Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[Womble98]

You didn't want to talk about statistics yesterday.

I have addressed it above, I must have missed it, had a few better things to do with my time yesterday. Your argument doesn't take anything away from the fact that the majority of Malaysian Muslims believe apostates should die. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm sure Silk has spoken about being brought up Muslim, so he would be a gonner if they had their way.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Maybe not the majority of Malaysians but the majority of Muslims in Malaysia. Still just as shocking.

You don't understand the statistics, that much is clear. Was your behaviour pathetic when you refused to debate it?

 

[Womble98]

You don't understand the statistics, that much is clear. Was your behaviour pathetic when you refused to debate it?

Where did I refuse to debate it? I didn't outright state I wasn't going to discuss it, I didn't post some stupid photo like Silk did. Broken cassette mate.

You said yourself, out of the 64% of Malaysian's who are Muslim, 62% want the death penalty. I'm not sure you realise how statistics work if you can't work out that 62% of the Muslims in Malaysia is a majority.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Where did I refuse to debate it? I didn't outright state I wasn't going to discuss it, I didn't post some stupid photo like Silk did. Broken cassette mate.

You said yourself, out of the 64% of Malaysian's who are Muslim, 62% want the death penalty. I'm not sure you realise how statistics work if you can't work out that 62% of the Muslims in Malaysia is a majority.

It's not a majority of Malaysians though, is it?

 

[sl1k]

You lot are pathetic, you'll make a point and then refuse to debate it. You'll bang on about how religion is evil and all but Islam gets some kind of free pass, the concious bias you guys have is astounding.

Nah mate, you're just making a bizarre one and I refuse to approach an argument where my starting angle by default is an apologist for extremists or "incompatible" 'animals'.

It isn't a discussion on which religion is worse, its a discussion on why Islam by and large is not fit for the 21st century and is not fit for western democracies.

You're being ridiculously disingenuous and the basis of your hypothesis is complete conjecture. You're disregarding everything else historically and are focussing on one piece of the jigsaw like it's THE fucking piece.

 

[Womble98]

I've got a few more stats for you here:

Pew Research (2013):

• Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda.
• Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban.
• 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/[1]

Wenzel Strategies (2012):

• 58% of Muslim-Americans believe criticism of Islam or Muhammad is not protected free speech under the First Amendment.
• 45% believe mockers of Islam should face criminal charges (38% said they should not).
• 12% of Muslim-Americans believe blaspheming Islam should be punishable by death.
• 43% of Muslim-Americans believe people of other faiths have no right to evangelize Muslims.
• 32% of Muslims in America believe that Sharia should be the supreme law of the land.

http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2012/10/31/sixty-percent-of-us-muslims-reject-freedom-of-expression[2]

ICM Poll:

• 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK
• 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ls-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html[3]

Pew Research (2010):

• 82% of Egyptian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
• 70% of Jordanian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
• 42% of Indonesian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
• 82% of Pakistanis favor stoning adulterers
• 56% of Nigerian Muslims favor stoning adulterers

http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/[4]

WZB Berlin Social Science Center:

• 65%% of Muslims in Europe say Sharia is more important than the law of the country they live in.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4092/europe-islamic-fundamentalism[5]

Pew Global (2006)

• 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
• 43% of Nigerian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
• 38% of Lebanese Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
• 15% of Egyptian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.

http://cnsnews.com/node/53865[6]

World Public Opinion (2009)

• 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
• 32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
• 41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
• 38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
• 62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
• 42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf[7]

NOP Research:

• 62% percent of British Muslims say freedom of speech shouldn't be protected
• 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
• 78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06[8]

People Press Surveys

• 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.

http://www.people-press.org/2004/03/16/a-year-after-iraq-war/[9]

Belgian HLN

• 16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam...imjongens-vindt-terrorisme-aanvaardbaar.dhtml[10]

ICM Poll:

• 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.

http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian Muslims Poll Nov 04/Guardian Muslims Nov04.asp[11]

Pew Research (2007):

• 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
• 35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
• 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
• 22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
• 29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).

pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

Al-Jazeera (2006):

• 49.9% of Muslims polled support Osama bin Laden

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden[12]

Populus Poll (2006):

• 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
• 37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target".

http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf[13]

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist[14]

GfK NOP:

• 28% of British Muslims want Britain to be an Islamic state

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf[15]

NOP Research:

• 68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam;

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06[16]

MacDonald Laurier Institute:

• 62% of Muslims want Sharia in Canada (15% say make it mandatory)
• 35% of Canadian Muslims would not repudiate al-Qaeda

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/01/strong-support-for-shariah-in-canada[17]

http://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/much...new-study-of-muslim-public-opinion-in-canada/[18]

al-Arabiya:

• 36% of Arabs polled said the 9/11 attacks were morally justified; 38% disagreed; 26% Unsure

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/09/10/166274.html[19]

Gallup:

• 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified (7% "fully", 6.5% "mostly", 23.1% "partially")

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/just-like-us-really[20]

Policy Exchange:

• 1 in 4 Muslims in the UK have never heard of the Holocaust;
• Only 34% of British Muslims believe the Holocaust ever happened.

http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SURVEY/Site Download.pdf[21]

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

You keep on with your religion of peace and #terrorismhasnoreligion bullshit though.


Don't try and claim though that I described anyone as "animals", that is a lie. If you think that a belief that suicide bombing can be justified, if you think a belief that apostates should die, is acceptable in todays society then fine, but that is ultimately nothing but bizarre

 

[mnb089mnb]

A lot of your arguments are based on "facts" and "statistics" that aren't true. You're then attacking people who call Islam "the religion of peace" and claiming people think suicide bombing and killing apostates is justified. Who is saying that?

You're attacking arguments that no one has even made in this thread and then calling people pathetic for not engaging with you, when you've shown a lack of willingness to address where you've made errors.

It's bizarre behaviour.

 

[sl1k]

Don't try and claim though that I described anyone as "animals", that is a lie.

Well, I never actually claimed dat brah, incompatible was the word in quotation marks

If you think that a belief that suicide bombing can be justified, if you think a belief that apostates should die, is acceptable in todays society then fine, but that is ultimately nothing but bizarre

I just can't think of why you think a Muslim would engage you in reasoned rational debate when you're spewing dross like that. Where's mnb's double face palm.

 

[TomPNE94]

You lot are pathetic, you'll make a point and then refuse to debate it. You'll bang on about how religion is evil and all but Islam gets some kind of free pass, the concious bias you guys have is astounding.


It isn't a discussion on which religion is worse, its a discussion on why Islam by and large is not fit for the 21st century and is not fit for western democracies.

To be quite honest, nobody really wants to debate with you because you are coming across as having a serious issue with Islam and Muslims as a whole.

 

[Womble98]

A lot of your arguments are based on "facts" and "statistics" that aren't true. You're then attacking people who call Islam "the religion of peace" and claiming people think suicide bombing and killing apostates is justified. Who is saying that?

You're attacking arguments that no one has even made in this thread and then calling people pathetic for not engaging with you, when you've shown a lack of willingness to address where you've made errors.

It's bizarre behaviour.

How aren't they true? You didn't disprove any stats. Islam is quite objectively not the religion of peace.

Well, I never actually claimed dat brah, incompatible was the word in quotation marks



I just can't think of why you think a Muslim would engage you in reasoned rational debate when you're spewing dross like that. Where's mnb's double face palm.

To be quite honest, nobody really wants to debate with you because are coming across as having a serious issue with Islam and Muslims as a whole.

I have been to my local mosque a few times because the Muslims there actually are peaceful Muslims who practice what they preach, condemn violence in all examples. I have no issue of them, I wish there were more of them as they probably do more good for the community than my local Church's. But I don't see how people don't understand how Islam is fundamentally quite a violent ideology. Christianity is probably a fundamentally violent ideology but you don't see Christians being anywhere near as violent. Those who dismiss the blatant link between IS and islam are just ignoring reality.

 

[Christian Slater]

Does Christian, George W. Bush, who claimed God was central in his decision making on foreign policy, count when considering ideological murderers? Or does the guise of an official army skew the perception? What about Catholic, Tony Blair?

 

[Womble98]

Does Christian, George W. Bush, who claimed God was central in his decision making on foreign policy, count when considering ideological murderers? Or does the guise of an official army skew the perception? What about Catholic, Tony Blair?

Tony Blair's religion had nothing to do with it. He convinced himself that Iraq had WMD's, as did Bush.

 

[Christian Slater]

That's funny, because when that lie was exposed for what it was the reason changed to "bringing democracy to Iraq", an ideological war by definition.

Going to war and killing millions over resources is excusable though.

 

[Womble98]

That's funny, because when that lie was exposed for what it was the reason changed to "bringing democracy to Iraq", an ideological war by definition.

But not a religious one.

 

[Christian Slater]

What's the difference, an arbitrary title? And George Bush did claim he spoke to God regarding his decision making.

 

[sl1k]

I have been to my local mosque a few times because the Muslims there actually are peaceful Muslims who practice what they preach, condemn violence in all examples.

Is this like your "OH BUT I GOT A MOZLEM FRIEND INNIT"

I have no issue of them, I wish there were more of them as they probably do more good for the community than my local Church's. But I don't see how people don't understand how Islam is fundamentally quite a violent ideology. Christianity is probably a fundamentally violent ideology but you don't see Christians being anywhere near as violent. Those who dismiss the blatant link between IS and islam are just ignoring reality.

The Quran in revelation was memorised and then compiled afterwards, so the chapters aren't actually in order (longest to shortest) making it easy lose context. The prophet was persecuted and chased from the place of his birth, so it's not actually that surprising that alot of violence is mentioned. However, there are also many, many parts of the Quran that speak of how a Muslim must be tolerant, caring of others, respect the laws of the land, that kiling one innocent person to Allah is like you've killed all of humanity yada yada yada etc etc etc

You see, the areas of the world with higher concentrations of Muslims will be in places where education is bad and progress is stagnant to non existant. This is without even getting into the effects colonialism, geo politics, secterianism, lines of brutal dictators yada yada yada etc etc etc

 

[Womble98]

Is this like your "OH BUT I GOT A MOZLEM FRIEND INNIT"



The Quran in revelation was memorised and then compiled afterwards, so the chapters aren't actually in order (longest to shortest) making it easy lose context. The prophet was persecuted and chased from the place of his birth, so it's not actually that surprising that alot of violence is mentioned. However, there are also many, many parts of the Quran that speak of how a Muslim must be tolerant, caring of others, respect the laws of the land, that kiling one innocent person to Allah is like you've killed all of humanity yada yada yada etc etc etc

You see, the areas of the world with higher concentrations of Muslims will be in places where education is bad and progress is stagnant to non existant. This is without even getting into the effects colonialism, geo politics, secterianism, lines of brutal dictators yada yada yada etc etc etc

No, its my "I recognise that not all Muslims are women-suppressing, gay-hating, non-Muslim hating, Jew-hating nutters" moment actually.

I know that Silk, there are plenty of areas of the Koran which are full of peaceful rhetoric. But when the nutters use the violent stuff in it as their motivation for their violence, that doesn't matter. Its worth noting though that our definition of "one innocent person" is very different from fundamentalist Islam's definition of one innocent person. For them, gays, apostates, those who criticise Allah, are not at all innocent and can be killed at will.


It is probably true though that when education levels in Muslim countries go up, secularism will rise. But Islam and its suppression of free speech leads to the stagnation of progress. The middle east used to be at the forefront of intellectual developments, medicine, mathmatics. Not anymore though.

 

[sl1k]

No, its my "I recognise that not all Muslims are women-suppressing, gay-hating, non-Muslim hating, Jew-hating nutters" moment actually.

I know that Silk, there are plenty of areas of the Koran which are full of peaceful rhetoric. But when the nutters use the violent stuff in it as their motivation for their violence, that doesn't matter. Its worth noting though that our definition of "one innocent person" is very different from fundamentalist Islam's definition of one innocent person. For them, gays, apostates, those who criticise Allah, are not at all innocent and can be killed at will.


It is probably true though that when education levels in Muslim countries go up, secularism will rise. But Islam and its suppression of free speech leads to the stagnation of progress. The middle east used to be at the forefront of intellectual developments, medicine, mathmatics. Not anymore though.

Can we agree then, that environmental factors have played a massive part in modern day terrorism and that, though Quranic texts can provide the vehicle for the evil and opportunistic to drive forward agendas, it is not the sole fundamental reason to why sick orgnisations like ISIS exist?

Education and the opportunity to LIVE I think will be key. As far away as that dystopia might seem, giving up will fuck the world for all of us.

 

[Womble98]

Can we agree then, that environmental factors have played a massive part in modern day terrorism and that, though Quranic texts can provide the vehicle for the evil and opportunistic to drive forward agendas, it is not the sole fundamental reason to why sick orgnisations like ISIS exist?

Education and the opportunity to LIVE I think will be key. As far away as that dystopia might seem, giving up will fuck the world for all of us.

Yes, environmental factors play a massive part in every thing in the world, and terrorism can't be explained without them, I thought that was quite obvious. These factors account for the rise of IS, but these ideas always existed in countries like Saudi Arabia, and always were accepted there, and they are ultimately IS's main motivation.

 

[blade1889]

May get shot down for this but thinking out loud...

Parallels to the rise of ISIS and the Nazi's, anybody? Both used religion and deprivation as a way to gain supporters and power and an excuse to commit terrible atrocities.

I dont blame innocent followers of the religion in either case. I dont even blame the religion itself. I blame complete and utter wankers in both cases using anything they can to excuse their vile ideals.

 

[Womble98]

May get shot down for this but thinking out loud...

Parallels to the rise of ISIS and the Nazi's, anybody? Both used religion and deprivation as a way to gain supporters and power and an excuse to commit terrible atrocities.

I dont blame innocent followers of the religion in either case. I dont even blame the religion itself. I blame complete and utter wankers in both cases using anything they can to excuse their vile ideals.

Deprivation/ victimhood yes. Religion no. Nazism wasn't founded on the ideals of Christianity, in fact Nazi's tried with their own religion which was some bizarre cultlike worship. Many of those who opposed Nazism in Germany did so on religious ideals.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Deprivation/ victimhood yes. Religion no. Nazism wasn't founded on the ideals of Christianity, in fact Nazi's tried with their own religion which was some bizarre cultlike worship. Many of those who opposed Nazism in Germany did so on religious ideals.

The majority acquiesced. Religious anti-Semitism provided the founding block on which the racial/biological branch grew.

 

[Christian Slater]

Why has my Godwin's Law post been removed?

 

[sl1k]

Why has my Godwin's Law post been removed?

This is no place for your radical preaching Christian.

I'm disappointed with the elobaration on my use of "sick" being deleted too. It was pretty accurate.

 

[TheMinsterman]

When was the last time a Christian went and blew himself up in a mosque? When was the last time a vicar described the west as the enemy, as something which should be reviled and hated. Yes, the bible says that stuff but do any people in the western world believe it? Do the Christian refugees practice it? The Catholics certainly don't, as the Catechism makes it clear that it isn't allowed. It is this bullshit which completely ignores the reality. In the middle east the biggest victims of all this shit are the Christians who have lived there for centuries and are being driven out.

To act as if the number of Christians who do this kind of thing is equivalent to the number of Muslims who do is just so fucking wrong, and you know it. Your last sentence is false as well, there just isn't a substantial number who believe this stuff, there is the occasional nutjob and that is all.They might view those acts as sinful but with the majority of the world's church's speaking out against the death penalty, there is no way in hell that they actually practice it.

Christianity had its day of barbarism in the medieval/renaissance periods, and at this point is an overwhelmingly peaceful religion. There may be views about homosexuality which are bigoted however there is not a significant number of people calling for the gays to be executed. Islam seems to be however about 700 years behind the rest of the world.

When you talk about Christianity, you seem to entirely focus interestingly on Western Christianity in democratised (largely) countries which are considered highly developed and relatively secular in most cases whilst lumping ALL Muslims into one homogenous mass which conveniently ignores some of their more developed societies. Here's the difficult of doing this when you're trying to argue "one is worse than the other" when only focusing on narrow generalisations.

Here's some lovely things Christians have done recently outside of the narrow sphere of Western Christianity in less developed regions.

In February 2014 peacekeepers attempted to escort Muslums out of the capital of the Central African Republic in response to attacks which amounted to, in the views of human rights groups, ethnic cleansing of Muslims. Groups of Christian fanatics have attacked and butchered Muslims, burned their property and mosques to the ground and committed disgusting acts of violence. When they attempted to guide families to safety they were blocked by groups shouting "we're going to kill you all" at Muslims. Two days after international peacekeepers escorted Muslims out of the capital Bangui Christian militiamen publically beheaded a Muslim man.

The U.N. went on record to suggest that the estimates of 3-6000 dead were a "radical under estimate" of the actual number of people killed. To put this into perspective, the numbers of deaths in Iraq as a result of the rise of ISIS was roughly around 8,000 in the same year and those figures include casualties as a result of the Iraqi government coalition as well.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...g_of_muslims_in_central_african_republic.html
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/2014/

We all remember the whole Kony 2012 stuff, well the Lord's Resistance Army is a terror group heavily influenced by Christianity operating in an area with a reputation for extreme religious views. For example, they are involved in Uganda (of "they eat the poop" fame who tried to make homosexuality punishable by death). In 2013 it was reported that over the course of the groups lifespan from 1987 it alone responsible for more than 100,000 deaths. Between 2008 and 2011 they killed more than 2,400 people in CAR, DR Congo and South Sudan. This ignores the amount of rape, child recruitment and general destruction they've caused, much like ISIS.

http://www.theresolve.org/the-lra-crisis/key-statistics/

My point? Extremism based on religious grounds thrives in regions trapped in turmoil, it's unfair to try and paint Islam as one homogenous mass of intolerant bastards incompatible with Western lifestyles whilst being able to separate Western Christianity from extreme African Christianity when talking about how it doesn't cause violence on large scales like ISIS et al anymore. It's demonstrably false. We're just way more focused on Islamic extremism because we're the target and live under the ill informed belief that it is some how MORE violent simply because it's the major focus of our attention.

 

[G-Dragon]

Mentally disabled six-year-old Syrian migrant is found abandoned in a Turkish coal bunker after his family tied up his legs and left him to die.
Not the kind of Refugees I would want.

 

[TheMinsterman]

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-06-25/tesco-machete-attack-man-guilty-of-attempted-murder/

Not the kind of people who are born in Britain I want.

 

[Womble98]

When you talk about Christianity, you seem to entirely focus interestingly on Western Christianity in democratised (largely) countries which are considered highly developed and relatively secular in most cases whilst lumping ALL Muslims into one homogenous mass which conveniently ignores some of their more developed societies. Here's the difficult of doing this when you're trying to argue "one is worse than the other" when only focusing on narrow generalisations.

Here's some lovely things Christians have done recently outside of the narrow sphere of Western Christianity in less developed regions.

In February 2014 peacekeepers attempted to escort Muslums out of the capital of the Central African Republic in response to attacks which amounted to, in the views of human rights groups, ethnic cleansing of Muslims. Groups of Christian fanatics have attacked and butchered Muslims, burned their property and mosques to the ground and committed disgusting acts of violence. When they attempted to guide families to safety they were blocked by groups shouting "we're going to kill you all" at Muslims. Two days after international peacekeepers escorted Muslims out of the capital Bangui Christian militiamen publically beheaded a Muslim man.

The U.N. went on record to suggest that the estimates of 3-6000 dead were a "radical under estimate" of the actual number of people killed. To put this into perspective, the numbers of deaths in Iraq as a result of the rise of ISIS was roughly around 8,000 in the same year and those figures include casualties as a result of the Iraqi government coalition as well.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...g_of_muslims_in_central_african_republic.html
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/2014/

We all remember the whole Kony 2012 stuff, well the Lord's Resistance Army is a terror group heavily influenced by Christianity operating in an area with a reputation for extreme religious views. For example, they are involved in Uganda (of "they eat the poop" fame who tried to make homosexuality punishable by death). In 2013 it was reported that over the course of the groups lifespan from 1987 it alone responsible for more than 100,000 deaths. Between 2008 and 2011 they killed more than 2,400 people in CAR, DR Congo and South Sudan. This ignores the amount of rape, child recruitment and general destruction they've caused, much like ISIS.

http://www.theresolve.org/the-lra-crisis/key-statistics/

My point? Extremism based on religious grounds thrives in regions trapped in turmoil, it's unfair to try and paint Islam as one homogenous mass of intolerant bastards incompatible with Western lifestyles whilst being able to separate Western Christianity from extreme African Christianity when talking about how it doesn't cause violence on large scales like ISIS et al anymore. It's demonstrably false. We're just way more focused on Islamic extremism because we're the target and live under the ill informed belief that it is some how MORE violent simply because it's the major focus of our attention.

To be honest I think that is a fair criticism. I wouldn't want Christians who believe those nutty kind of things coming to the UK either though, and I don't think many of the refugees in this crisis are from the CAR.

 

[Womble98]

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-06-25/tesco-machete-attack-man-guilty-of-attempted-murder/

Not the kind of people who are born in Britain I want.

We don't get to decide who is born here, we do however get to decide who moves here.

 

[EvertonPaul]

Thought this was quite good for the bbc;