Who are you voting for OFFICIAL POLL

[HertsWolf]

The Tories have failed to hit immigration targets consistently (ironically enough it even rose under the stewardship of the current Prime Minister during her time overseeing it), so I'm not sure why you've got such great faith in them in that regard.

I just noticed this post. It's a really good point. I've been wondering when any of the mainstream media is going to point this out.
They've made another big commitment on immigration which they are unlikely to be able to keep. It's strange how both the Tories and - to a degree - Labour have managed to avoid any real scrutiny of manifestos against eventual policy for nearly 20 years.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Tory. Somewhat reluctantly. The other parties will scupper Brexit if they get half a chance (good old Jez wants properly out, of course, but the PLP will never allow it).

Having done a bit of research it doesn't seem altogether fanciful that the Tories could make a decent fist of Poplar and Limehouse, despite Labour going into the election with a hefty majority. The southern part of the constituency near Canary Wharf has a solid Tory base to draw on, clearly there's a national swing from Labour to Tory going on and we also have a Lutfur Rahman disciple (current member of Tower Hamlets Council) standing. No doubt he'll urge the Bengali community to abandon Labour and get behind him. The hold that crook has over the people round here is quite unbelievable.

I'm sure you once used to profess to care about the poor. Get a grip, man, ffs.

 

[Krazy8]

Katie, you are someone I vaguely respect. I would be genuinely interested to hear your reasoning.

I'm perhaps not the best person to ask as I have a pretty nihilistic view on anything that doesn't involve two wheels and an engine, and that conclusively covers politics and elections! The only political figure that could get me out campaigning would be Sir Humphrey Appleby, but sadly that's no longer possible. As it is I'll vote Tory, but I'm really not that fussed either way and won't be shedding any tears or popping champagne corks whatever the result.

As for the reasons why...it's mainly because I think they're the least worse

For whatever reason I'm naturally, (by this I mean without outside influence or peer pressure etc), to the right and in favour of capitalism, in much the same way I imagine you're naturally to the left? Straight away that aligns me with the tories and there's no other party that comes close to convincing me they could do a better job.

UKIP:- Irrelevant now we have brexit, and way too far to the right anyway. Despite what you may think there's no way I would consider them!
Greens:- Lol. Admire their theories but they're searching for a utopia that just isn't possible imo.
Lib dems:- Seem to struggle with the idea of democracy and I would never vote for a party so in favour of the eu.
Labour:- Don't trust them. It's easy to promise the earth when you're not likely to get in and most of them seem pretty incompetent to me. I wouldn't leave John McDonnell in charge of a jelly let alone the countries finances. I should add that I've lived in an army town my entire life and my best friend moved here from Northern Ireland because of this, so growing up during the Blair years didn't excactly enamour the young Krazy8 to the Labour Party!

As for Corbyn I don't know where to start. I didn't think it could get any better for the conservatives when Ed Miliband left but I was wrong. Way too far out of his depth, way too far to the left and I couldn't see anything but a disaster with him as PM. I find his attitude towards the armed forces insulting and his relationships/links to the IRA pretty shocking. https://www.express.co.uk/comment/c...y-corbyn-ira-terrorist-connections-friend/amp {pretty much this.

So that leaves the conservatives. I can assure you there is a lot that I don't agree with them on (fox hunting for example. Wtf is that all about?!?!)*, but I think they do an ok job, which as I mentioned is a lot better than I think anyone else would do**. They also promised an eu referendum, gave us a vote and are now negotiating our exit (and doing it well, imo), which I was very much in favour of.

If I was to try and answer your question in one sentence, it would be...'I don't trust or have confidence in any politician or political party, but I trust the conservatives a lot more than anyone else'.

Yeah, yeah. I get that, it was the "you're someone I respect" that I was giving shade to. ( only joking krazy8, even though you did say you were going to mute me for the entire election)

I nearly put you on ignore when I found out you were a gashead so you're doing quite well really!

So you'll be voting for Murrison then? The man who in 16 years as an MP in Wiltshire is most famous for having done fuck all in 16 years of being an MP? Very appreciative of his military career, but as an MP, he absolutely DEFINES what is wrong with MPs: just insipid, anodyne toss. The highpoint of his parliamentary career is advising on Tunisia. Well fuck me, the legacies of some long-standing political giants are at risk from this titan of democracy.

Perhaps he doesn't make the news nationally but locally he's very popular. Not everyone's looking for a local mp to go in all guns blazing tearing up longstanding legacies anyway.

doesn't get as much shit for it as Abbott , but I think we know why that is).

I've only had a quick scan through so sorry if I misunderstood but is this in reference to the media? I know you've commented on them before implying they favour the right but I think this is just paranoia. I have it the other way round! I think it's much like watching a football match and always thinking you've been hard done by by the ref :hesk:

*It feels like if you vote Tory that means you agree with them on everything. I can't believe many voters agree 100% with any one party, I don't think there's that many dyed in the wool tories about!
**To pluck an example out that I can relate to, there's been a lot of critisicm towards the conservatives about mental health services and their commitment to improving them etc. This is completely justified in my eyes and yet I genuinely believe we'd be worse off if labour had been in power for the last seven years.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

I've only had a quick scan through so sorry if I misunderstood but is this in reference to the media? I know you've commented on them before implying they favour the right but I think this is just paranoia. I have it the other way round! I think it's much like watching a football match and always thinking you've been hard done by by the ref :hesk:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ection-2017-labour-conservative-a7745401.html

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

so growing up during the Blair years didn't excactly enamour the young Krazy8 to the Labour Party!

As for Corbyn I don't know where to start. I didn't think it could get any better for the conservatives when Ed Miliband left but I was wrong. Way too far out of his depth, way too far to the left and I couldn't see anything but a disaster with him as PM. I find his attitude towards the armed forces insulting and his relationships/links to the IRA pretty shocking. https://www.express.co.uk/comment/c...y-corbyn-ira-terrorist-connections-friend/amp {pretty much this.

Find those last two points pretty incongruous? I mean, say what you like about Corbyn, he's been vociferously consistently opposed to the deployment of British troops anywhere in the world - including Northern Ireland. Corbyn's position on Sinn Fein was essentially correct though. I mean, both the Thatcher and Major governments had secret talks with Sinn Fein and only squeamishness about public reaction prevented a peace process before 1997 (and hundreds of people died unnecessarily because of that).

It's almost the exact opposite of Blair's used the military in service of imperialism. You can sort of have one or the other - kids dead in foreign wars or someone who recognises that militarist adventurism is bad and wrong.

(or are you saying the Good Friday Agreement was bad - in which case I'll duck out of this argument as i'm not here for that sort of nonsense).

 

[Alty]

Find those last two points pretty incongruous? I mean, say what you like about Corbyn, he's been vociferously consistently opposed to the deployment of British troops anywhere in the world - including Northern Ireland. Corbyn's position on Sinn Fein was essentially correct though. I mean, both the Thatcher and Major governments had secret talks with Sinn Fein and only squeamishness about public reaction prevented a peace process before 1997 (and hundreds of people died unnecessarily because of that).

It's almost the exact opposite of Blair's used the military in service of imperialism. You can sort of have one or the other - kids dead in foreign wars or someone who recognises that militarist adventurism is bad and wrong.

(or are you saying the Good Friday Agreement was bad - in which case I'll duck out of this argument as i'm not here for that sort of nonsense).

You can't say public squeamishness was all that delayed the peace process. Sinn Fein would have been susceptible to a damaging split if they'd gone from armalite and ballot box to negotiating Sunningdale 2.0 in double quick time. The republican movement were as big or bigger an impediment to the peace process.

In any case, public squeamishness is understandable when you have events like Enniskillen happening...

Corbyn and co would have been far better throwing in their lot with Hume and the SDLP if they really wanted peace. They're the ones who ushered Sinn Fein in from the cold and who basically wrote the GFA.

 

[Alty]

I'm sure you once used to profess to care about the poor. Get a grip, man, ffs.

I do. And I'm amenable to parts of the Labour manifesto. But I also care about the independence of this country and I simply don't believe Brexit will be a success with Labour (probably necessarily propped up by LDs and SNP) in Government.

 

[Krazy8]

Find those last two points pretty incongruous? I mean, say what you like about Corbyn, he's been vociferously consistently opposed to the deployment of British troops anywhere in the world - including Northern Ireland. Corbyn's position on Sinn Fein was essentially correct though. I mean, both the Thatcher and Major governments had secret talks with Sinn Fein and only squeamishness about public reaction prevented a peace process before 1997 (and hundreds of people died unnecessarily because of that).

It's almost the exact opposite of Blair's used the military in service of imperialism. You can sort of have one or the other - kids dead in foreign wars or someone who recognises that militarist adventurism is bad and wrong.

Sorry I wrote that in quite a messy way. Which party you support is generally dictated by a shit load of events over a number of years, condensing it down to one post isn't easy!

All the points to do with Ireland were in reference to Corbyn, the bit about being in an army town/Tony Blair was in reference to the Iraq war and was meant as a general point that labour were always up against it in my eyes.

or are you saying the Good Friday Agreement was bad

As mentioned I didn't make it very clear before - but no, that's not my view.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ection-2017-labour-conservative-a7745401.html

https://www.rt.com/document/591984e7c361888b758b4587/amp
One independent review highlighting left-wing bias, the other highlighting right-wing bias. Like I say, imo the 'referee/always being hard done by' view applies here.

 

[Abertawe]

I do. And I'm amenable to parts of the Labour manifesto. But I also care about the independence of this country and I simply don't believe Brexit will be a success with Labour (probably necessarily propped up by LDs and SNP) in Government.

A success for who? It certainly won't be for the likes of me & you should the Conservatives get their way

 

[Red]

I do. And I'm amenable to parts of the Labour manifesto. But I also care about the independence of this country and I simply don't believe Brexit will be a success with Labour (probably necessarily propped up by LDs and SNP) in Government.

I'd rather have the calm and measured Corbyn negotiating with the EU than the already hostile May, it's not even started and she's antagonising them.

 

[mowgli]

I'd rather have the calm and measured Corbyn negotiating with the EU than the already hostile May, it's not even started and she's antagonising them.

I think you'll find it was the drunken Juncker that started the spat mate by leaking detail of the meeting at NO 10,even he's now admitted he made a mistake by doing it.

 

[TheMinsterman]

A success for who? It certainly won't be for the likes of me & you should the Conservatives get their way

I'll be honest a Tory hard Brexit tinged with their ideological desires and a carte blanche licence to persue them fills me with dread. I think it will do untold damage to our country and take decades to reverse some of the insidious bile they'll have planned. I don't know where this narrative about Tories being stronger in Brexit has come from, plenty opposed it, the current prime minister flip flopped on it herself, she repeatedly goes back on her promises and changes her mind.

They've demonstrated zero ability to do it well beyond pummelling it down everyone's throats that they're the stable Brexit party.

I am also concerned how this election is becoming such a one issue election. Fuck Brexit, it isn't the be all and end all, it's one facet going forward that will reflect the parties other policies. I don't want a Brexit run by people who are introducing a dementia tax, who've callously created a rape clause, who've driven up youth poverty, whose ideological agenda has stigmatised benefits so much that there's barely any tangible outrage on a national level that disabled people are being humiliated and driven to suicide and their carers are being made poorer than they already were, a party who want to sell everything we have off to the rich and trap our industries under foreign ownership whilst parroting about Britain for the British. This is a party who want to bring back fox hunting despite it being heavily unpopular just because their mates enjoy it for fuck sake!

I'm not against right leaning views by default, but this current government are evil and they'll spread their disdain and contempt all over Brexit. I don't think all the horrible things they do and will do are worth glossing over because of the perception they'll be amazing on Brexit. I don't subscribe to this idea that it's ok because we can just vote them out and fix the perfidious elements after they've "strongly negotiated" out exit, that's fallacious. We will be locked into all manner of things that will be for the benefit of big business and the rich, not you or me.

 

[HertsWolf]

As for the reasons why...it's mainly because I think they're the least worse

In itself not a bad reason, and one that is probably shared by millions of voters. However, we have moved into an era whereby the public generally despise politicians and political parties. In many respects, it is a pity (perhaps more for Labour) that UKIP are so resolvedly racist and xenophobic and that the LibDems are so desperate for power that (at both local and national level) they have put themselves into dodgy coalitions.

 

[Stevencc]

I'll be honest a Tory hard Brexit tinged with their ideological desires and a carte blanche licence to persue then fills me with dread. I think it will do untold damage to our country and take decades to reverse some of the insidious bile they'll have planned. I don't know where this narrative about Tories being stronger in Brexit has come from, plenty opposed it, the current prime minister flip flopped on it herself, she repeatedly goes back on her promises and changes her mind.

They've demonstrated zero ability to do it well beyond pummelling it down everyone's throats that they're the stable Brexit party.

I am also concerned how this election is becoming such a one issue election. Fuck Brexit, it isn't the be all and end all, it's one facet going forward that will reflect the parties others policies. I don't want a Brexit run by people who are introducing a dementia tax, who've callously created a rape clause, who've driven up youth poverty, whose ideological agenda has stigmatised benefits so much that there's barely any tangible outrage on a national level that disabled people are being humiliated and driven to suicide and their carers are being made poorer than they already were, a party who want to sell everything we have off to the rich and trap our industries under foreign ownership whilst parroting about Britain for the British. This is a party who want to bring back fox hunting despite it being heavily unpopular just because their mates enjoy it for fuck sake!

I'm not against right leaning views by default, but this current government are evil and they'll spread their disdain and contempt all over Brexit. I don't think all the horrible things they do and will do are worth glossing over because of the perception they'll be amazing on Brexit. I don't subscribe to this idea that it's ok because we can just vote them out and fix the perfidious elements after they've "strongly negotiated" out exit, that's fallacious. We will be locked into all manner of things that will be for the benefit of big business and the rich, not you or me.

 

[Abertawe]

Lowkey delivers.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Interesting, thank you. And sorry for the insult. I was in drink.

In vino veritas, perhaps?

Seriously, no need for apologies. It's a politics forum, not a designated safe space. Indulge in sarcy invective if the mood takes you. I often do.

I don't know where this narrative about Tories being stronger in Brexit has come from, plenty opposed it, the current prime minister flip flopped on it herself, she repeatedly goes back on her promises and changes her mind.

FWIW I’m very wary about May. I dislike her for various reasons (e.g. her being quite awful on civil liberties) and I’m very mindful that she's not intuitively pro-Brexit. She's pursuing what seems to be the most politically expedient course (for her) given the political terrain she’s inherited, not carrying out a reform she believes in and has fought for. That worries me.

At the same time, she is clearly the least worst available option for Leave voters who see Brexit as a priority. Labour may have a Brexit-sympathetic leader, but the party is too divided (on Brexit and about a billion other things) to be trusted with something so important. The Lib Dems have made opposing Brexit the central plank of their electoral strategy. UKIP is no longer relevant to the debate. The Green Party never was.

So, for people who actually want Brexit to happen, it’s a no brainer to vote Tory. An overall win for anyone else, or even a hung parliament, is going to badly derail the process. Obviously none of that matters to people who think Brexit is a load of foolhardy bollocks, but other people’s justifications are never that convincing when you don’t share their political priorities.

I am also concerned how this election is becoming such a one issue election. Fuck Brexit, it isn't the be all and end all.

I think it’s a mistake – albeit a very common one – to isolate Brexit as a single issue the same way we isolate issues like defence, transport or health. It has a much greater foundational importance, one that transcends any party political spat about how to fund the health service, reform the economy or whatever.

Any worthwhile debate about government policy/reform has to be underpinned by an accurate understanding of what the British government is actually permitted to do. Under the existing constitutional arrangement, that requires a very detailed understanding of EU law. Why waste time debating the best way to control intra-EU immigration if the obvious means of controlling it are illegal under EU law? Why debate the pros and cons of, say, renationalising majory industries if it's forbidden by an EU directive?

That's why Brexit is important. I know, I know... many people didn't vote Leave for that reason, but my basic point stands. It's not about what future governments may or may not do in this or that policy area. It's about whether you want an external legal/regulatory framework in place defining the boundaries for what a British government can actually do in those policy areas. Do you want the people writing the rules to be subject to greater democratic control or less? Do you want them to be closer to home or further away? Do you want greater media oversight or less?

Having Brexit (and by extension the more general question of our relationship with the EU) at the heart of our political debate is a long overdue and very welcome change. The tendency to see it as a separate and largely unimportant issue was part of the problem.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Please don't tell us it's a long overdue and very welcome change. It just seems a bit unpleasantly self-congratulatory. Some of us are aware that what we had with Europe was something of a trade-off and are now wondering when this glorious future's going to come. Coz at the moment all we've got is a hostile and overtly racist media, a governing party happy to indulge them, a dysfunctional democracy and fears concerning a precipitous fall in living standards. What do I have to celebrate? And indeed, what good are principles if they fly in the face of your personal values or future prosperity?

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Please don't tell us it's a long overdue and very welcome change. It just seems a bit unpleasantly self-congratulatory. Some of us are aware that what we had with Europe was something of a trade-off and are now wondering when this glorious future's going to come. Coz at the moment all we've got is a hostile and overtly racist media, a governing party happy to indulge them, a dysfunctional democracy and fears concerning a precipitous fall in living standards. What do I have to celebrate?

Jeez Louise, I miss that egg...

I’m not telling you to welcome Brexit, or to look on the bright side, or to stop moaning, or to cease your ‘treacherous’ practice of talking the country down, or any other daft pish like that. Be as sulky, pissed off, worried or apocalyptic as you chuffing well please. It’s no skin off my nose.

Also, if I really wanted to rub Remainers’ faces in it, I would have been about 100,000 times more annoying than I have been to date. I’ve actually made a conscious effort to keep the crowing to a minimum.

The welcome change I referred to in my previous post was not Brexit itself, but the shift towards seeing our relationship with the EU as a central/foundational issue instead of a peripheral one. The tendency until very recently was to isolate “Europe” as a policy area and then treat it as one of secondary importance – a fringe issue that only matters to a bunch of fossils on the conservative right. I see that as a bad thing, not because I’m pro-Brexit but because it’s politically illiterate.

And indeed, what good are principles if they fly in the face of your personal values or future prosperity?

I’m not sure I really understand this last bit. Your argument is structured in a way that suggests a category distinction between “principles” and “personal values”, but the difference isn’t clear (they seem broadly interchangeable). As for the “future prosperity” part, I think a pretty good litmus test of one’s values/principles is whether one is willing to stick to them in cases where doing so might be disadvantageous in some way.

 

[Red]

I think you'll find it was the drunken Juncker that started the spat mate by leaking detail of the meeting at NO 10,even he's now admitted he made a mistake by doing it.

Do you think a woman whose 'no deal is better than a bad deal' philosophy is the right person to be leading these negotiations?

 

[mowgli]

Do you think a woman whose 'no deal is better than a bad deal' philosophy is the right person to be leading these negotiations?

As someone who voted for Brexit yes i do mate. If The EU don't stop coming up with ridiculous figures of how much we have to pay to leave in my view they will be to blame if we walk away without a deal. They will be short of 18 billion a year after we leave so they are trying to plug that hole,even their own lawyers say we don't have to pay anything as we'll have paid in another 36 billion from the time we triggered article 50 to the time we finally leave.

 

[Red]

But no deal is a bad deal.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Fuck it Aber gas - I think I'm leaning towards Labour.

 

[Aber gas]

Fuck it Aber gas - I think I'm leaning towards Labour.

G'wan llamas. We've fucking got this.
Forza Corbyn
For the many

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

May is gonner slumdunk it home though.

 

[Aber gas]

May is gonner slumdunk it home though.

Don't be silly. Folk like feeding kids and their nan having a house.

 

[markwwfc1992]

I would presume rightly or wrongly, the horrific event in Manchester will sway many votes for Conservatives.

 

[Red]

I would presume rightly or wrongly, the horrific event in Manchester will sway many votes for Conservatives.

Based on what?

 

[JaseTheVillain]

Based on what?

Immigrants are bad.

Don't tell them the attack was orchestrated by a British national, mind you.

 

[Jockney]

The distance between the two events is big enough that the abiding emotions of most voters won't be strong enough to do critical damage to Labour's campaign gains, but I don't think that's the biggest issue. What's most damaging for Labour is that it has interrupted the momentum they were accumulating up until Monday night and the electorate will understandably not be receptive to any discussion that doesn't centre around national security for at least a week. Probably longer.

 

[Techno Natch]

The distance between the two events is big enough that the abiding emotions of most voters won't be strong enough to do critical damage to Labour's campaign gains, but I don't think that's the biggest issue. What's most damaging for Labour is that it has interrupted the momentum they were accumulating up until Monday night and the electorate will understandably not be receptive to any discussion that doesn't centre around national security for at least a week. Probably longer.

Also May made a complete fool of herself on Monday but it's been overshadowed now.