there's an election

[Alty]

Good read, that.

Here's an idea. Hear me out to the end though. Why not just have normal politics in Northern Ireland rather than just bigoted sectarian fucks?

On the DUP more generally, the situation is quite peculiar and you need to understand the history of Northern Irish politics, particularly the evolution of party politics during the peace process.

First off, the blase comparisons between Corbyn's Sinn Fein links in the 70s and 80s with May relying on the DUP in 2017 displays a lack of understanding (or is perhaps just disingenuous). In the early days of the DUP there was a little bit of...dabbling is probably the word...in the paramilitary world by some members of the DUP. But it's never been the political wing of a paramilitary organisation and many members of the DUP have gone on record to say all forms of paramilitarism, republican and loyalist, were wrong and unjustifiable. Not something anyone in Sinn Fein has done.

Anyway, the DUP...they have a nutter wing because their origins are in Paisleyite evangelism. But there's another wing of the party - most of whom were in the more moderate UUP (who are basically remarkably similar to the Conservative Party and even used to share the whip) - who simply picked the DUP at a time when the UUP was facing accusations of 'pushover' unionism. These weren't entirely unjustified given the UUP signed the Good Friday Agreement despite there being absolutely nothing in the agreement itself demanding the IRA decommission its weapons. Arlene Foster herself as well as various other senior members of the party made the switch from the UUP to the DUP.

I don't see any risk of the DUP trying to push its social policy into the rest of the UK. Their top priorities are going to be securing the union, keeping the Irish border soft and securing some extra spending in Northern Ireland.

All that said...what a bloody terrible mess May has got herself into now. And what a dreadful way to begin Brexit negotiations. I see Hill and Timothy have resigned in order to stave off a leadership challenge. This is going to be a fascinating next few months.

 

[Alty]

You have just solved politics in Northern Ireland! Simply, our history won't allow it. We need another solution to get the NI Assembly up and running again - we are currently deadlocked and without a different system (than power sharing) or some concessions made by the DUP (preferred option), nothing will change. Pressure from the British government for DUP reform might progress the issue, marriage equality is inevitable in the developed world, the DUP needs to accept this point. An investigation into the RHI scandal is imperative - Arlene Foster is currently holding the country and its economy hostage. In time, the nationalists in the country will outnumber the unionists, the DUP would be wise to concede some civil liberties or it could get very ugly for them.

Predictions were made from the very early days that although a power-sharing arrangement was necessary in order to bring the era of violence to an end, there was a risk it would simply entrench bloc-voting and sectarian politics. Almost like administering a sort of benign apartheid. I do wonder whether that's what we're looking at now. I was quite impressed when the UUP and SDLP recently reached out to each other and tried to position themselves as willing to work with opponents in order to move Northern Ireland forward...but it seems at the first sign of trouble Northern Irish voters gravitate towards the stouter defender of their ethnic bloc.

It might be well outside the maintream but I actually think that a return to majoritarianism - underpinned by clear constitutional controls and without any risk of gerrymandering - might do Northern Ireland good. Impasse after impasse is doing nobody any good. If the Government doesn't perform it should be chucked out.

 

[Abertawe]

Now this is an official opposition http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...ech-in-challenge-to-theresa-may-a3561931.html

 

[Habbinalan]

Can wiser heads comment on the implications of "English Votes for English Laws" (EVEL) on what now seems to be a proposed coalition with the DUP.

"On 22 October 2015, the House of Commons approved Standing Order changes that gave effect to the Government’s plans to introduce 'English votes for English laws' (EVEL).


The ‘English votes for English laws’ process affects all Government bills (except for a few technical bills such as Consolidation Bills), founding resolutions for Finance Bills, and Lords Amendments and subsequent messages. It does not affect Private Members’ Bills, or bills certified as Scottish or referred to the Welsh or Northern Ireland Grand Committees..............."

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/bills/public/english-votes-for-english-laws/

It has been suggested that:

1) DUP can't vote on English laws so the majority disappears for a lot of detailed legislation (not for Brexit, Queen's Speech, etc.). Presumably the same would apply to SNP and the Scottish Tory and Labour MPs.

2) Can there be a formal coalition in the context of the NI Peace Agreement and a promise of neutrality?

3) If Govt can't pass bills, are we heading for an early vote of confidence that repeats to the point of nonsense each time DUP give their support?

Interesting times.

 

[SMH]

I'm very late on here but I'd like to vocally add my pleasure at Nick the snake losing his seat. Don't let the door hit you on the way out you traitor.

 

[HertsWolf]

From this week, the UK are adopting DUP philosophies and principles.
This will mean an end to degree courses in archaeology and prehistory as earth was formed in 4,000BC on a Tuesday. The anniversary of Creation Day will become a public holiday.

Can wiser heads comment on the implications of "English Votes for English Laws" (EVEL) on what now seems to be a proposed coalition with the DUP.

"On 22 October 2015, the House of Commons approved Standing Order changes that gave effect to the Government’s plans to introduce 'English votes for English laws' (EVEL).


The ‘English votes for English laws’ process affects all Government bills (except for a few technical bills such as Consolidation Bills), founding resolutions for Finance Bills, and Lords Amendments and subsequent messages. It does not affect Private Members’ Bills, or bills certified as Scottish or referred to the Welsh or Northern Ireland Grand Committees..............."

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/bills/public/english-votes-for-english-laws/

It has been suggested that:

1) DUP can't vote on English laws so the majority disappears for a lot of detailed legislation (not for Brexit, Queen's Speech, etc.). Presumably the same would apply to SNP and the Scottish Tory and Labour MPs.

2) Can there be a formal coalition in the context of the NI Peace Agreement and a promise of neutrality?

3) If Govt can't pass bills, are we heading for an early vote of confidence that repeats to the point of nonsense each time DUP give their support?

Interesting times.

But isn't the corollary of this that the rest of the country leaves Northern Ireland to be ruled by sectarian bigots?
Not a good time to be gay, unhappily pregnant, unemployed, poor, vulnerable, have mental illness (other than parliamentary ambitions) or desire good governance across the North channel.

 

[Alty]

Can wiser heads comment on the implications of "English Votes for English Laws" (EVEL) on what now seems to be a proposed coalition with the DUP.

"On 22 October 2015, the House of Commons approved Standing Order changes that gave effect to the Government’s plans to introduce 'English votes for English laws' (EVEL).


The ‘English votes for English laws’ process affects all Government bills (except for a few technical bills such as Consolidation Bills), founding resolutions for Finance Bills, and Lords Amendments and subsequent messages. It does not affect Private Members’ Bills, or bills certified as Scottish or referred to the Welsh or Northern Ireland Grand Committees..............."

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/bills/public/english-votes-for-english-laws/

It has been suggested that:

1) DUP can't vote on English laws so the majority disappears for a lot of detailed legislation (not for Brexit, Queen's Speech, etc.). Presumably the same would apply to SNP and the Scottish Tory and Labour MPs.

2) Can there be a formal coalition in the context of the NI Peace Agreement and a promise of neutrality?

3) If Govt can't pass bills, are we heading for an early vote of confidence that repeats to the point of nonsense each time DUP give their support?

Interesting times.

The Tories do still have a majority of English seats, I believe? So shouldn't be a problem.

Under Cameron the Tories formally joined with UUP to fight a joint election campaign. I don't think the fact the Tories have a clear view on NI's constitutional future creates any problems, really. As above, I'm increasingly of the opinion that it's the entire system and the absence of an opposition that's making NI politics so frustrating.

 

[Habbinalan]

From this week, the UK are adopting DUP philosophies and principles.
This will mean an end to degree courses in archaeology and prehistory as earth was formed in 4,000BC on a Tuesday. The anniversary of Creation Day will become a public holiday.


But isn't the corollary of this that the rest of the country leaves Northern Ireland to be ruled by sectarian bigots?
Not a good time to be gay, unhappily pregnant, unemployed, poor, vulnerable, have mental illness (other than parliamentary ambitions) or desire good governance across the North channel.

That's already happened to the poor buggers (and rest of LGBT community and those you list above). At least this development should open to wider public awareness the goings on in Irish politics and law enforcement.

 

[BeesKnees]

Corbyn spends day tending his allotment.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

I have this odd attraction to right wing asshats tbh. Renegade has tried to coach me out it before but still I persist.

Amber Rudd.

 

[Boletus Edulis]

A very dense fog has decended on the body politic - bu@@ered if I know what is happening.

Forty years of dealignment - phist
Labour unelectable - phist
Tories - natural party of Govt - phist
When the two main parties move outwards there is room for the centre - phist
Mrs May "bloody awkward" - phist
Young people don't vote, old people do - phist
Scotland is a Tory free zone - phist
It was the Sun that won it - phist
Manifestos don't matter - phist
UKIP's vote is on loan from the Tories - phist
Julian Brazier has a job for life - phist

 

[Boletus Edulis]

It has been axiomatic in British politics that Government's lose elections rather than oppositions win them, and I see no reason that this has been challenged. This may well be relevant when we have the next election.

 

[Abertawe]

The Tories are actually fucked aren't they

4 million people identify as lgbt and most people have lgbt friends & family members all of which will be disgusted at this DUP link up.

Hammond has supposedly demanded leeway on immigration numbers.

They're unable to remove May due to having nobody to replace her and doing so would incur the demand for an immediate election.

DUP manifesto is in contradiction to them on many issues including pension lock, fuel allowance and the logistics of Brexit.

They don't represent the majority and the myth that Corbyn is unelectable has been smashed. Smears can no longer gag discussions on policy.

I just don't see how they ultimately survive this. They're done.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

I just don't see how they ultimately survive this. They're done.

What do you mean by That?

 

[Abertawe]

What do you mean by That?

Stick a fork in em.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

Stick a fork in em.

Let me rephrase that.

Actually I'll just repeat the question. What do you mean by that?

 

[Abertawe]

Let me rephrase that.

Actually I'll just repeat the question. What do you mean by that?

What I said. Stop asking rubbish questions.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

You mean they won't win another election? Won't win the next election? Won't get the most votes in the next or any other? Won't run another candidate in another election? Or you mean nothing?

 

[Abertawe]

Bit rude of me to be honest. The Tories will be defeated whenever they dare call an election and they won't ever return in their current guise.

 

[nousername]

From a Scottish-Unionist perspective very happy with the result. Certainly it goes some way to reflecting the plurality of views that exist in this country and not the one-party-state it was under the SNP.

A few of the main SNP lines of attack have been effectively neutralised too; their (legitimate) argument that Scotland is unique from a Tory majority England has disappeared, along with their overwhelming majority in seats and vote share that underpinned their calls for a second referendum..

If this vote was a proxy for IndyRef2 (which for a lot of people in Scotland I think it was) then it's a resounding defeat (looking at vote share %) and a step backwards from 2014 IndyRef.

Will be interested to see where they go from here. I think they succeeded in alienating a lot of Scots with their patronising view of anyone who voted for Brexit, so I suspect they'll change their message regarding EU, now they realise their inability to use it as a wedge to divide Scotland from the UK. Not sure if they'll tone down IndyRef2 chat. It's basically their raison d'etre.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

From a Scottish-Unionist perspective very happy with the result. Certainly it goes some way to reflecting the plurality of views that exist in this country and not the one-party-state it was under the SNP.

A few of the main SNP lines of attack have been effectively neutralised too; their (legitimate) argument that Scotland is unique from a Tory majority England has disappeared, along with their overwhelming majority in seats and vote share that underpinned their calls for a second referendum..

If this vote was a proxy for IndyRef2 (which for a lot of people in Scotland I think it was) then it's a resounding defeat (looking at vote share %) and a step backwards from 2014 IndyRef.

Will be interested to see where they go from here. I think they succeeded in alienating a lot of Scots with their patronising view of anyone who voted for Brexit, so I suspect they'll change their message regarding EU, now they realise their inability to use it as a wedge to divide Scotland from the UK. Not sure if they'll tone down IndyRef2 chat. It's basically their raison d'etre.

For me personally, the continuation of the United Kingdom is more important than tribal politics and the make up of a 5 year term of Parliament (which lets face it may very well be much shorter than 5 years). To that end, regardless of what shape of government we end up with now, I was very happy with how the SNP suffered. I'm not sure how the SNP can possibly keep their IndyRef2 chatter going for the foreseeable. As you say. so many pillars of their argument have just been swept aside. It's set them back several years, as they will need to go away and formulate an entirely new and more nuanced argument than simply trying to play 'us and them' regarding Tories.

I would like to see Ruth Davidson become leader of the Tories at some point. Not only is she a very capable politician in general, and a fairly moderate Tory as they go, she'd also do a lot for furthering the unity of the UK.

 

[smat]

Shocking image of Alty captured by David Squires.

 

[Jockney]

Where's johnny and self actual eye? They banned or have they gone predictably quiet?

Fair play to Scumbag and Mark for not hiding, though I never thought they would.

 

[DarkSithLord]

Where's johnny and self actual eye? They banned or have they gone predictably quiet?

Fair play to Scumbag and Mark for not hiding, though I never thought they would.

Johnny has been banned. Not sure about Self Actual.

 

[Pagnell]

Johnny has been banned.

I wondered why this place felt considerably less cuntish.

 

[HertsWolf]

Well I feel that nice Mrs May is doing exceptionally well for someone with no discernible spine. Everyone said her lobotomy would be a huge handicap for her but, to be fair, she's been affected no more than Michael Gove was after his.

 

[Stevencc]

Where's johnny and self actual eye? They banned or have they gone predictably quiet?

Fair play to Scumbag and Mark for not hiding, though I never thought they would.

Self Actual only shows his face in the immediate aftermath of a terrorist attack perpetrated by a Muslim on European soil, give him time.

 

[T.A]

And maybe because I've banned him from replying to most threads on here.

 

[Stevencc]

He'll be crying his actual eyes out.

 

[Renegade]

And maybe because I've banned him from replying to most threads on here.

Thank you.