Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[TheMinsterman]

To be honest I think that is a fair criticism. I wouldn't want Christians who believe those nutty kind of things coming to the UK either though, and I don't think many of the refugees in this crisis are from the CAR.

Fair play MorDon, I'm glad you saw my intentions weren't to attack you or anything. I think it's an error that a lot of people make, we do separate Christianity practiced in the west from other forms when discussing whether it influences violence but we don't seem to separate Islam in say Syria and Iraq and a place like Oman for example.

 

[TheMinsterman]

We don't get to decide who is born here, we do however get to decide who moves here.

I'm aware, however it's quite easy to just cherry pick the actions of a minority to try and discredit the majority hence the relatively tongue in cheek post. I don't see how posting how one family of refugees were bastards is proof that this should reflect on our policy towards the whole group.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

We don't get to decide who is born here, we do however get to decide who moves here.

maybe we could kill off the machete guy and import a teacher or nurse?

 

[TheMinsterman]

maybe we could kill off the machete guy and import a teacher or nurse?

We could send him on a season long loan as part of the transfer deal. Imagine that deadline day programme?

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

We could send him on a season long loan as part of the transfer deal. Imagine that deadline day programme?

personally i'm a fan of the american draft system. end of the year every country offers up their leading scientists, diplomats and cultural and intellectual figures. the losing countries, those with the weakest GDP for example, get first pick as we parcel them all out. few years of that should equalise the world a bit i'd say

 

[TomPNE94]

G'won Ben Affleck

http://m.couriermail.com.au/enterta...k=2403f09e7a633b9caf7f2c8029b524de-1448053282

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Thought this was quite good for the bbc;

Some fat, Tory c*** obsessed with himself enough to think his pathetic statements will make a difference are not going to help.

 

[Womble98]

The number of Muslims who believe men are superior to women and that women should obey men is definitely the majority, it is still a very prevalent view here among British Muslims. Ben Affleck doesn't offer logic, doesn't offer reason, he just calls it islamaphobic.

 

[mnb089mnb]

How aren't they true? You didn't disprove any stats. Islam is quite objectively not the religion of peace.

Again, you said the majority of Malaysians supported the death penalty for apostasy. That is untrue from the stats you posted.

I wasn't arguing that Islam is "the religion of peace".

 

[Womble98]

Again, you said the majority of Malaysians supported the death penalty for apostasy. That is untrue from the stats you posted.

I wasn't arguing that Islam is "the religion of peace".

And I rephrased myself to state that the majority of Muslim Malaysian's supported the death penalty for apostasy. You are just ignoring what I am arguing about, it was clear that I was talking about Muslims.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

if u are fleeing to the west chances are you aren't the most extreme of muslims. the west's decadence isn't a secret

 

[Techno Natch]

Then how do you explain the stats taken from people in Europe?

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Then how do you explain the stats taken from people in Europe?

less extreme than those in MENA?

 

[TomPNE94]

The number of Muslims who believe men are superior to women and that women should obey men is definitely the majority, it is still a very prevalent view here among British Muslims. Ben Affleck doesn't offer logic, doesn't offer reason, he just calls it islamaphobic.

I don't really understand the point you are trying to make in this thread. It's clear you have a severe dislike of Islam, what are you proposing?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

It should be mocked more openly the way Christianity is, literalistic interpretations at least. If we can laugh at talking snakes then we can laugh at jinn and flying horses and shit*.

*Which Mehdi Hasan believes literally existed.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

out of interest, how do muslims tend to vote in the uk? is it more to do with ethnic heritage than religion? or is it more regional. northern ones more labour for example

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

It should be mocked more openly the way Christianity is, literalistic interpretations at least. If we can laugh at talking snakes then we can laugh at jinn and flying horses and shit.

yeah go for it. i wouldn't though cause i'm not a c*** and wouldn't mock dear friends deeply held beliefs

u should be able to mock religion all u like. the issue we have to be careful of is people just attacking islam. as i'm sure you'd agree tbf. if u just attack 'the other' then u have an issue with the people not the religion. that implies xenophobia and racism

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

There is a lot of unpleasantness in Islam, no doubt about that. All 3 of the Abrahamic religions at their core are nasty, fortunately people have moved past the most literal interpretations and most of them have become, in the main, soft and largely able to exist in the modern, 'liberal' world. Doesn't change the fact you can easily be bigoted and hateful, yet still be by the book.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

yeah go for it. i wouldn't though cause i'm not a c*** and wouldn't mock dear friends deeply held beliefs

Imagine how backward we'd be as a civilization if we all approached life like that.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

There is a lot of unpleasantness in Islam, no doubt about that. All 3 of the Abrahamic religions at their core are nasty, fortunately people have moved past the most literal interpretations and most of them have become, in the main, soft and largely able to exist in the modern, 'liberal' world. Doesn't change the fact you can easily be bigoted and hateful, yet still be by the book.

there was a really good podcast by the journal of american history a few years ago entitled 'was fdr the antichrist'. addressed why christianity in america was once a progressive force for good, battling against slavery and for the emancipation for women, and how those same forces now fight against gay rights and abortion (kinda the opposite to your point actually). the central argument was them seeing the apocalypse coming with the days of fdr, the battle against the antichrist in hitler, the new deal - things like that. u could fight for emancipation and freedoms because these were the last days of earth. ww2 was going to be the end, the final battle before elevation so nothing mattered too much u had to 'better make the best of the last days'. when that didn't occur there was more of an emphasis on building heaven on earth. a reversion to more traditionalism, things like that. was a while since i listened to it and i wasn't totally convinced but it's an interesting hypothesis. thought u might be interested, tis on itunes

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Imagine how backward we'd be as a civilization if we all approached life like that.

we'd all get along a lot better without people saying what's objectively best for everyone

 

[sl1k]

out of interest, how do muslims tend to vote in the uk? is it more to do with ethnic heritage than religion? or is it more regional. northern ones more labour for example

I can't speak for other areas in the UK, but the mayoral elections for Tower Hamlets for example have usually been won on the matters of social housing, local services, investment etc. The way TH is made to seem like in the media, you'd think all the Bangladeshis would care about and want is mandatory faith school enrolments and sharia law.

 

[Womble98]

The issue we have is that those who mock Islam are sent death threats and murdered in the streets. Mocking Islam is met with riots in Islamic countries, mocking Christianity isn't.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

yeah jah feel ya. they've got no reason to feel attacked. it's not like the most powerful country in the world launched a crusade against them and invaded and occupied the cradle of civilization, killing more civilians than all the jihadis have in the western world to date

or have they?

dun dun duuuuuun

 

[DarkSithLord]

Brussels has been placed on the very highest alert with the Underground closed until Sunday.

Have the Intelligence services received a tip off?

 

[silkyman]

The issue we have is that those who mock Islam are sent death threats and murdered in the streets. Mocking Islam is met with riots in Islamic countries, mocking Christianity isn't.

You think it should be?

Christianity has grown up a bit more. But even so, people were trying to convict for Blasphemy as recently as 2007

 

[HertsWolf]

When was the last time a Christian went and blew himself up in a mosque? When was the last time a vicar described the west as the enemy, as something which should be reviled and hated. Yes, the bible says that stuff but do any people in the western world believe it? Do the Christian refugees practice it? The Catholics certainly don't, as the Catechism makes it clear that it isn't allowed. It is this bullshit which completely ignores the reality. In the middle east the biggest victims of all this shit are the Christians who have lived there for centuries and are being driven out.

To act as if the number of Christians who do this kind of thing is equivalent to the number of Muslims who do is just so fucking wrong, and you know it. Your last sentence is false as well, there just isn't a substantial number who believe this stuff, there is the occasional nutjob and that is all.They might view those acts as sinful but with the majority of the world's church's speaking out against the death penalty, there is no way in hell that they actually practice it.

Christianity had its day of barbarism in the medieval/renaissance periods, and at this point is an overwhelmingly peaceful religion. There may be views about homosexuality which are bigoted however there is not a significant number of people calling for the gays to be executed. Islam seems to be however about 700 years behind the rest of the world.

You are taking a rather Euro-centric viewpoint. Muslims point to the many civilians killed by drone attacks, by bombing raids, by missile attacks by "coalition forces", most of which are (certainly perceived, by them, to be) Christian. It is what has given terrorists the "Crusader v the righteous" mentality.
In fact, there are plenty of right-wing pastors attacking Muslims. They are no more representative of Christians than the nutcase Islamists.
You are primarily using belief in ancient texts as the denominator for categorisation, and I am saying that is wrong. My earlier post was simply showing that you can equally point to ancient Christian holy texts for snippets of absurdity.

You say "To act as if the number of Christians who do this kind of thing is equivalent to the number of Muslims who do is just so fucking wrong, and you know it." Have a think about this statement, ignoring the rather nasty "you know it is wrong" part. Look back through some of the conflicts, since the 1960s. Even before the "age of terrorism" there were plenty of examples of modern warfare (tanks, aerial bombing, etc) being deployed against civilians. One example was the bombing of Omani mountain villages by the RAF in the early 1970s, but you can see them all over, including the bombardment of refugee camps in 1982 and later in Bosnia. Like it or not, many Muslims (probably outside Europe) see the current terrorist activity as bringing their terror and fear to the doors of people in the West. You and I consider it abhorrent; but many see it as legitimate war against countries that are invading their territories and indiscriminately attacking civilians.

The litany of atrocities against people who are different from us....and as someone rightly pointed out, the Russians and Chinese did it too....goes back a long way. Remember it was us, the British, who invented concentration camps. You don't have to look back to medieval times to see crushing barbarity.

You and I, and probably most people in this forum, share a disgust at all forms of terrorism, but there's an old adage that one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. I would hope that people would also share the same disgust at the atrocities forced on civilians in Africa, the Middle East, wherever....

In some respects, you are now doing exactly what the terrorists want and they will thank you for it: forcing a differentiation between people who actually don't differ much at all. The terrorists actually want their fellow Muslims isolated and marginalised so they become alienated, feared, despised and cowed by people in their own communities. The terrorists want the mild, moderate, friendly families and their children to eventually seek protection from the terrorists, to support them, to buy into the 'them v us' mentality.

Muslims are pretty much like you and me: trying to earn a crust, trying to bring up kids properly, planning for retirement. There are, at the margins of society, the nutters of all kinds.....religious, political, secular. We should not let the terrorists, the nutters, the evil cause us to demonise others who are a bit different. They certainly should not be allowed to derail compassion and the humanitarian efforts to successfully manage a huge tide of fearful, dispossessed migrants.

Reading back through this, it is possible this will be read as patronising or condescending. I really don't want it to be, but I guess I'd rather that than it was considered aggressive, angry and polarising. Focus on the terrorists, not on Muslims or on people with the surname Reid.

 

[silkyman]

Christians have other ways to kill for religion...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...o-to-war-to-fight-evil-claims-his-mentor.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

 

[Womble98]

You are taking a rather Euro-centric viewpoint. Muslims point to the many civilians killed by drone attacks, by bombing raids, by missile attacks by "coalition forces", most of which are (certainly perceived, by them, to be) Christian. It is what has given terrorists the "Crusader v the righteous" mentality.
In fact, there are plenty of right-wing pastors attacking Muslims. They are no more representative of Christians than the nutcase Islamists.
You are primarily using belief in ancient texts as the denominator for categorisation, and I am saying that is wrong. My earlier post was simply showing that you can equally point to ancient Christian holy texts for snippets of absurdity.

You say "To act as if the number of Christians who do this kind of thing is equivalent to the number of Muslims who do is just so fucking wrong, and you know it." Have a think about this statement, ignoring the rather nasty "you know it is wrong" part. Look back through some of the conflicts, since the 1960s. Even before the "age of terrorism" there were plenty of examples of modern warfare (tanks, aerial bombing, etc) being deployed against civilians. One example was the bombing of Omani mountain villages by the RAF in the early 1970s, but you can see them all over, including the bombardment of refugee camps in 1982 and later in Bosnia. Like it or not, many Muslims (probably outside Europe) see the current terrorist activity as bringing their terror and fear to the doors of people in the West. You and I consider it abhorrent; but many see it as legitimate war against countries that are invading their territories and indiscriminately attacking civilians.

The litany of atrocities against people who are different from us....and as someone rightly pointed out, the Russians and Chinese did it too....goes back a long way. Remember it was us, the British, who invented concentration camps. You don't have to look back to medieval times to see crushing barbarity.

You and I, and probably most people in this forum, share a disgust at all forms of terrorism, but there's an old adage that one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. I would hope that people would also share the same disgust at the atrocities forced on civilians in Africa, the Middle East, wherever....

In some respects, you are now doing exactly what the terrorists want and they will thank you for it: forcing a differentiation between people who actually don't differ much at all. The terrorists actually want their fellow Muslims isolated and marginalised so they become alienated, feared, despised and cowed by people in their own communities. The terrorists want the mild, moderate, friendly families and their children to eventually seek protection from the terrorists, to support them, to buy into the 'them v us' mentality.

Muslims are pretty much like you and me: trying to earn a crust, trying to bring up kids properly, planning for retirement. There are, at the margins of society, the nutters of all kinds.....religious, political, secular. We should not let the terrorists, the nutters, the evil cause us to demonise others who are a bit different. They certainly should not be allowed to derail compassion and the humanitarian efforts to successfully manage a huge tide of fearful, dispossessed migrants.

Reading back through this, it is possible this will be read as patronising or condescending. I really don't want it to be, but I guess I'd rather that than it was considered aggressive, angry and polarising. Focus on the terrorists, not on Muslims or on people with the surname Reid.

But you can't detach the one from the other. You don't go on a suicide mission unless you believe that you will be rewarded in the afterlife. All these jihadists are not simply depressed young men who are fed up of living, they have a genuine belief that their actions will result in them entering the afterlife, and that is why you cannot separate the religion and the terrorism.

As for us inventing concentration camps, yes, that is true, but they were nothing more than dreadfully managed internment camps for civilian populations who were hostile to us. The starvation was not a deliberate policy. It is anachronistic also to bring them into the discussion.

 

[sl1k]

But you can't detach the one from the other. You don't go on a suicide mission unless you believe that you will be rewarded in the afterlife. All these jihadists are not simply depressed young men who are fed up of living, they have a genuine belief that their actions will result in them entering the afterlife, and that is why you cannot separate the religion and the terrorism.

What about the Tibetans who burned themselves alive in protest against China. Did they believe they were going to heaven?

You need to stop pretending this sort of shit is exclusive to Muslims, livin in a proper bubble mayte. Getting tedious af.