The Rooney Rule

[Tom_CUFC]

You know what's going to happen, a load of not good enough black coaches will get token interviews for managers jobs, none of them will get a job, because they're not good enough now and still won't be good enough then, and then they'll start claiming that all chairmen are racist.

You know why you're not in management Paul Ince? Because you're a proven failure above League 2. You know why you're not in management Sol Campbell? Because you think you can waltz right into a top job. You know why Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink is in management? Because he started at the bottom, worked hard, and has proven he's good enough to earn his current opportunity.

As mentioned above, the "problem" lies at the foundations of coaching, but if people don't want to do it, regardless of their background and ethnicity, you can't make them.

This is the 21st century, there's so much money in the game now, football can't afford to be racist, the best person for the job will get the job without the need for any tokenism.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

An extremely racist scheme brought in to produce 'equality'..........well that makes plenty of sense.

Half of the reason there probably isn't a lot of black managers is most clubs just rotate the same group of failure managers constantly.....oh loo lets give so and so his 10th club, he's failed at the other 9, but well he surely must be law of average wise able to succeed at the 10th.

Football in England has some weird logic, if your not foreign you'll be a horrendous huge top flight club manager, if your an ex big name player who managed about 20+ games in conf/L2 your suddenly a superb championship manager more deserving of a chance than anyone else, if you've failed In L1/L2 3-4 times your very likely to get another L2 club easily enough, Goalkeepers are somehow not allowed as managers really, Defenders never know how to sort out bad defences and our most skillful players when in charge seem to favour ultra hoof ball football.

One thing I still do not think we have with all this weird logic is a racism problem there....I just think more will get in over time I just think we've not had many black players coaching to push into that next step, plus the lower league has been full of giving the same clump of managers numerous chances which I think is changing.

 

[Habbinalan]

Having got into discussion on this in another thread, I'm amazed how many reactions there are based on assumptions that have nothing to do with what is proposed. This forum continues to broaden my education.

By the way, I think it's a great idea.

 

[mnb089mnb]

This may explain some of the issues in the thread:

 

[Tom_CUFC]

In fairness, I only read the headline and saw "Rooney rule" and assumed, when having read the article now it isn't quite that simple, but I still fundamentally disagree with the principle of it.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

See I have to disagree Habbinalan because it then means your as such putting people ahead in the queue based on non-football and non-skill reasons.

plus at the exact same time it may not solve the problem, but could make it a lot worse......clubs can still en masse not appoint anyone, and then causes bigger rifts.

I'd much rather football introduced a stronger football apprenticeship scheme and as such helped pay wages for ex players who wanted to get into clubs.....I'd say my club Carlisle would gladly take up an extra coach if their wages were all but funded by another scheme....I'm sure other small clubs would also be very happy with additional coaches who frankly cannot afford more than a small team.

Our GK coach has left us because from all accounts he was part-time, now if there was a scheme that allowed us to fill gaps with young new apprentice coaches who would be mostly funded in the short-term by football to help them gain pratical experience..........I think that would help all parties in the long term.

and I doubt any club would care if they were English, Scottish, welsh, Irish, white, Black, Asian etc, etc and I think practical in the field experience will see more new faces in the main game.

 

[mnb089mnb]

This is the 21st century, there's so much money in the game now, football can't afford to be racist, the best person for the job will get the job without the need for any tokenism.

The free market will stop racism.

 

[Habbinalan]

In fairness, I only read the headline and saw "Rooney rule" and assumed, when having read the article now it isn't quite that simple, but I still fundamentally disagree with the principle of it.

Correct me if I'm making wrong assumptions but I guess you probably agree with the principle that BAEM players and coaches should have an equal chance to progress a career in football but you have a problem with the principle behind "Positive Action."

I think I can understand that but come to a different conclusion.

I have no problem with physically disadvantaged being given a "leg up" in getting into work because, with a bit of adjustment, they can do a cracking job. I certainly don't object to legislation that ensures they get a fair crack.

I have worked with dyslexics, many of whom were far better than me and the rest of the team at solving problems, thinking on their feet and persuading people to do things differently - but they all struggled to progress because of the routes to jobs and progression in the organisations I worked for. I have no problem with making it easier for them to get interviews, shine in interviews and overcome barriers.

I'm applying the same principles when I say I think this example of "positive action" is a good idea, especially as it's being done gradually and shows the Football League getting ahead of the game (and ahead of the FA and Premiership).

 

[oakroader]

is it me or are the managers of the majority of african and asian teams,as seen in world cups etc, mostly white european??
how many good black/afro-carribean/asian players have been overlooked by their own countries??

 

[Habbinalan]

See I have to disagree Habbinalan because it then means your as such putting people ahead in the queue based on non-football and non-skill reasons.

You don't have to put them ahead in the queue. No need to exclude anyone. You just have to give an extra interview if there's a BAEM applicant and he/she wouldn't make your shortlist.

If clubs don't appoint based on their judgement of best person for the job, I have no problem - even if I might disagree with the appointment.

Lots of other things need doing as well but this still feels like progress rather than a step back or pandering to political correctness.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

I can agree with your view Habbinalan about helping a group struggling into the game, but this way just won't work its sort've interview time and your chairman is going 'well here the token Black guy' their view as you go in isn't 'is this person worthy of the job' its a case of 'this person ticks an equality box'

Getting more black players into coaching is the best way, get them with experience working as a coach or an assistant and more and more clubs will accept them deserving a chance as a manager. If that meant helping small clubs fund their wages then for me its a good way to use the vast money English football has in a positive way.

get more ex-players being part-funded to coaching in L1, L2, non-league where they'd like more coaches but cannot afford them and give it 5-10 years I bet we'll see a much more balanced managerial game.

 

[Tom_CUFC]

Correct me if I'm making wrong assumptions but I guess you probably agree with the principle that BAEM players and coaches should have an equal chance to progress a career in football but you have a problem with the principle behind "Positive Action."

Of course, and yes.

 

[Habbinalan]

I wouldn't advocate funding help for professional clubs to do this at any first team level. There are plenty of BAEM players out there who, if they really want to progress in the game AND think it's possible, can afford to work their way up without a subsidy.

The main impact of this change will be to increase opportunities at the lower steps in the coaching and academy level - but if it's introduced there, what is the excuse for not going all the way? If prejudiced or (actually more likely) narrow minded chairmen and directors fail to appoint the best available, I'm happy that other clubs will. As Tom and mbn said:

.........., football can't afford to be racist, the best person for the job will get the job without the need for any tokenism.

I'd just say that some clubs can and will afford in the short term. Those who don't will get a competitive advantage and over time the issue will go away.

Oh! and no one advocates token appointments. If some clubs have token interviews, I see that as their problem.

 

[Glasshalffullpools]

For manager selection, they should discriminate against people who are incapable of learning the difference between 'their', 'there' and 'they're'.

Perhaps predictive text ought to first! Have you tried typing a quick reply whilst being bounced around on a train, I can't recall smiley faces being on my English "O" level paper!! Message boards are about giving an opinion which 9 times out of ten has been asked for, they are not an audition for University Challenge!

 

[Murphy]

I might be being naive, but I genuinely believe that if you have the quality and the know how, regardless of colour or creed in British football, you will get a job. Personally not a fan of the Rooney Rule, and I'm fairly sure I've heard before from black or minority candidates that they don't want to feel included on interview lists because they simply 'have to be', devalues the position and more importantly it devalues them, plus how much of a confidence knock is it if they continue to get knocked back simply because they're not good enough?

 

[WSBee]

I might be being naive, but I genuinely believe that if you have the quality and the know how, regardless of colour or creed in British football, you will get a job. Personally not a fan of the Rooney Rule, and I'm fairly sure I've heard before from black or minority candidates that they don't want to feel included on interview lists because they simply 'have to be', devalues the position and more importantly it devalues them, plus how much of a confidence knock is it if they continue to get knocked back simply because they're not good enough?

Pretty sure Hasselbaink himself has spoken out against the rule in the past.

 

[Shrimper92]

Stupid idea that will do more damage than good. Won't be long before you get someone complaining about racism because they haven't been appointed after 5 interviews.

 

[Habbinalan]

Heather Rabbatts, Chair of The Football Association’s Inclusion Advisory Board, has today welcomed recommendations by the Football League to increase representation from black, Asian and minority ethnic minority coaches and managers.

She said: "The Football League's announcement is a significant moment for all of us involved in the game and ensuring that our collective commitment to securing representation of Black, Asian and ethnic minority coaches and managers is realised.

"The Rooney Rule provided a lightning rod across the NFL and The FA and our Inclusion Advisory Board has been working with colleagues to develop a response which together creates a step change.

"A crucial component in achieving this is the Football League and its 72 clubs. This agreement which includes mandatory rules for recruitment into academies together with identifying volunteer clubs to pilot new procedures designed to include BAME candidates on shortlists is a crucial development to increase opportunity and representation.

"It is only by collective action and shared responsibility that we will truly end discrimination and open up the pathways for talent. At The FA, there is a commitment to developing coaches throughout Club England, providing more education and pro licence opportunities for BAME candidates enabling them to apply for jobs, working with the PFA and LMA on the job ready list, and with the Premier League on its Elite Coach Apprenticeship Scheme (ECAS). We all play a role in making real our commitment to bring about change in this area."

Read more at http://www.football-league.co.uk/ne...eague-review-2483867.aspx#TZYsulGV6X43o1Cj.99

 

[RavenBish]

I don't like the fact they're just applying an NFL rule to English football. In America they'd done studies which proved that black coaches were more likely to be fired and not hired too - so there was actually evidence, rather than 'not many black managers are there?'. There's also other things such as the fact coaches work their way up through position coaching and college coaching rather than the football system where you can walk into a League 1 job a week after retiring as a player.

I also question a lot of things like how many black people are even applying for positions? The same 4/5 seem to be piping up for the last 2 years and they're either proven shite managers like Ince/Barnes, under-qualified like Johnson or just plain weird in Sol Campbell. If there were some statistics stating that black people were applying and not even getting an interview then a Rooney Rule would be applicable - but afaik, no-one's actually conducted the aforementioned research.

I guess at the end of the day though, it can't do any harm. The fact it's positive discrimination or whatever is a stupid argument because it's a fact of society that positive discrimination is occasionally needed to counter-act discrimination (especially in certain industries - female non-execs stated in corporate governance guidelines being one to stop the usual old boys clubs).

 

[shoddycollins]

It worked in American football because... well, obviously Americans are racist... well maybe not but for it to have worked there must have meant that black coaches in America weren't getting jobs because nobody was offering them interviews.

The proportion of black managers in the league is now almost the same as the proportion of qualified managers who are black, something like 6%, so perhaps the problem is that not enough black coaches are taking their badges. Which I'm sure is probably because they presume they won't be hired, but is guaranteeing them interviews going to change that perception? Keith Curle doesn't think so, he seems to think that it'll just lead to black managers being invited to interviews up and down the country, knowing they're only there to tick a box. It might get the odd one or two a job they normally wouldn't have gotten but will it lead to long term benefits?

It costs a lot of money to go through your badges. I can totally understand why, if you were a recently retired player with some coaching experience thinking of management, and were black, this might put you off, when you're constantly hearing how unlikely it is that anyone will hire you. Perhaps Paul Ince might be prepared to pay the costs of training for some black coaches, help them get their foot on the ladder, and then when they get jobs others might follow.

Perhaps all these super-rich former Premier League footballers, regardless of race should subsidise the training for talented coaches and former lower-league players... regardless of race... just a thought. So many Premier League footballers take their badges when retired only to either turn out to be shit managers and go into punditry, or decide to go into punditry anyway because better money and less stress. Perhaps they could be put to better use subsiding those with actual talent.

 

[EricSabin]

I have a nagging thought of "Why aren't there more BEM managers/coaches about?". 1 in 4 FL players are black, surely some have tried to get into coaching etc, so why aren't they filtering through the system? They won't always be awful. Your usual candidates that bang the drum may only be doing so because they are the only BEM managers given a shot (however shit they are/were). I'm perhaps naive, the same as Murphy, surely the best candidate gets the job no matter what race they are. I know before appointing Wilder we interviewed Richard Shaw so our Chairman certainly doesn't subscribe to institutional racists monthly, but that has to be the case for every team doesn't it?!

I really don't know how to look at it, to be perfectly honest.

 

[Habbinalan]

I don't like the fact they're just applying an NFL rule to English football. In America they'd done studies which proved that black coaches were more likely to be fired and not hired too - so there was actually evidence, rather than 'not many black managers are there?'. There's also other things such as the fact coaches work their way up through position coaching and college coaching rather than the football system where you can walk into a League 1 job a week after retiring as a player.

I also question a lot of things like how many black people are even applying for positions? The same 4/5 seem to be piping up for the last 2 years and they're either proven shite managers like Ince/Barnes, under-qualified like Johnson or just plain weird in Sol Campbell. If there were some statistics stating that black people were applying and not even getting an interview then a Rooney Rule would be applicable - but afaik, no-one's actually conducted the aforementioned research.

I guess at the end of the day though, it can't do any harm. The fact it's positive discrimination or whatever is a stupid argument because it's a fact of society that positive discrimination is occasionally needed to counter-act discrimination (especially in certain industries - female non-execs stated in corporate governance guidelines being one to stop the usual old boys clubs).

I broadly agree, although I don't think they're "just applying an NFL rule". I guess the main point is that they are taking this slowly whilst doing more research. For first team coaches/ managers, it's a voluntary code that will be piloted with 5-10 Football League clubs (not Premier League managers) the season after next. Also, they seem to be addressing a lot of the issues that people are raising.

• "Work with relevant stakeholders to introduce processes aimed at identifying current BAME coaches and players with the potential and aspiration to coach in professional football. This would include the creation of a ‘ready-list’ of qualified candidates to be used by clubs when recruiting."
  
  
• "Cooperate with stakeholders to upskill potential candidates and provide suitable networking opportunities with club decision makers. "
  

 

[LordJord]

Im unsure how big an issue this is, again may fall in the naive category. I would be curious to know how many jobs someone like Eddie Newton at Chelsea has applied for as seems to have plenty of experience and cant seem to get a job, that to me seems odd. What annoys me is when you get someone like a Sol Campball type going on about it and they dont have any coaching badges or experience.

Just because you were a good player does not make you a good manager. In fact if I remember correctly Sol you walked out of Highbury at half time against West Ham after being bossed saying you were not in a fit state of mind to play. Manager of the year material right there.

 

[Stringy]

All of this is nice but how effective can it be? In America strategies such as this were used to end racial injustice yet racial injustice prevails. British society is becoming more tolerant anyway so I'm inclined to think that leaving it alone would be the best course.

 

[Trapdoor]

Also don't forget that in the US African-Americans now make up the largest percentage of the national demographic.

In the UK that same group makes up less than 2% of the population.

These two countries are nowhere near the same so comparisons between the two are frankly absurd.

 

[Glasshalffullpools]

As touched upon earlier, USA is a racist place, if not openly , but it is there ... I've been to Cleveland , Detroit and Washington amongst others , and let me tell you, the Black population has a far worse time of it

 

[iWomble]

Also don't forget that in the US African-Americans now make up the largest percentage of the national demographic.

Eh? 64% of the US population are white, 16% Hispanic and 12% Black or African American.

 

[Trapdoor]

Yeah you're right I just checked, for some reason I thought it was a lot more than that. At current rates they will become a majority in 2050.

 

[Stringy]

Also don't forget that in the US African-Americans now make up the largest percentage of the national demographic.

In the UK that same group makes up less than 2% of the population.

These two countries are nowhere near the same so comparisons between the two are frankly absurd.

Blacks don't make up the largest ethnic minority in the US.

I don't think the comparison is absurd. The US is important considering it's the most prominent example of these strategies. There are more obstacles to achieving equality than not receiving invitations to interviews. History in the US has shown this.

 

[Stringy]

Yeah you're right I just checked, for some reason I thought it was a lot more than that. At current rates they will become a majority in 2050.

When it's next door to South America?