Welcome/Welcome Back - **A Personal Message**

[Destruction]

WHAT.

 

[JoeJoeJoeJoe]

Villaboy face turn?

 

[Jockney]

Ok, I will say a few things from my perspective, from my point of view.

Tom was the only Admin with the power to turn the board off. He hosted the site and had the delete button. LF was at the Football, Woody was offline, and Villaboy didn't have the permissions to turn it off nor did he instruct anyone. Only Tom did, someone pressed his buttons, and he hit self destruct. Tom never said anything to them or even said Goodbye. LF, Woody and Villaboy were all trying behind the scenes to bring TFF back. It had to be done quietly. The Admin all had different views, same as the Mods (most of which are all here).

I will go into a little bit about Modding.
1. You can never please everyone
2. Most stuff 95% of the time, apart from spam, was reports sent it. Reports were treated confidential, and any member warned etc was PM'd and told about it, not in public.
3. How would you feel if you were suspended/warned, and Admin posted all the reasons on the open board. You wouldn't be best pleased. If it was me, I would be pissed off.
4. Most offensive posts and insults used to get deleted rather quick. When said member was warned/suspensed, nobody knew the offence, we kept it secret, as put in point 3.
5. Only Admin could ban a member, we didn't have that power.

I made mistakes, I am human, but I needed to get that off my chest.

Admin kept stuff secret. For reasons above, sometimes you have to. The reasons why the Admin lied about the upgrade stuff, is because they were trying to save it from shutting down. They were trying to persuade Tom to keep it going or find a way of transferring the hosting, without having to announce it and it would end up as an upgrade via a transfer, and none would be the wiser

If they did announce it when it was being discussed, then members would of left and set up their own forum (no offence to TB and Saddlerrad), when at the time, none of that would have been necessary.

I can see both sides of it, I know people were frustrated, but sometimes you have to take a step back, breath, and think

This is the last I will comment on the subject.

People were annoyed that members were being banned outright for not being totally reverential, not that people were being banned in general. Not even because there wasn't transparency: we might not have had proof, but we had enough evidence to suspect what was going on.

You say that most admin were against the decision and were just scared to voice their opinion, but why does everything admin have come out and said since completely contradict that? Why was no-one at any point brave enough to tell Tom how they really felt?

 

[Destruction]

I will miss Pagnell like a Dad must miss a child that he has played with for years, before he finally grows up and leaves home to go out into the big wide world by himself.

Good luck Pags.

 

[Jockney]

In a bizarre irony, the admin who was involved in the start of this debacle came out of it OK: Pagnell. He was a dour fucker, but at least he was straight up and didn't bullshit anyone. He never stooped so low as to blame the members for the situation, either. At least not publically.

I think that speaks volumes. He copped a fair bit of flak from people at times, too, but took it with a grain of salt. I've got a theory here, and stop me if this sounds stupid, but could that be because he was the only admin that actually used the forum regularly towards the end and wasn't completely detached from its membership base?

 

[Cardsfan]

I liked Pagnell,calthough his dictatorial style "my opinion is always right" was fucking annoying at times

 

[Renegade]

They make it sound like such a chore, like a genuine crutch on their lives. Apart from TomF, who appeared to have done all the technical stuff for the last 10+ years, a guy who put in a lot of genuine effort, it doesn't take that much energy to be an administrator on a football forum when it's already been established.

You ungrateful so and sos, too much to cope with, yadda yadda yadda, the only one who can feel a little aggrieved that he wasn't respected enough is TomF - probably an unpopular opinion on here because he pulled the plug - but the others can fuck off. If they hadn't have been the non-technical admins, there are literally hundreds of posters on here who could have done the same job.

And yeah, Pagnell was a'ight.

 

[Lord Football]

The real Lord Football, not the imitation one.

Cor, this is a hot bed of love isn't it? At the end of the day it was a football forum on the internet. It becomes dangerous when it becomes THAT important (and trust me, I know). Its nice to know people are so quick and keen to stick a knife in your back.

Were Admin to blame for the death of TFF. Yeah, I'd take some of the responsibility. Some things could have been handled better. But if you continue to piss in your own bed, at some point you need to sleep in it. Paggers aside, Tom was the only one who was there all the time and, I think it became a burden he didn't want. Particularly when it starts getting personal.

Was there an upgrade due that wasn't compatible with the Shoutbox? Yes. Sorry, but that is the truth. I have a view that it was the complexity of installing it that was the catalyst for the decision to shut.

"The host company pulled the plug" It is the only explanation I can give. I don't know if Tom pulled it or Craig pulled it. I don't know whether the ULR is still owned. I know as much as you, and found out that the same time as you. I do know a couple of posts caused offence. No names, no point.

Could TFF have been saved? I always thought it could. Woody and I had a plan. Sadly, it never got past a FB convo on Friday night. It was probably a bad plan, but we will never know. It didn't involve us running the board.

I think I've covered the points I can. Others may have a different view.

And that, from my perspective, is that. Enjoy what you have here

 

[TomPNE94]

I do feel a little bit of sympathy for the admins because no matter how it ended, they did put a lot of time into it (mainly TomF) and it did seem a bit of a thankless task I'm sure.

That is absolutely no excuse for the cuntish behaviour some of them displayed for the last 6 months though. Banning Carel and SoC and many others for the most minor things were completely OTT.

I'm not gonna say anymore apart from I absolutely loved that forum and I'm gutted it's been shut down. But the early signs are that this is gonna be even better.

Onwards and upwards, let's all move on.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Rich obviously knows a little bit more about the ins and outs than I do, all I saw in the Mod Café was a thread confirming the closure, then I went out to work and woke up the next day to find the site completely gone, I have absolutely no idea what on earth happened and it is disappointing to find out (like everybody else) how everything ended. It would have been much better if the whole community got to make a decision about whether to migrate here full in the knowledge it existed rather than logging in to find blank space and even the social network accounts deleted, I'd have probably struggled to find this place if I hadn't been logged on at the right time.

Rich is right, modding etc can be a thankless task, I know I always preferred to warn people in private and give them a last chance before doing anything, but you're always going to be the bad guy in somebody's eyes no matter what you do.

I aren't going to rip on anybody specifically, that isn't my place at all (plus I really don't have a personal problem with anybody anyway), it's just a shame and I do wish whoever ends up making the staff up here the best of luck, it can be hard sometimes like Rich said but, the community for the whole made it worth while.

 

[TomPNE94]

And on a sidenote, I wouldn't mind if they signed up and posted. Live and let live and all that shite.

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

Villaboy did send this to me on the day it shut

"Been there over 13 years mate. It kept me sane whilst serving in Iraq and Afghanistan"

He was genuinely upset when he spoke to me on Saturday. Me and Villaboy are both/were in the Millitary (VB is now retired), so we have an understanding and mutual respect. We have both been Out of Area on Operations, and forums like TFF and this were a lifesaver for our morale. He is an ex high ranker, has been there, done it and wore the T-Shirt. I spent my time in a Commcen on TFF on nights shifts posting away

When people are pissed off, they often say things that they don't really mean in anger. That is exactly what he did. He lost his temper

It was a big part of his life. He was made to promise to keep it secret, so were the others. Unless you really know him, you wouldn't understand

 

[Jockney]

The real Lord Football, not the imitation one.

Cor, this is a hot bed of love isn't it? At the end of the day it was a football forum on the internet. It becomes dangerous when it becomes THAT important (and trust me, I know). Its nice to know people are so quick and keen to stick a knife in your back.

Were Admin to blame for the death of TFF. Yeah, I'd take some of the responsibility. Some things could have been handled better. But if you continue to piss in your own bed, at some point you need to sleep in it. Paggers aside, Tom was the only one who was there all the time and, I think it became a burden he didn't want. Particularly when it starts getting personal.

Was there an upgrade due that wasn't compatible with the Shoutbox? Yes. Sorry, but that is the truth. I have a view that it was the complexity of installing it that was the catalyst for the decision to shut.

"The host company pulled the plug" It is the only explanation I can give. I don't know if Tom pulled it or Craig pulled it. I don't know whether the ULR is still owned. I know as much as you, and found out that the same time as you. I do know a couple of posts caused offence. No names, no point.

Could TFF have been saved? I always thought it could. Woody and I had a plan. Sadly, it never got past a FB convo on Friday night. It was probably a bad plan, but we will never know. It didn't involve us running the board.

I think I've covered the points I can. Others may have a different view.

And that, from my perspective, is that. Enjoy what you have here

We're doomed to go round in circles, but to address something that hasn't been discussed yet: how was the most recent 'disrespect' different from the garden variety disrespect that comes with the job? I had seen much worse directed at admin in those preceding years. Tom was no stranger to the other side of that coin, either, and has engaged in some pretty off-colour wind-ups and attacks himself over the course of TFF's history. It was part and parcel of the forum when I joined up. But then it was OK to torture members, as you and others did to me, Max and Renegade, and attack other forums in the name of 'good fun', back in the early days. You could take it just as well as you could dish it out back then. Maybe it stopped being as much fun once the good ol' boys had departed?

Edit: then again, those moral double standards are nothing new. I can remember on one occasion you having to talk Tom down from banning me and a few others for a (fucking hilarious) prank we pulled on Denilson when I was 17.

 

[Rammy]

For me Pags, LF, VB, and Woody are more than welcome here.

Yes, they knew ahead of us, and might have known for quite a while but they would have been under instruction by those who own it to keep quiet. Hell, they didn't even do that. One of them posted "RIP TFF" on Twitter, and then LF posted a TFF status. Almost as if they wanted people to start questioning things and try and change Tom or Craig's mind.

I didn't see what was said on Saturday, but I don't see how any of this is their fault.

EDIT: the lack of communication on other things, and the stupid bans are another matter mind

 

[T.A]

I think at the end of the day what caused the whole situation in not communicating correctly, maybe from both sides of the coin. Everyone and I mean everyone thanks Tom for everything he's done in the past decade or so and all the other admins that have helped one way or another.

Whats done is done now and I suppose they'll never be any closure for some people because of the way the forum shut but that's life. I suppose the best thing to do now is to learn from past mistakes and just remember when you think there's a problem then communicate. after all we all want the same thing from this forum we have now.

Whether it's today, tomorrow or years from now I hope all the admin that were on TFF join up here even if it's just to post once a month or whatever just to show there's no hard feelings.

Thats my view anyway.

 

[TomPNE94]

I think at the end of the day what caused the whole situation in not communicating correctly, maybe from both sides of the coin. Everyone and I mean everyone thanks Tom for everything he's done in the past decade or so and all the other admins that have helped one way or another.

Whats done is done now and I suppose they'll never be any closure for some people because of the way the forum shut but that's life. I suppose the best thing to do now is to learn from past mistakes and just remember when you think there's a problem then communicate. after all we all want the same thing from this forum we have now.

Whether it's today, tomorrow or years from now I hope all the admin that were on TFF join up here even if it's just to post once a month or whatever just to show there's no hard feelings.

Thats my view anyway.

Agreed.

 

[Magic]

3. How would you feel if you were suspended/warned, and Admin posted all the reasons on the open board. You wouldn't be best pleased. If it was me, I would be pissed off.

When I was stopped from posting without any explanation, that would have been a fucking godsend to be fair.

 

[Magic]

We're doomed to go round in circles, but to address something that hasn't been discussed yet: how was the most recent 'disrespect' different from the garden variety disrespect that comes with the job? I had seen much worse directed at admin in those preceding years. Tom was no stranger to the other side of that coin, either, and has engaged in some pretty off-colour wind-ups and attacks himself over the course of TFF's history. It was part and parcel of the forum when I joined up. But then it was OK to torture members, as you and others did to me, Max and Renegade, and attack other forums in the name of 'good fun', back in the early days. You could take it just as well as you could dish it out back then. Maybe it stopped being as much fun once the good ol' boys had departed?

Edit: then again, those moral double standards are nothing new. I can remember on one occasion you having to talk Tom down from banning me and a few others for a (fucking hilarious) prank we pulled on Denilson when I was 17.

Still feel relieved not to have done porridge after that forum attack.

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

When I was stopped from posting without any explanation, that would have been a fucking godsend to be fair.

One thing on TFF that I didn't like was that for Mods at least, there was no option to email the member after the upgrade. That meant whoever got binned off for a few days didn't see the explanation until they returned. There was not a lot moderators could do about that one to be fair. I guess Admin had that option via the TFF email address, but it was rarely used

 

[Lord Football]

We're doomed to go round in circles, but to address something that hasn't been discussed yet: how was the most recent 'disrespect' different from the garden variety disrespect that comes with the job? I had seen much worse directed at admin in those preceding years. Tom was no stranger to the other side of that coin, either, and has engaged in some pretty off-colour wind-ups and attacks himself over the course of TFF's history. It was part and parcel of the forum when I joined up. But then it was OK to torture members, as you and others did to me, Max and Renegade in our early days, and attack other forums in the name of good fun back in those days. You could take it just as well as you could dish it out back then. Maybe it stopped being as much fun once the good ol' boys had departed?

Edit: then again, those moral double standards are nothing new. I can remember on one occasion you having to talk Tom down from banning me and a few others for a (fucking hilarious) prank we pulled on Denilson when I was 17.

Look, I can't answer that without spoiling this nasty on line persona of mine........ and without opening a bucket of stuff in my head that is best kept there.

Suffice to say, I got the blame for things I didn't do, and sometimes took the blame for things I didn't do. It was easier that way.

And at the beginning, up till around 2010, I wouldn't, in hindsight, class myself as sane. It took me getting out of the union business and "wee incident with my head" to realise that. I will say, when we used to fuck around, your backs were always covered.

 

[Jockney]

Still feel relieved not to have done porridge after that forum attack.

Me, you, Ste, Max and Renegade: proper sad 2007 MSN crew. The worst of times, the best of times.

 

[Magic]

Me, you, Ste, Max and Renegade: proper sad 2007 MSN crew. The worst of times, the best of times.

Pillars of the community, TFF's glory days, not the same since etc.

 

[mnb089mnb]

The real Lord Football, not the imitation one.
Was there an upgrade due that wasn't compatible with the Shoutbox? Yes. Sorry, but that is the truth. I have a view that it was the complexity of installing it that was the catalyst for the decision to shut.

Firstly, the new update hasn't even been released yet.

Secondly, could have used IP Chat instead. There's plenty of options. Tom decided he couldn't be bothered. Which is fair enough. He didn't seem to think much of the membership (like other admin) so you can see why he decided to quit

 

[Saddlerrad]

Personally, TFF gave me the motivation and the passion to get to where we are today - namely on the basis that I wanted my own version of TFF. I always respected Tom (Still do for his work) and always enjoyed seeing the site doing well and gratifying his years of hard work, which is why I didn't understand why things suddenly got so 'choppy' when it became apparent that the site was going to close down and that people could look for somewhere else from April - despite being invited to do so. Perhaps we did jump in a little bit too soon, but looking back in hindsight now, if we hadn't of jumped in to suggest a new place and people had still pissed and moaned so that TFF went early - where would we be now?

I loved TFF, it gave me good times and now as the coin has flipped it's given me and TB an opportunity to carry over the legacy whilst also take the community in a slightly different direction and you can't help but feel that - so far, a new direction was needed. We've had 500 members join up and search for us in less than 3 days, we've had people scrambling, tweeting, adding people on Facebook, nearly getting banned from other forums to spread the word and that's just a mark of respect that TFF deserves. I can honestly never remember most of the community on here being online so much and actually being excited to come online (or so it seems anyway) and that only speaks volumes IMO - perhaps people are moving towards something 'different', maybe it's what everyone (including Tom needs/needed)..and perhaps down the line we will all be saying 'great move, never looked back'. Maybe it'l all end in tears. It won't be for a lack of passion, desire, time, money or effort that this place goes tits up - I can promise you all that.

Anyone from TFF is welcome here..in my mind anyway.

I'm looking forward to building something from ground zero, hopefully right to the top and personally I'm quite excited to see where we go, what happens and how we evolve. Who knows where we could be in a few years time huh?

 

[Magic]

That is true to be fair. I've been much more inclined to get in and come online at the moment. Browsing TFF had become more of a subconscious habit than anything else in the last couple of years.

 

[Lord Football]

Firstly, the new update hasn't even been released yet.

Secondly, could have used IP Chat instead. There's plenty of options. Tom decided he couldn't be bothered. Which is fair enough. He didn't seem to think much of the membership (like other admin) so you can see why he decided to quit

That is not my understanding. But as someone over 35, I still look in awe at a smartphone and then get a teenager to show me how it works.

I don't think it was as simple as that. But again, I am over 35... It would be unwise for me to comment on what certain Admin thought of certain posters. Though it seems fair game to for certain members to voice opinions on certain Admin. Sometimes on that Shoutbox thing.....

 

[Son of Cod]

2. Most stuff 95% of the time, apart from spam, was reports sent it. Reports were treated confidential, and any member warned etc was PM'd and told about it, not in public.

I can say 100% for sure, that is not true. Ian was banned and he had no idea why. I sent a friendly message to all the admins asking why, or at the very least asking them to contact him. It was ignored for the best part of a week and I had to ask for a response. The response from Pangle was...

"After a discussion between admin, Ian has been banned."

Brilliant.

I asked, once again in a polite and courteous manner, if they could contact Ian. I also questioned if this was the correct protocol for banning members. This was ignored by all admins.

I had my posting disabled for a few comments along the lines of "Again, thanks for the forewarning/explanation", with regards to the removal of the various member groups. I wasn't informed this would happen and when I sent a PM clarifying the situation, my PM privileges were taken away. They also didn't answer an email I sent to them. This clandestine approach to getting rid of members they deemed to be troublesome was almost the worst part of this, for me.

I say almost the worst, as that brings me onto the one of the very people who have taken the time to write into the new forum.

Some of Villaboy's posts over the last few days were total shockers. People who question the decisions of a group of online forum administrators are the type of people who can't "cut the mustard in real life". Seriously?! Get a fucking grip. Not only that but getting the last word in in threads and then closing them down without letting others respond. A cowardly resolution that did more to the stoke the fires of TFF's downfall than it did eradicate any problems. This wasn't just Villaboy, though. This was something that was indicative of the whole admin team and some of the moderating team, too.

The incessant cries of ingratitude everytime somebody took issue with anything were also particularly pathetic. Yes, you ran an internet forum but we didn't ask you to. You chose to do it. Plenty of people said thanks when you ran features and weren't being a bunch of snivelling brats.

I admit that some of my comments were sarcastic in nature, but was that really a surprise when you flat out ignore people? They were never enough to warrant being banned, though. The admin team used this notion of people unjustly questionning everything they did as a way to cloak the fact that they were getting rid of posters who not only knew they were being a set of self-important sycophants but were also capable of calling them out on it.

 

[GodsGift]

So fucking ungrateful SoC.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

i had a thanksgiving in china (with mostly yanks) and we all held hands and gave thanks one by one to various people, objects and establishments. i gave thanks to tff and everyone looked at me strange. this was even after my unjust banning. that kind of forgiveness would lend itself well to a mod position

#ian4mod

 

[Saddlerrad]

That is true to be fair. I've been much more inclined to get in and come online at the moment. Browsing TFF had become more of a subconscious habit than anything else in the last couple of years.

The stats back this up to.

Today we did, 57,500 hits... around 1.725m a month. If I remember correctly, TFF was only roughly 2m-2.5m hits per month in normal working order a couple of months ago. With that guest traffic and 32,500 more members. Just goes to show if you get the regulars in, then you already have the member base to move forward.

I'll butt out now as my issues are far less vigorous than some in here...