this point, Christmas has long since transcended Christianity, in this country at least.

 

[silkyman]

When my wife worked in retail in Manchester, there was a diverse group working there and it just made sense that the Muslim lads worked more over Christmas in exchange for more time off over Ramadan etc.

What other actual holy days are there at Christmas? You already get extra consideration for Sunday's!

 

[silkyman]

A lot of the best bits of Christianity were pinched from the pagans, and in turn, secular folk will pinch them too. I would suggest that at this point, Christmas has long since transcended Christianity, in this country at least.

The idea of a general celebration of the winter solstice is a lot older than Christianity. I hope Christians who want atheists to ignore it all, don't have trees or any of the other pagan rituals that go with it.

Religion is all about branding.

 

[Back in the DHSS]

Have I missed something? Were/are Pagans atheists?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Nope.

 

[Womble98]

How on earth have I only discovered this thread?! I absolutely love a good old chat about religion.

I was raised Roman Catholic, attended the local Catholic schools, went to church once a week, was even an alter server, the whole shabang. Heck I remember on the old forum I would genuinely get offended by religious threads as they inevitably turned into a slog of religion bashing. I'd have described myself as a pretty religious person, although I never adhered to biblical literalism, and I think it's quite clear some books in the Bible are not meant to be interpreted that way.

At GCSE 'Religious Education' at a Catholic school is literally Bible study, learn the canonical gospels, sacraments, and learn very basic Church teachings on ethical issues and that's the exam covered. Ridiculous. I never really had anyone ever challenge my faith in any sort of intellectual way, so rather naturally I believed exactly what I'd been taught my whole life. Then for A Levels I moved to a secular college and Religious Studies was one of my options. For the first time properly in my life I was engaging with religion and why I believed what I did. At first I was a staunch defender of religion in a roomful of atheists (although the teacher was religious, she was excellent and impartial) but I was starting to notice that at times when further challenged about things I was unable to come up with an answer that I found satisfactory. But I was still a Catholic, just questioning little bits here and there.

Then we encountered the problem of evil. For people unaware it is in a nutshell:

1. God is omnipotent.
2. God is omniscient.
3. God is omnibenevolent.
4. An omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent diety could see evil, stop evil, and would have the will to do this.
5. Evil exists.
6. Therefore there can not be an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent diety as portrayed in the Abrahamic religions.

This for me caused a massive problem. I read pretty much every theodicy out there in an attempt to find a solution to this, I didn't find any that provided a satisfactory explanation, and I sure as hell couldn't come up with one. Therefore I gradually phased out of my Christian beliefs. Incidentally one of my atheist mates on that course converted to the Orthodox Church a year later.

That was about eight years ago, I would now class myself as very much a confused agnostic! I know exactly what I don't believe, but I have no idea what I do. For some unexplainable reason when I redecorated my room I made sure I still had two crucifixes placed on shelves and artwork of St Francis hanging up. I've also taken much more of an interest in religion. I undertook my Masters at King's College London, they offered the 'Associateship of King's College', a separate award concerning religion and ethics which is genuinely the most interesting thing I have ever done. It was pretty weird as well being one of the sort of atheistic (for want of a better word) ones amongst a number of religious people. I can also put AKC after my name now, what an utterly pretentious tosser I am!

Over the last year and a half I lost my dad to cancer and then my gran (his mum) to a stroke, although after my dad died she deteriorated mentally at an alarming rate. She was very much your stereotypical devout Irish Catholic, my nan is about as devout as you can get, as is my mum. My extended family (not that I see them ever) are all Catholic as fuck. Now it's somewhat surreal going through a personal tragedy and seeing everyone around you praying, turning to God for answers that invariably do not arrive. Seeing the priest administering last rites and everyone fervently focused on prayer is one of the most surreal and empty experiences I've ever had in my life.

Blimey this post has dragged on far longer than the original paragraph I envisaged. And it's almost 6am. Probably best to stop here and save any actual contribution to the thread for a later date.

When did you do GCSE RE? When I did it it was pretty open minded, we learnt about Church views on ethical matters and why they are criticised and then had to write about which side we thought was correct. The majority of the class wrote on the opposite side of Catholicism for issues like gay rights and abortion, and the teacher, a catholic, was absolutely fine with that and marked them just the same.

Nah. It's a cultural tradition as much (if not more) than it is a religious one. Bollocks to their first refusals.

I disagree massively. As someone who has been brought up in a Catholic household, the religious aspect is just as important and is the main thing.

 

[Stagat]

Some of you guys should chill out in the dhyana mudra for a bit imo.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

When did you do GCSE RE? When I did it it was pretty open minded, we learnt about Church views on ethical matters and why they are criticised and then had to write about which side we thought was correct. The majority of the class wrote on the opposite side of Catholicism for issues like gay rights and abortion, and the teacher, a catholic, was absolutely fine with that and marked them just the same.

This answer is going to depress me... I'm 26 now so 2005-2006. Abortion might have come up, pretty sure gay rights never did.

 

[Womble98]

This answer is going to depress me... I'm 26 now so 2005-2006. Abortion might have come up, pretty sure gay rights never did.

That makes sense, it has changed quite a bit since then.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

I disagree massively. As someone who has been brought up in a Catholic household, the religious aspect is just as important and is the main thing.

You're only disagreeing with me if you think everyone has to observe Christmas in the same way as your Catholic household. My point is that Christians can't claim sole ownership of something which is essentially a mishmash of a lot of different customs and traditions. If people wish to place a greater emphasis on the religious elements then that's absolutely fine but I don't see why British atheists and secularists who have grown up in the same tradition shouldn't regard it as an equally significant day in the calendar. Shouldn't we be able to attach our own meanings to a winter festival which has pre-Christian origins and which has, throughout the course of its history, continually evolved, co-opting different rituals and traditions along the way?

 

[silkyman]

That makes sense, it has changed quite a bit since then.

When I did RE, back in the 90s we actually learned about religions. Various backstories to Judaism and Islam etc. I personally think it should be replaced with a more general cultural education. Still covering religion, but with a wider focus that can incorporate China and Japan etc

 

[silkyman]

You're only disagreeing with me if you think everyone has to observe Christmas in the same way as your Catholic household. My point is that Christians can't claim sole ownership of something which is essentially a mishmash of a lot of different customs and traditions. If people wish to place a greater emphasis on the religious elements then that's absolutely fine but I don't see why British atheists and secularists who have grown up in the same tradition shouldn't regard it as an equally significant day in the calendar. Shouldn't we be able to attach our own meanings to a winter festival which has pre-Christian origins and which has, throughout the course of its history, continually evolved, co-opting different rituals and traditions along the way?

This.

If we are really going to have an 'I was here first' attitude then Druids should probably get first dibs.

 

[silkyman]

I like this clip. Its actually about alternative medicine, but works just as well for my feelings on creationism and religion in general. 'Science doesn't know everything'

'Science knows this, or it would stop. Science doesn't know everything, but that doesn't mean you can fill the gaps with whatever fairy story you fancy.'

 

[silkyman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34891928

I find their lack of faith disturbing...

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

"The Church called the decision "plain silly" and warned it could have a "chilling" effect on free speech."

Classic.

After the football yesterday I went for a few drinks in Strand. Walked out of Temple station and this bloke came running over to me, handed me a leaflet about born again Christianity and asked me if I knew Jesus. Normally I would walk off, but being frozen solid at Welling and then Shadwell station put me in a somewhat argumentative mood.

Ended up having a good debate with him, after about 2 minutes he called over his buddy to help him out. Put the problem of evil to both of them, neither had a clue what it was. One of them genuinely replied to the problem of evil with 'there are monkeys and there are humans, how does evolution explain that?'. I was told on a few times I was going to hell, to which I may have snapped at them about using tactics of fear rather than any actual rational argument. Brought back up the problem of evil, was told that this proves the devil is at work, this can be seen through people having 666 tattooed on their arm (wtf?) and violence amongst Jews and Muslims. I may have snapped at this point, asked them about the KKK and Breivik, I was told this is the devil at work. I told them to give over and walked off with them telling me they would pray for my soul.

 

[HertsWolf]

Nah. It's a cultural tradition as much (if not more) than it is a religious one. Bollocks to their first refusals.

I love that Richard Dawkins describes himself as a cultural Christian and that he likes singing Christmas carols.

 

[HertsWolf]

You're only disagreeing with me if you think everyone has to observe Christmas in the same way as your Catholic household. My point is that Christians can't claim sole ownership of something which is essentially a mishmash of a lot of different customs and traditions. If people wish to place a greater emphasis on the religious elements then that's absolutely fine but I don't see why British atheists and secularists who have grown up in the same tradition shouldn't regard it as an equally significant day in the calendar. Shouldn't we be able to attach our own meanings to a winter festival which has pre-Christian origins and which has, throughout the course of its history, continually evolved, co-opting different rituals and traditions along the way?

I suspect most practicing Christians would fully agree with you. I certainly do. But I do want the first refusal on those days off.
I really couldn't give a toss how others wish to celebrate their various festivals. If it provides meaning, variety, excitement, comfort and entertainment and some kind of fulfilment then we should all be happy.

 

[SUTSS]

I love that Richard Dawkins describes himself as a cultural Christian and that he likes singing Christmas carols.

I think everyone that has grown up in Britain is a cultural Christian to some extent.

 

[Back in the DHSS]

Anyone ever celebrated the Buddhist festival Songkran in Thailand, or the Hindu Holi festival in India. These religious people sure know how to party!