Stickied Transfer Rumours 2018/19

[Stevencc]

Herrera is a good central midfielder, Kanté is the best ball winner in the league by a country mile. Sorry, but the distance between Herrera and Kanté is huge, especially defensively. Herrera is a good central midfielder and criminally underrated by many but he's nowhere near Kanté. Which is more of a compliment to Kanté than anything else.

Kante gets all the plaudits but it's not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it seem here. The gap between their abilities isn't "huge".

Herrera has actually been a bit of a revelation (defensively speaking) under Mourinho.

Some relevant stats someone posted on another forum earlier today...

 

[Relentless]

Kante gets all the plaudits but it's not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it seem here. The gap between their abilities isn't "huge".

Herrera has actually been a bit of a revelation (defensively speaking) under Mourinho.

Some relevant stats someone posted on another forum earlier today...

Stats? Fucking wannabe Arsenal fan

 

[Bilo]

/snip

Well, if Kanté was a player whose ability could be defined in the numbers then he wouldn't have been at Caen two seasons ago. Other people keep an eye on those things, you know.

It's almost like you have to watch the two to see that there are miles between them.

 

[Stevencc]

Well, if Kanté was a player whose ability could be defined in the numbers then he wouldn't have been at Caen two seasons ago. Other people keep an eye on those things, you know.

It's almost like you have to watch the two to see that there are miles between them.

How many times did you watch Herrera in the season just gone?

It's almost like you didn't watch him at all and assumed he was just the same run of the mill Spanish playmaker with little defensive ability. Mourinho completely transformed his game last season it sounds a little like you are attempting to compare Kante to an outdated version of Herrera from years back that was actually a totally different player.

Kante is the darling of the Sky pundits and he deserves a lot of praise for winning back to back titles as a key member of two different squads in that time but this notion that no one can hold a candle to him is crap.

Plus, if you are going to say that there is a huge gulf between two players in terms of a specific side of their game (you specific defensive) then a few defensive stats that show some vital skills in that area of the game (interceptions, tackles) are relevant to the discussion, regardless of how much you attempt to deride someone for including them in the debate. They aren't the be all and end all, of course, otherwise we'd just play football manager and be done with it.

 

[Bilo]

I watched Herrera between 10 and 20 times I imagine, hard to gauge but somewhere in between. I know him well as a player and nobody is claiming he has no defensive ability, he certainly does (and he did so before Mourinho).

He has improved and he's a good player, he's useful both ways, his positional play is very good and his pressing excellent, by far the most intelligent central midfielder you have. His role at times does him no favors, as he's not the main man defensively or offensively in midfield but he's very useful. I rate him. Just not next to Kanté.

Kanté literally transforms any midfield he's put into. He covers space you'd expect two midfielders to cover in many sides, and I mean that literally. When Chelsea were caught out with four at the back last season it was as good as almost any five at the back combination you can have in the league. His positional play is next to none in the world which means that any side he's put into will be significantly less likely to ever concede counter attack goals. He's what we're lacking, he's what you're lacking and he's pretty much what most teams are lacking when you ask yourself "what could he do for our midfield?".

And no, defensive stats can't be used the way you use them. They're useful in many ways, but that's mostly offensively. Because defensive stats are so incredibly based on how the team plays and performs on average that you really, really shouldn't compare two players from different teams next to each other. For example, I'm sure a prime Cattermole betters the numbers of both Kanté and Herrera. It's the same with goalkeeper stats.

Now with this being so widely available people use it anyhow, thinking it's new and fresh not realizing that they show a much stronger correlation to how the team is playing rather than how player is in fact performing. A defensive midfielder in a relegation side will have much better defensive numbers than a defensive midfielder for the title challengers.

So no, Herrera is a good player and I know from having watched him a lot. Kanté is pretty much the best defensive midfielder in the world in my opinion. That's a country mile in my book.

 

[Stevencc]

I agree with you that Kante is the better of the two, I was disagreeing (and still am) with your assessment of the gap between them.

"What could he do for our midfield"? He could do what Herrera does to a higher standard, but not to a standard high enough for me to wish we had Kante instead. Herrera does all the buzzing around, nuisance shit for us already. What we are missing is a dedicated sitter with a physical presence and the discipline to leave the attacks to Pogba, Herrera (to a lesser extent) and our forwards. That's why I'm so excited about the prospect of Matic because he's so clearly what our midfield has been crying out for.

Do you reckon Kante is "pretty much" the best defensive midfielder in the world or would you actually commit to saying that he is the best? It's an interesting debate and I'm not sure quite where I stand on it. Is Busquets still considered to be amongst the crème de la crème?

Lucas Lei...sorry, I don't know what came over me.

 

[mistermagic]

Surely Lacazette would want to make his mark in CL after seeing the rise of Mbappe. No guarantee Arsenal will make CL next season either with the future of Sanchez still up in the air.

My point being he knows his international career hasn't kicked off and probably never will so he won't be too distraught not to be in Russia. One season without the CL won't kill him.

 

[epic73]

Do you reckon Kante is "pretty much" the best defensive midfielder in the world or would you actually commit to saying that he is the best? It's an interesting debate and I'm not sure quite where I stand on it. Is Busquets still considered to be amongst the crème de la crème?

I think Kante is the best. I can't think of anyone close to him. Busquets maybe.
Another question: Kante or Pogba?

 

[JimJams]

To do what?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

People are massively overrating Kante. When France played Spain Busquets made him look like an amateur. He might be the best at what he does - run like fuck and break up play - but no way does he deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the best CMs out there.

 

[JimJams]

He does. The thing with Kante is he literally is like 2 players in the middle, so when France, and Chelsea at the start of the season play with 3 cms it totally ruins his game. Having less to do is a big deriment to the quality he brings.
I did say in the Chelsea match threads at the start of the season that I'll be pissed if Conte wastes Kante by playing 3 in the centre of the pitch as that's what he was doing. It soon changed. He looked a mess when Arsenal dicked them 3-0 early in the season. In the mid that day he started alongside Matic and Fabregas. He just doesnt suit a 3 man mid. Busquets wouldn't last in a 2 man mid.
In the Spain game (you mean the friendly?) Kante was partnered up with Rabiot and Tolisso. 3 man mid...

 

[epic73]

To do what?

Play central midfield.

 

[JimJams]

Kante has nothing on Pogba in an attacking sense. And Kante is the better defensive player. Though you'd expect that Pogba could deliver in a defensive capacity far better than Kante in an attacking one if they were to perform eachothers roles.

 

[Bilo]

Do you reckon Kante is "pretty much" the best defensive midfielder in the world or would you actually commit to saying that he is the best? It's an interesting debate and I'm not sure quite where I stand on it. Is Busquets still considered to be amongst the crème de la crème?

Shit post mate you're wrong but to touch on this interesting point:

I feel that DM is just too specialized to really say outright "best in the world". Like, Busquets is miles ahead of Kanté in a ball retention system. You split your centre backs in the buildup, who would you rather have coming down, Busquets or Kanté? It's not even almost up for debate. But then again, you're likely to concede a lot of possession (i.e you're not Barcelona) away to Bayern or Real Madrid, who would you rather have sitting, Kanté or Busquets? It's not really up for debate either.

Then you of course have DM's perfect for the double pivot but not at all as strong as an outright six such as Khedira. It's just too specialized to say best in the world, Kanté isn't better than Busquets and Busquets isn't better than Kanté. And while it's between the two I'm not sure Real would pick either over Casemiro.

 

[Stevencc]

Shit post mate you're wrong but to touch on this interesting point:

I feel that DM is just too specialized to really say outright "best in the world". Like, Busquets is miles ahead of Kanté in a ball retention system. You split your centre backs in the buildup, who would you rather have coming down, Busquets or Kanté? It's not even almost up for debate. But then again, you're likely to concede a lot of possession (i.e you're not Barcelona) away to Bayern or Real Madrid, who would you rather have sitting, Kanté or Busquets? It's not really up for debate either.

Then you of course have DM's perfect for the double pivot but not at all as strong as an outright six such as Khedira. It's just too specialized to say best in the world, Kanté isn't better than Busquets and Busquets isn't better than Kanté. And while it's between the two I'm not sure Real would pick either over Casemiro.

Fucking shit post mate but thanks for elaborating.

 

[Renegade]

Herrera is a good central midfielder, Kanté is the best ball winner in the league by a country mile. Sorry, but the distance between Herrera and Kanté is huge, especially defensively. Herrera is a good central midfielder and criminally underrated by many but he's nowhere near Kanté. Which is more of a compliment to Kanté than anything else.

As Steven has argued the case for me, I don't think the difference is as wide as you make out and I'm a Kanté fanboy. It wasn't even the crux of my point however, I was more referring that blocking up central midfield with a great defensive midfielder (Matic) and a very good one (Herrera) isn't much less formidable than getting through two great ones. Just blocking up the centre of the pitch with that much talent instantly makes United a much more daunting prospect next year. Will there be a stronger midfield partnership in the league next year? No one came even close to Chelsea in that respect last year and now they are losing half of that unit. The physicality of a Pogba, Herrera and Matic midfield is going to be hard for anyone to deal with, though it puts more onus on Pogba to provide flair.

 

[Super_horns]

Looks like we are after Markovic.

We haven't really played with wingers in recent seasons so might be a change to see somebody out wide with some skill and pace.

Seems Liverpool will take 8-10 million in a reduced deal.

 

[Gilly?]

Markovic has a lot to offer, he looked decent enough at Hull I thought. I think he just needs the kind of manager who'll put his arm round him.

 

[Bilo]

He didn't show any skill at all while here. Or much pace for that matter. He's really, really poor.

 

[HarvSFC]

Two very contrasting views.

 

[HarvSFC]

As for Saints, we're signing the Polish Under-21s centre-back who got sent off and gave away a penalty against England. Yay.

 

[SALTIRE]

Markovic will go for about £12 mill just to get him off the books.

 

[epic73]

got sent off and gave away a penalty

Simultaneously?

 

[HarvSFC]

Simultaneously?

Yeah, booked on the 79th minute, gave away a penalty and received his second booking three minutes later.

 

[Stevencc]

Markovic will go for about £12 mill just to get him off the books.

Not quite the "Serbian Messi" he was cracked up to be, eh?

 

[Super_horns]

Well we have to see - of course our expectations of players will be slightly different to Liverpool's!

Didn't Rodgers sign the bloke so no doubt gave him lots of hype?

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Remember seeing Markovic line up for Liverpool at Dean Court whilst we were in the Championship for a cup game, he looked bloody good. Scored a goal and ran things from a central position (not the wing) IIRC. Most of our side that he dominated then, remains the same now and is comfortable at this level, he should be able to do a good job for someone around our level.

 

[Bilo]

Well we have to see - of course our expectations of players will be slightly different to Liverpool's!

Didn't Rodgers sign the bloke so no doubt gave him lots of hype?

Remember seeing Markovic line up for Liverpool at Dean Court whilst we were in the Championship for a cup game, he looked bloody good. Scored a goal and ran things from a central position (not the wing) IIRC. Most of our side that he dominated then, remains the same now and is comfortable at this level, he should be able to do a good job for someone around our level.

Yeah, he could still do well for Watford I guess but he just seems so very weak mentally. He played many games for us when you just genuinely forgot he was playing for the full 90 minutes.

 

[SALTIRE]

Not quite the "Serbian Messi" he was cracked up to be, eh?

You never heard that one from me. Such a poor signing.

 

[epic73]

Not quite the "Serbian Messi" he was cracked up to be, eh?

Well, people call Wes Hooligan the Irish Messi and he rarely starts so it depends on your definition of Messi.