Three Up, Three Down?

[Gassy]

Or maybe you could do what they do in Scotland, so 1st and 2nd would go up automatically, and then 3-5th joins the side finishing 22nd in league 2 in the playoffs.

There certainly should be some greater flexibility than there is now between the leagues.

I much prefer this idea. The top 2 go up (and deservedly so) and the others have 1 game to sort it out. If this game is at Wembley it helps Wembley get their money whilst allowing some teams a chance at going to Wembley which with all the TV rights etc, could be a huge pay day.

Everyone's a winner right?!

In general on the conference, the standard of the top 8 is more than capable of finishing midtable in L2. Im actually surprised to say that conference teams actually try to play better football, they pass it about much much more. L2 was a lot more oh a physical game, which, if you get it right down here, you could fly in L2. Hence Luton.

 

[Crewelad87]

The more promotion spots in non league the more heavily backed tin pot teams will appear imo. As it stands there is more risk involved, open up another promotion place and the risk of throwing money about without getting promoted decreases.

I say leave it, as the Grimsby fan says, if as a decent size club goes down, they have been run poorly and deserve to struggle for a few years.

 

[Arbury]

3u3d for me and I think it's got to happen sooner rather than later.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

I am now 100% for 3-up and 3-down I was ever since our season in the conference when you find that league is full of some pretty well run set-ups and its why we've now got the likes of Stevenage, Dagenham, morecambe and co in the FL.

I could understand the prestige aspect of the FL afew years ago when the conference seemed full of part-timers with some clubs getting 500 odd fans, grounds that would fail being allowed at this level and it not really being that well run a league.

but thesedays it is really just another league, is some clubs in it now bigger than L2 sides, I'd think nearly all of them have grounds allowed at L2 level, the league is shown on TV, it is well run.

it would then help reduce these clubs losing hundreds of thousands trying to break through a near impossible door to get back into the FL. Plus I think if 3 can go back up you'll find relegation from L2 isn't the financial end of world we've had since I started watching Carlisle.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

Or maybe you could do what they do in Scotland, so 1st and 2nd would go up automatically, and then 3-5th joins the side finishing 22nd in league 2 in the playoffs.

There certainly should be some greater flexibility than there is now between the leagues.

that is actually a very good idea.

then if you finish 3rd bottom and go down you failed at 2 attempts to survive and deserve it.

 

[northstandexile]

Now we are back up the trap door should be permanently closed and keep everyone down there.

 

[BelizeHatter]

Hey SonofCod. Pull your bloody

that is actually a very good idea.

then if you finish 3rd bottom and go down you failed at 2 attempts to survive and deserve it.

If you finish 3rd Bottom you deserve it.

 

[Dan_Macclad]

No for me, the standard of the conference is dog shit.. We are 3rd but would get our arses kicked in league two.

 

[Boz]

Don't have strong feelings either way. I do like the Scots idea though, think the play-off system in England initially involved one of the sides in a 'relegation' position being involved in the mix.
Also, there was a season or two where the top conference sides played in the JPT, which made for a bit more variety.

 

[BelizeHatter]

So if you win the League (or go up via Play Offs) you don't deserve the right to try your hand because this year it's a shit League? The last four or five were a good enough standard the top 6 or so were capable of being competitive in League 2.

 

[Dan_Macclad]

The point being, the conference is not strong enough to warrant 3 promotion places. Anyone who goes up with the current setup deserve promotion, but we certainly would struggle to be strong in league two.

 

[That Fat Centre Half]

No for me, the standard of the conference is dog shit.. We are 3rd but would get our arses kicked in league two.

From what I have seen this league isn't any better. We've been the shadow of the side we were last season and to be honest served up pretty shit football with an injury depleted side and are still right up there. Been very unimpressed with be quality of football in this league this year so far.

 

[Pliny Harris]

Aye let's have three up three down, why not. Those seasons when you get Fleetwood or Crawley putting a million or two on championship leaves four places maximum for sincere clubs. With those two examples the league seemed all but wrapped up a few months in each time due to a sugar daddy really going for it, and this always happens in one non-league division or another, every season. Currently Flyde are doing it in the Conference North, for example. Add another automatic promotion place and it could provide momentum for some very good sides that don't quite make it before splitting up in close season: another thing you see with two-up (although not really negotiable below Step 1 where the leagues branch).

It'd be interesting to see a few league/non-league "yoyo" sides appear in the ensuing years as I've seen Wycombe, Peterborough and WBA do over recent years in their respective leagues. There seems to be a belief to a few on here that there's some sort of alchemy that makes the league/non-league gap special but on the contrary, I feel newly promoted sides in the fourth tier tend to fare very well in the league above, while no-one's dropped from League 2 to Step 2 over two seasons yet. Many big teams struggle to find their feet in the Conference too, mainly due to financial woes and nutty owners. That makes me think poor clubs are still being "punished" on the whole, just as I see at Portsmouth, Plymouth, Coventry and until recently Bratfud City.

In all, it won't do any harm that I can name. The worries people have seem to have equal and opposite positives. What 3U3D would do is add more spice to it, and maybe more of you need an away day on some hard standing in a three-figure crowd than you think!

 

[Laker]

3 up 3 down definitely. The Conference is a national league like the leagues above and is only really not part of the football league due to name and history. The majority of clubs are full time, it's a solid league.

A couple of points made by others which I disagree with:
- DaveCUFC said the Conference is a well run league. It's really not, believe me it's a farce half the time.
- There is a larger gap between the Conference and League 2 than some admit to, particularly defensively and tactically.

 

[Son of Cod]

Hey SonofCod. Pull your bloody

Eh? Good to see the Luton fans are still as articulate as always. :tomf:

 

[AdamStag]

I guess the big difference is, there isn't any "easy" games.

When we won the conference, the points we picked up against the bottom sides was almost 100% - I hate using us in this context, but us in 18th have beaten 3 of the sides in the play-offs this season, that doesn't tend to happen in the conference.

That said, I think if we ever went back down to that godawful cesspit the side we have now would struggle, no doubt. There is no difference between the top 10 of the conference and the bottom 10 of league 2 and therefore it should be warrented - yes, there are the likes of village sides with no fans like Fleetwood and Crawley who have came up, but at the same stage that a) shouldn't detract from other clubs being given a fairer crack of being promoted and b) should be a matter for the conference to look into to ensure fair play.

 

[AdamStag]

3 up 3 down definitely. The Conference is a national league like the leagues above and is only really not part of the football league due to name and history. The majority of clubs are full time, it's a solid league.

A couple of points made by others which I disagree with:
- DaveCUFC said the Conference is a well run league. It's really not, believe me it's a farce half the time.
- There is a larger gap between the Conference and League 2 than some admit to, particularly defensively and tactically.

Agreed on how it is ran, the conference is a complete shambles, maybe there might be some improvement now Barwick is involved.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

See I disagree with you guys on how the conference is run......the conference gets a bad reputation because it does the one thing the FL doesn't..............try to control its teams.

the FL is the shambles and it always has been............its entire view is to 'turn a blind eye' if they do not act maybe it will all go away.

they only ever bothered their backsides to act on a handful of extreme occasions which has meant numerous clubs diving into horrendous problems, its been full of corrupt chairmen for years, fans get treated like sh*te, teams go into horrendous debts, etc, etc.

Conf isn't perfect, but they at least do not bat an eyelid at removing clubs if they frankly have ran themselves into the ground and afew clubs have benefitted longer term from that....like Halifax, Chester, Darlington.

it isn't perfect and still has a lot of problems but the FL is a much much worse run shower of crap because for the 25 years I've been going they try and enforce absolutely nothing.

and I still don't know why they had that 2-3 year period when for once they did.

A lot of teams head into conference with a lot of problems inherited because the FL did nothing to Act soon enough to stop them happening

 

[Luke Imp]

Both the FL and Conference teams try to control their teams but they do it in different ways.

In the FL, there's a wage cap (60% still?), which, yes, you can get around. But the FL fanny about when it goes tits up.

In the Conference, there's no wage cap (which is why you get FGR paying out £3k/week deals on crowds of 800, then you've also got Easteligh, Barrow, Flyde, North Ferriby and others who struggle to get above 1k attendances, or even above 500) but they'll generally just remove you straight away when it goes wrong.

It's not a well run league either. It's amateur at times. Like having one home league game in 8 weeks like we did two seasons ago. Or like us this season, going from FGR to Gateshead, to Eastleigh in a week. Cancelling league games because of FA Trophy games (basically the non-league JPT).

The main problem in the Conference is that you get money teams coming up (they'll probably be another two or three next season) and the teams who come down struggle to adapt to the financial difference. To put it into perspective, while you lot bank £750k plus youth funding or whatever it is, Conference teams get about £50k with no youth funding. There's always the two extremes. Few Clubs fall into that middle, sound category.

The financial gap, and I've not checked this, is probably PL to Championship, if not worse. Just minus any half decent parachute payments on relegation. The FL just wash their hands of you as soon as you're relegated. That gap is also the reason why so many Clubs push the boat out. Crawley, Fleetwood, Mansfield, Newport, York etc. It's a risk Clubs are wiling to take but not necessarily something they can sustain doing for 2, 3, 4 years in a row.

3 up 3 down definitely. The Conference is a national league like the leagues above and is only really not part of the football league due to name and history. The majority of clubs are full time, it's a solid league.

A couple of points made by others which I disagree with:
- DaveCUFC said the Conference is a well run league. It's really not, believe me it's a farce half the time.
- There is a larger gap between the Conference and League 2 than some admit to, particularly defensively and tactically.

It's about 50/50.

11 PT teams, I think, although no 'proper' PT teams i.e. train two evenings like Hyde last season. There are quite a few stuck between the two.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

The financial gap is the biggest blow, but I suppose the money has to stop somewhere and won't keep drifting down levels.

but I think that is also why it is needed to have a bigger promotion/relegation access as this will allow teams to progress on minimal spending to get a better chance, otherwise as you say its reduced to them money men teams who spend their way through.

although I never understand these money men at the real smaller teams they must never break even ever.

 

[AdamStag]

I don't think there should be such a big gap between any leagues.

What is the parachute payment you get for going down? I thought you got it for 2 seasons

 

[Vanni]

The point being, the conference is not strong enough to warrant 3 promotion places. Anyone who goes up with the current setup deserve promotion, but we certainly would struggle to be strong in league two.

But all promoted sides bring in new players in the summer. I can't think of a single club who didn't reinforce their squad after winning promotion. Some only bring in a couple and then see in January if they need to add more, and some change nearly 3/4 of their starting 11,

Not saying there's no difference between League 2 and the conf, because there is, but the really big difference is between Lg1 and Lg2.

 

[Luke Imp]

I don't think there should be such a big gap between any leagues.

What is the parachute payment you get for going down? I thought you got it for 2 seasons

You do, but can't recall exactly what it is. £200k first year, £100k second year then nothing? Not 100% sure. That's obviously before taking into account lower attendances, merchandise, sponsorship, catering etc.

 

[AdamStag]

You do, but can't recall exactly what it is. £200k first year, £100k second year then nothing? Not 100% sure. That's obviously before taking into account lower attendances, merchandise, sponsorship, catering etc.

Lower attendances certainly, our last 2 games have been 4,600 and 3,000 but Northampton managed 1,300 and Luton 800 - you just don't get those in the conference

 

[Kim Mitten]

It's not a well run league either. It's amateur at times. Like having one home league game in 8 weeks like we did two seasons ago. Or like us this season, going from FGR to Gateshead, to Eastleigh in a week. Cancelling league games because of FA Trophy games (basically the non-league JPT).

Just picking up on this point, it is meant to be amateur - and this is where the current problem lies, the top tier of non-league, has, in quite a short time span, gone from part time teams playing in front of gates of 1,000, if they were lucky. To being a mainly professional league with the top end teams pulling in gates that don't look out of place at the bottom end of the third tier and scores more money all over the place.
As with most draconian organisations of football in this country the Conference board just don't seemed to have caught up. A lot of this problem has stemmed from people chucking money at the likes of Crawley and Fleetwood and seeing those clubs, whose traditional level is about step 7, being replaced with the likes of Grimsby and Bristol Rovers.

If things continue, with the likes of Forest Green and Eastleigh possibly the next to join the 'promised land', then really the current Conference should be incorporated into the football league as it's clubs are being run in a much more professional manner than the board who runs the entire system have ever managed.
I do like the fact that the Conference is very European in its handling of 'mis-run' clubs though, trips to court for money issues tend to get for chucked out on your ear. As a Southend fan, whose club has been in numerous financial problems over the past 20 years, I'd welcome that stance from the FL - even though if they had adopted the same rules Southend would have long been plying their trade at the Isthmian level.

Reading through this I think the best suggestion is another that we should take from the lower leagues (and some upper) of mainland European football - add the 3rd bottom team to the playoffs of the division below. 1st and 2nd in the Conference go up automatically then 3rd, 4th, 5th and 22nd from L2 are the playoff teams. I wouldn't do it the Socttish way and have the 22nd team have to play just once in a final. They should have to play the 5th place team. I would then however have the final played at the highest remaining clubs home ground.

 

[Dan_Macclad]

But all promoted sides bring in new players in the summer. I can't think of a single club who didn't reinforce their squad after winning promotion. Some only bring in a couple and then see in January if they need to add more, and some change nearly 3/4 of their starting 11,

Not saying there's no difference between League 2 and the conf, because there is, but the really big difference is between Lg1 and Lg2.

For us it's finances, our budget is minuscule as it is, strengthening to build a decent league two side would be very difficult.

 

[AdamStag]

For us it's finances, our budget is minuscule as it is, strengthening to build a decent league two side would be very difficult.

Why though? you'd get another £750k to start with.

If Accrington and Dagenham can do it, there is no reason why you couldn't. Infact you did it very well apart from 1 disastrous season which took you down.

 

[BelizeHatter]

You got those crowds and higher and we took that an

For us it's finances, our budget is minuscule as it is, strengthening to build a decent league two side would be very difficult.

Plus if you're good enough to go up you have a fighting chance to stay up with the same squad. The Top Conf teams are no worse than the bottom L2 teams.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Completely in favour of this and also in favour of improved regulation in the Conference finance wise. Felt sorry for Wrexham a few years back when they had a 98 point season, were denied the title by a heavily funded Fleetwood side and still didn't go up whereas a godawful Barnet side stayed up in 22nd for the third consecutive year.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Completely in favour of this and also in favour of improved regulation in the Conference finance wise. Felt sorry for Wrexham a few years back when they had a 98 point season, were denied the title by a heavily funded Fleetwood side and still didn't go up whereas a godawful Barnet side stayed up in 22nd for the third consecutive year.

Yeah, we ended that season on 89 and I think the following year Kidderminster passed 90 points and finished 2nd!