there's an election

[BeesKnees]

Rest of this is spot on, but I thought the proposal was to essentially sell people financial products to allow them to release equity from their house, and use that to fund social care (so funding is provided by banks, who recover their costs when people die).

All I've seen is a promise that recovery wouldn't take place until after death so hadn't appreciated this. If true then we know private finance will require a return on investment that is greater than current inflation ( or other rates of return).

Also explains the Tory defense this morning of claiming markets weren't interested in the existing proposals so they had to find something more attractive to them.

 

[RavenBish]

From being twenty points behind it's a fantastic effort. Still time yet comrade.
Stop pissing on my chips.

it's probably still 20 when you adjust for the good ol' shy tories

 

[Aber gas]

it's probably still 20 when you adjust for the good ol' shy tories

That's the spirit Bish

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Shy Toryism is actually great fun. A few weeks ago I was visited by a very nice lady from the Labour Party. The visit lasted less than a minute. I fed her a pack of pro-Corbyn lies, told her she was preaching to the converted, and she went merrily on her way. As I returned to my lair (cackling), my malevolent delight was only dampened by my regret at not thinking to do it years earlier. Get Labour nerds off the doorstep in double-quick time AND feed them misleading polling data.

 

[BeesKnees]

Shy Toryism is actually great fun. A few weeks ago I was visited by a very nice lady from the Labour Party. The visit lasted less than a minute. I fed her a pack of pro-Corbyn lies, told her she was preaching to the converted, and she went merrily on her way. As I returned to my lair (cackling), my malevolent delight was only dampened by my regret at not thinking to do it years earlier. Get Labour nerds off the doorstep in double-quick time AND feed them misleading polling data.

My mate is doing exactly the same to the Tory candidates lol.
I'm yet to have a visit from any of them.

 

[Abertawe]

Alty in being wrong shocker. Cradle to the grave healthcare should be a birthright.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Shy Toryism is actually great fun. A few weeks ago I was visited by a very nice lady from the Labour Party. The visit lasted less than a minute. I fed her a pack of pro-Corbyn lies, told her she was preaching to the converted, and she went merrily on her way. As I returned to my lair (cackling), my malevolent delight was only dampened by my regret at not thinking to do it years earlier. Get Labour nerds off the doorstep in double-quick time AND feed them misleading polling data.

This seems less shy, more evil and devious. So you've got the Tory part nailed down!!!1!

 

[Abertawe]

Fuck me you can tell the polls have narrowed, media going all out. Corbyn has IRA victims blood on his hands.

 

[.V.]

Fuck me you can tell the polls have narrowed, media going all out. Corbyn has IRA victims blood on his hands.

It'll get increasing personal as the Tories have realised they've lost the policy argument with their manifesto.

 

[Alty]

I think thinking that your home is "a high value asset" rather than a basic human need is part of the reason we're in the state we're in, where many of us have very little prospect of getting long-term housing security (either through ownership or secure tenancy). For many people inheritance is the only way they'll accrue enough capital to own a home (and their only outlet to gain that security). That's deeply unsatisfactory (thanks, 40 years of government assault on housing) but it's where we're at.

Social care should be fully funded by the state as a universal benefit and the only reason that there is a "funding crisis" is because it's been systematically defunded by the government. It's a very definite strategy on the part of the Tories to run down public services to the point of crisis and then present neoliberal reform of those services as the solution to a crisis they have caused (see what's happened to the rest of the health service). To call that process - defund, cause crisis, implement neoliberal reform - as pragmatic centrism, rather than ideologically driven vandalism - is willfully naive.

I don't think it's unreasonable to consider peoples' continuing care requirements as similar to peoples' healthcare requirements. It seems unreasonable and unfair to asset-strip people to meet those requirements. If old peoples' assets are the problem, a wealth tax or inheritance tax hike would be a much fairer way of funding care, rather than pay-by-how-sick-you-are Alzheimer's tax. History has shown that when benefits are deuniversalised, it opens the door to cutting them back or stripping them entirely and should be resisted.

If a hike in inheritance tax was a viable alternative I'd be all for it. You find a political and moral argument that sways enough people and I'll back you all the way. The problem, as I see it, is that inheritance tax is a MASSIVE vote loser and there's also the option of shifting ownership around to avoid it.

This proposal prevents people from wriggling out of making a fair contribution because their desire to stay in the house they own is the crucial element of it. As I understand it, anyway.

I agree on the wider point about how we view housing in this country but changing that would take literally decades. The bottom line is people are living longer and we need to fund social care right now.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

You find a political and moral argument that sways enough people and I'll back you all the way.

Urgh, centrism.

Social care is underfunded. The decision to underfund it was a political one. If we need to fund social care properly (and we do), fund it properly through taxation.

Forcing the burden of paying for social care onto the sick is barbarism.

 

[Alty]

Urgh, centrism.

Social care is underfunded. The decision to underfund it was a political one. If we need to fund social care properly (and we do), fund it properly through taxation.

Forcing the burden of paying for social care onto the sick is barbarism.

Is it barbarism, though? The vast majority of people agree healthcare is a right. Which is why it's free(ish) at the point of need. But those able to pay for dental care, glasses, prescription drugs etc are required to do so in order to prevent costs from spiralling. If you're a kid or you're poor then fine, pay nothing, everyone chips in to stop people falling through the net. To me this is straightforward pragmatic and progressive politics.

I'm sympathetic to the idea of universal benefits based on citizenship and solidarity. Everyone has a stake in public services and there's less stigmatisation of people. But in practice I just don't think it can work. At least in this country. The financial constraints, the fact it seems at odds with traditional British liberal values and (ducks for cover) the fact people just let you down.

To sum up - your view on all this might be very consistent. Fair play to you. But I suspect a lot of the people complaining actually want to have their cake and eat it too. Fully funded health and social care AND the right to pass on a house which has risen 400% in value to their kids. Sorry - I'm not shedding any tears for these people. It seems reasonable they should pay more.

 

[Gashead]

To sum up - your view on all this might be very consistent. Fair play to you. But I suspect a lot of the people complaining actually want to have their cake and eat it too. Fully funded health and social care AND the right to pass on a house which has risen 400% in value to their kids. Sorry - I'm not shedding any tears for these people. It seems reasonable they should pay more.

The inheritance issue is one which needs to be talked about, but like a lot of these things its probably the extreme nature of the policy which has caused the uproar. Then again, an inheritance tax policy would meet the same sort of thing I imagine. Its tough.

What does frustrate me re: the pensioners is the way in which Winter Fuel Payment removal has been presented as targetting the 'wealthiest' of pensioners. The only reference to a means test I've seen so far would mean two pensioners living together on c. £12k income between them would have the payments removed. 'Wealthiest'?

There's ways to bridge the inequalities, a race to the bottom isn't it.

 

[Stringy]

Still seems harsh to me that your children should lose the bulk of their inheritance because you are sick. And generally I am in favour of the state taxing inheritance. Surely if you require care and you watch your assets disappear then for many people that would be a heartbreaking end to a life in which they hoped to leave behind a better future for their kids.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Still seems harsh to me that your children should lose the bulk of their inheritance because you are sick. And generally I am in favour of the state taxing inheritance. Surely if you require care and you watch your assets disappear then for many people that would be a heartbreaking end to a life in which they hoped to leave behind a better future for their kids.

Imagine watching your parent suffer a slow death through Alzheimer's. Imagine doing so, and knowing that their sometimes confused and miserable existence is costing your inheritance upwards of £50k a year.

The priority for end of life care should be ensuring people live out their life as comfortably as possible. I'm not saying people would bump off their elderly parents at the first opportunity if this policy was brought in but this sort of thing does already happen and giving people a massive cash incentive to do so seems perverse.

You say "dementia tax", I say "granny murdering subsidy".

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Imagine watching your parent suffer a slow death through Alzheimer's. Imagine doing so, and knowing that their sometimes confused and miserable existence is costing your inheritance upwards of £50k a year.

Err… maybe I’m giving myself too much credit here, but if the worst case scenario was me still inheriting £100,000 worth of assets – assets I’d previously contributed the square root of fuck all towards – I think I’d probably get over it. I’d certainly think twice before calling Dignitas or pushing my senile mother down the stairs.

I genuinely don’t know if it’s the best way to meet long-term social care costs, but on the surface level the whole political row about this is so bizarre. Mrs May needlessly committing the cardinal sin of pissing off the nation's coffin dodgers. The left upset on behalf of the heirs and heiresses of the asset-rich bourgeoisie. Is that the priority now: people lucky enough to have entered the world via the vag of someone who bought a dirt-cheap house in Battersea 40 years ago?

So confused.

 

[BeesKnees]

New poll for Wales

LAB: 44% (+9)
CON: 34% (-7)
PC: 9% (-2)
LDEM: 6% (-1)
UKIP: 5% (+1)

 

[TheMinsterman]

"Strong and stable" Theresa bottles it again and backtracks on the Dementia Tax, remind me how this is the woman we are describing as a strong and stable hand in government?

 

[Aber gas]

New poll for Wales

LAB: 44% (+9)
CON: 34% (-7)
PC: 9% (-2)
LDEM: 6% (-1)
UKIP: 5% (+1)

Beat me to it BK. I can't categorically put this down to my campaigning skills but I wouldn't like to rule it out

 

[BeesKnees]

Beat me to it BK. I can't categorically put this down to my campaigning skills but I wouldn't like to rule it out

I'm more than happy to credit the improvement to your good self

Seriously this looks like the Tories have absolutely blown it. Need to see if it's reflected elsewhere.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Err… maybe I’m giving myself too much credit here, but if the worst case scenario was me still inheriting £100,000 worth of assets – assets I’d previously contributed the square root of fuck all towards – I think I’d probably get over it. I’d certainly think twice before calling Dignitas or pushing my senile mother down the stairs.

I like to think I wouldn't push at least one of my parents down the stairs for cash either. But isn't conservatism meant to be aggressively cynical about human nature?

I genuinely don’t know if it’s the best way to meet long-term social care costs, but on the surface level the whole political row about this is so bizarre. Mrs May needlessly committing the cardinal sin of pissing off the nation's coffin dodgers. The left upset on behalf of the heirs and heiresses of the asset-rich bourgeoisie. Is that the priority now: people lucky enough to have entered the world via the vag of someone who bought a dirt-cheap house in Battersea 40 years ago?

So confused.

It's the rolling back of a universal benefit I object to. We know how this happens - we've seen it enough before. First take from the more wealthy to "protect" service for the poor. Then erode the benefit from everyone else. I'd quite happily have everyone's houses off them when they die if they were made available as social housing.

I'd celebrate funding social care through a progressive inheritance tax. But this isn't that.

But I agree that it's far from the most reprehensible policy in the Conservative manifesto - torn between Voter ID laws and charging employers to hire migrant workers, and censoring the internet for that.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Theresa bottles it again and backtracks on the Dementia Tax, remind me how this is the woman we are describing as a strong and stable hand in government?

I'm beginning to wonder whether complacency and/or the shorter than usual timetable (self-imposed since they chose a snap election) has caused them to neglect certain basics, like focus grouping the bejesus out of their big ideas before announcing them.

It's piss poor.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

But isn't conservatism meant to be aggressively cynical about human nature?

When it suits us, certainly.

(Better answer may follow).

 

[Leewilson]

It's almost as if she was so confident that there was no other electable party that she's used this snap election to put a few widely unpopular widespread policies such as fox hunting etc in as it's a chance to get them through parliament.

I bloody hope they lose.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

William Hill are still offering 4/1 for Labour to retain Wrexham. if that poll is anywhere close to accurate, that's printing money.

 

[Abertawe]

It's gonna happen people.

 

[TheMinsterman]

I'm beginning to wonder whether complacency and/or the shorter than usual timetable (self-imposed since they chose a snap election) has caused them to neglect certain basics, like focus grouping the bejesus out of their big ideas before announcing them.

It's piss poor.

It is monumentally stupid. Not only is it demonstrating once again she will willingly buckle to pressure, but she's shown her hand, we've seen what sort of policies she will dream up, what's stopping her U-turning again and putting it back in as harshly as she previous desired because she's got her majority now.

Anybody who trusts Theresa May is massively naïve and extremely generous, if this was any normal election and the media were actually impartial she'd be getting eviscerated at the voting booths because she is abysmal at public speaking and answering questions, she's exceptionally robotic, she has demonstrated no strength whatsoever and has repeatedly bottled on policies on top of the fact that she has shown her rather insidious hand so we can see into the kind of priorities she actually has.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Imagine watching your parent suffer a slow death through Alzheimer's. Imagine doing so, and knowing that their sometimes confused and miserable existence is costing your inheritance upwards of £50k a year.

The priority for end of life care should be ensuring people live out their life as comfortably as possible. I'm not saying people would bump off their elderly parents at the first opportunity if this policy was brought in but this sort of thing does already happen and giving people a massive cash incentive to do so seems perverse.

You say "dementia tax", I say "granny murdering subsidy".

A bigger concern for me is what this does to older people themselves, who've worked all their lives to leave something behind when they're gone, how guilty they will feel for clinging on a little longer, being made to feel selfish for not popping their clogs sooners by the state so their kids could get a little bit more. It's disgusting. We encourage people to work hard, to contribute all their lives and now we're saying oh well, about that, we're also going to asset strip your corpse before it is even cold.

 

[Stringy]

Anyone watching Theresa on the BBC right now? She can barely answer a question.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

More WEAK AND WOBBLY than strong and stable, eh