WWE Raw Discussion Thread

[Christian Slater]

Injuries aside, the biggest problem on regards to stars is the last decade being the John Cena show. They put guys that work once or twice a year over the guys that are there every week, as well as those prominent spots at 'Mania. They've nobody to blame but themselves for the lack of stars.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I was backing up your point that ratings drop during this time of the year and the WWE gives in completely. What's different is the amount the ratings have dropped. Raw is now hitting the same ratings Smackdown was a couple of years ago. The interest in product is waning.

I was confused by Dave's post (still am, TBH) but yours have been perfectly intelligible, and I find little in them with which to disagree. Sorry for lumping the two of you together.

You're right. The NFL thing I described is cyclical. It explains why the ratings usually take a 10-15% hit in the final quarter, but it doesn't explain something like the ratings falling to a 20-year low. Obviously a much more general decline is occurring.

I should probably make clear that the stuff I've posted recently about the quarterly profit margins isn't to deny the decline. I was merely pointing out that the drop in viewership hasn't affected the bottom line in the way most might think. The customer base has shrunk but the profit margin has gone up. I suppose the logical inference to draw is they're selling a lot more to that shrunken base.

The long-term problem, as you and several others have identified is, is that significantly lower ratings adversely affects WWE's chances of getting a lucrative TV deal when it's time to renew. They didn't get anywhere near what they were looking for last time. How much worse will their bargaining position be if the ratings stay where they are?

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

Sorry for the late reply, I am not dodging the question just I get very restricted time to post here at work so jump about the football forums and usually post where can, and not getting a lot of time thesedays.

I look to viewers more than ratings because while ratings do give a big overall picture and can show some 'stability' based on fact it will take into account a general broad viewership of all programmes at that time of day and if overall less people are watching general tv it will reflect that fact, I personally think Wrestling is abit different to most general programmes.

I think Wrestling is abit of a unique TV programme, abit like sports programmes it will have its dedicated, die-hard fanbase, yep it will have peak and low peak periods of the year, but people who watch wrestling will usually still watch wrestling through good or bad......I kept sticking with TNA through its good or bad and people here do the same with WWE.

What the viewership is showing that the ratings mostly do not is that die hard fanbase is dwindling and at a very high percentage.

800,000 people have stopped watching wrestling since this time last year............if you tag on TNA aswell then 1.4 million fans have ditched wrestling in 1 year.

that is probably down 2 million plus if you go back a couple of years.......we're looking at 25% of the fanbase of die hard wrestling fans have just out and out stopped watching.....and these viewership drops will be similar whether it be January, April, June, August or November.

when does Wrestling hit its brick wall in terms of fanbase sticking with the product? Only in January 2010 when TNa launched its MNW failure there was nearly 8 million people switched in over the 2 products, we now just hope for 4 million somewhere.

Mania may panic people if it doesn't hit over 5 million for the shows about it and I do not think it will.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

No need to apologise. I often lack the time to post here too.

Okay, I get that there is a ratings/viewers distinction generally. Ratings are a measure of audience share, with each point representing 1% of the overall audience. If the overall audience is 100 million, a 4.0 rating is 4 million viewers. If the overall audience shrinks to 90 million (perhaps because people are accessing more content online through sites like Netflix, Hulu, etc.), that same 4.0 now amounts to just 3.6 million viewers. So, yeah. In theory, ratings can be steady but disguise a significant decline in viewership. Fine.

But you're saying a lot more than that, aren't you? Your basic assertion, if I've read you correctly, is that the company's die hard fanbase – the sort of people who routinely watch Raw, subscribe to the network, buy merchandise, attend live events, etc. – is dwindling at an alarming rate. That assertion may be correct, but what's the evidential basis? How does one empirically measure that particular decline?

Let's say, for argument's sake, that Raw averages 4 million viewers in 2015 but only averages a 3 million viewers in 2016. It's lost a million viewers, and it's safe to assume there are at least some die hard fans in there. But how many? Perhaps the die hard fanbase consists of about 1.5 million viewers who have gone nowhere, and the 1 million who have left were never more than fair-weather fans in the first place. Is there a way to tell?

 

[Christian Slater]

That's a good point, Scumbag. A lot of people will watch Raw by download and it it's fair to say wrestling fans don't tend to quit entirely, they just have a break. What is significant is the importance advertisers and networks place on ratings, because they're the ones giving WWE a large portion of their income. They don't give a shit about the WWE Network doing well, merchandise selling or excuses like fans watching online, they need eyes on their station to draw revenue.

A potential blessing as a fan is if the ratings continue to plummet it could lead to a shift to a more mature presentation again. The main reason to shift to PG was the revenue brought in by family friendly advertising. If that dwindles to a rate that shows no benefit then there's no point in keeping the limitations on how they can produce the show, especially given that's a big contributor to why ratings are declining.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I don't think the family-friendly PG-TV stuff is really the problem. The things that drive me nuts about Raw – the 3-hour running length, the piss poor storytelling, the over-scripted promos, the lack of long-term planning, the misuse of talented mid-carders, Glen Jacobs not wearing a shirt – have very little (if anything) to do with WWE wanting to put out a family friendly product. The 3-hour thing is probably a regrettable requirement of their TV deal. The rest is just bad creative.

 

[iesty wfc]

With 3 hours, they should run a few more of the jobber / lower Mid card storylines that used to be so prevalent in the attitude era. Some of those were quality

Would much prefer that than crappy extended promos and would help build the roster strength.

 

[Christian Slater]

I agree that being PG shouldn't get in the way of storytelling, but the extra level of violence they can use is helpful in developing feuds. Also, a bit of foul language and some blood (on occasion) go a long way in keeping your disbelief suspended. This is a show centred around violence after all.

One of the reasons people aren't bothering to watch is there's no reason to come back the following week. It's bizarre how they don't put any effort in at all into developing character and seeing through angles. This is why Roman is suffering, people resent his forced push because, as an audience, Reigns hasn't connected with us. His single's career has been contrived because they've not put the effort in.

The Shield, which is arguably their biggest success in creating new stars in recent times was half arsed. They tried to develop them as mercenaries but that theme was never stuck to, so they just ended up being three guys that looked bad assume putting on great matches every week. I mean, can any of you remember a story involving The Shield? Even their break up was lazy, Reigns didn't give a shit a couple of weeks after Seth turned in him. Now, because we the three man tags were good we have to suffer through multi man tag matches every week, because WWE runs anything associated with success into the ground.

Got into a bit of a rant there, sorry.

 

[Saddlerrad]

Unfortunately, regardless of creative or however long talent takes a break for and then returns - they are now sunk. From this position they need to virtually gut the entire roster and start again. That's no fault of the talent, but regardless of what character or storyline they are given, the crowd, the Internet, the IWC - they all know how they've been badly misused and weak they are.

Vince needs to go. Enjoy your retirement. We need 2 writers, 2 hours of Raw, 2 hours of Smackdown and NXT. Nothing else. Over kill and over saturation is a big issue - for fans and the injuries the roster has too. They need to perhaps focus Raw as a TV16 show again - the odd blade job, no head shots but an up in the intensity of things.

Unfortunately, wrestling just isn't cool in ANY walk of modern life, like it was during the attitude era. Too much media, too much scrutiny. The Internet is too far and too wide.

For those reasons alone, Wrestling as a sport and WWE are in big trouble.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Completely agree with Scumbag, PG really isn't a problem, the problem is the WWE cannot decide which demographic it wants to appeal to and tries far too hard to please everybody. It'll push an "IWC Darling" to please them, it'll ham up Cena to please the "soccer moms and kids" etc. It means everything is all over the place, there is no overall narrative to speak of. They need to pick a direction and stick to it, you can appeal to different people with different characters and STILL have an overall narrative you stick to.

If it's PG and more "kid-centric" and doesn't appeal to me, fine. If it's TV-16 and more like the stuff I loved, great. Just pick one.

 

[Christian Slater]

Do yourself a favour and don't watch Raw. The last segment made me bored and cringe at the same time.

I'm done until I hear things have improved.

 

[T.A]

Haha. Yeah I won't be watching until at least after New Year.

 

[TheMinsterman]

You'd already not stopped watching?

RIP.

 

[Baz]

Opening segment picked up huh? Rhyno helping Dudleyz/Dreamer makes sense, but cheers for Wyatt during the promo doesn't help him.

Opening match served it's purpose. I like the fact Rhyno got more of a reaction when it was Rhyno/Roman alone in the ring, as much as Reigns has improved that still doesn't bode well for him.

Owens vs Ziggler was a very good match.

Miz/Neville skit was pointless but I get they want to get Neville with a talker so it could work.

Divas match was ok I suppose.

New Day/Team BAD haha unicorn horns oh dear me, however Sasha dancing yeah why not?

Short and sweet tag team match between New Day & Lucha Dragons. New Day taking the loss is all good for the storyline heading into TLC.

Miz TV brilliant as ever. Though Charlotte bring Miz's wife into ooh, i'd love to see Maryse come back and batter her haha.

Rusev/Ryback was what it was. Lana being a proper heel again finally woohoo.

Swagger/Stardust just used to make Swagger look a threat for the Del Rio match. He'll probably disappear again after Sunday unless they pull the plug and realign him with Zeb.

The rosebush haha love it. They need to give Rose feuds out of this though, but it's keeping him on tv so he's obviously doing something right.

Strowman/Dreamer was short enough to keep Strowman protected until he learns a lot more.

Final segment was done very well. However Reigns got the upper hand twice on Sheamus here so to me that says Sheamus is retaining at TLC.

You can tell this was a go home show so not too much to write home about overall.

 

[Christian Slater]

Baz, I really want to know how you thought that last segment was good. I, without hyperbole, consider that one of the worst things I've seen concerning a main event in over twenty years of watching.

 

[Baz]

Baz, I really want to know how you thought that last segment was good. I, without hyperbole, consider that one of the worst things I've seen concerning a main event in over twenty years of watching.

Set's it up to be a decent brawl if nothing else. TLC is often the throw away PPV anyway and the card isn't looking too bad overall, so having them book Reigns looking like he's got the better of Sheamus makes sense going forward for me. Plus ending with Sheamus through a table? Makes sense to me.

 

[Christian Slater]

I'm talking about the extremely painful ten minutes before a punch was thrown, Bazza. I'm talking about the two of them being unable to get away from:
"Fight me, son."
"Nah."
"Come on, fight me."
"Not gonna do it, fella."
"You have small balls, fight me."
"I might do, although I don't think I will."
"Fight me, son."
"Nah."

It went on and on and on like that for ten fucking minutes. Both of them proved why they're not main event material, they can't think on their feet. The psychology was also appalling, they both snickered their way through the promo.

 

[Baz]

Joys of things being scripted for you right? I can't imagine Reigns has freedom to 'think on his feet', Sheamus might but I can't really see it but as he's Trips "Boy" you never know.

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

last night was a perfect example of why 3 hour raws don't work right now.
opening segment of a pretty crazy 16 man tag match, where reigns pins sheamus.
you then get sheamus saying he'll meet reigns face to face later on tonight
and your main event is reigns and sheamus arguing in the ring with the commentators saying 'oh i wonder what will happen when reigns and sheamus go head to head'. well we already know basically, reigns pinned sheamus 2 hours ago.

that last segment should have been saved for smackdown. instead now we'll have a pointless smackdown which will add nothing to any story that's currently running. and that's because they cram EVERYTHING into the 3 hour raw because they struggle for time

 

[Libertine]

Yeh, this last segment is terrible. Painful.

 

[kopite]

I'm talking about the extremely painful ten minutes before a punch was thrown, Bazza. I'm talking about the two of them being unable to get away from:
"Fight me, son."
"Nah."
"Come on, fight me."
"Not gonna do it, fella."
"You have small balls, fight me."
"I might do, although I don't think I will."
"Fight me, son."
"Nah."

It went on and on and on like that for ten fucking minutes. Both of them proved why they're not main event material, they can't think on their feet. The psychology was also appalling, they both snickered their way through the promo.

So I said I was gonna stop watching after Survivor Series and I did. But the new tv I got on Black Friday, why not watch an episode. Just when it looked like it would deliver...Wyatts confronting the league which turned into clusterf**k...and the closing segment was just a complete dross.

Mate you forgot tater tots...No Roman you'll hit me with chair, you'll hit me with table....by the time Sheamus went through the table setting up his title retain on Sunday...my attention span went.

I don't get the whole Paige Charlotte thing...who is the heel in that?

Will most likely watch TLC on Monday after work then switch off as Christmas episodes tend to but crap then start tuning in for the Rumble and Mania season.

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

So I said I was gonna stop watching after Survivor Series and I did. But the new tv I got on Black Friday, why not watch an episode. Just when it looked like it would deliver...Wyatts confronting the league which turned into clusterf**k...and the closing segment was just a complete dross.

Mate you forgot tater tots...No Roman you'll hit me with chair, you'll hit me with table....by the time Sheamus went through the table setting up his title retain on Sunday...my attention span went.

I don't get the whole Paige Charlotte thing...who is the heel in that?

Will most likely watch TLC on Monday after work then switch off as Christmas episodes tend to but crap then start tuning in for the Rumble and Mania season.

The Paige and Charlotte thing is possibly the most confusing thing on the whole show.
So at Survivor Series, you have Paige v Charlotte. The build up is Charlotte being a noble champion and Paige being the biggest nob in the world and calling her dead brother for being weak.
Literally a week later, after the good girl Charlotte beats Paige, Charlotte then uses dodgy tactics to defeat her best mate Becky. Paige and her slander on Charlotte is slowly proved right as for no good reason, Charlotte turns into a dick.
So now Paige and Charlotte are both dicks. But Paige tells the truth.

Meanwhile Sasha is doing diddle squat

 

[Baz]

Sasha is doing some funky dancing with New Day.

 

[Baz]

Sasha is doing some funky dancing with New Day.

 

[T.A]

I hear you brother.

 

[Libertine]

 

[iesty wfc]

New play by play announced announced for smackdown. Ex mma and Showtime boxing commentator Mauro ranello. Watched a couple of clips of his coverage. Seems ok, quite excitable a la Joey styles

 

[Who Needs Mourinho]

New play by play announced announced for smackdown. Ex mma and Showtime boxing commentator Mauro ranello. Watched a couple of clips of his coverage. Seems ok, quite excitable a la Joey styles

I quite like the guy from NXT who has been doing Smackdown for the last few months, much better than Cole, hope he doesn't leave because of this.

 

[TheMinsterman]

WWE just got Roman Reigns popped in fucking Philadelphia where they absolutely slaughtered him.

Maybe there is some life in the old dog yet.

 

[mase]

Aye i've watched the first hour and a bit of RAW so far and it's been great. Will watch the rest this evening but surprisingly good thus far!