Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Despite Bush being one of the US' stupidest presidents he was clever enough to deceive 99% of the population into thinking it wasn't him who destroyed the twin towers. #undercovergenius

lol

 

[Alty]

This is really ahistorical. The reason for the rise of radical Islam as a mode of political organising is because of the failure of other political projects as liberationary/counter-imperialist forces. The US undermined Communism in the Arab world, the United Arab Republic and Nasserist pan-Arabism and Nationalism in Arab states/neo-Ba'athism. Obviously the US is not the sole reason for any of those projects failing - some of them - neo-Ba'athism for example - were very bad ideas anyway.

Islamism/Salafism are bad (and slightly different, but related, things), but they're also seductive because (like fascism) they appeal to the social conservatism of rural communities while maintaining the status of regional elites who go along with it. It's successful in terms of propagating itself (not in any sense as a liberationary force) because it's well funded. I would argue that the more sectarian/pro-Saudi strands are viewed as much less threatening to Western interests than Communism or Pan-Arabism were and that's why there's been very little effort to stem that funding - the more obvious Qutbist/revolutionary strands were clearly a threat to Western interests though.

kind of feel that people who just talk about "religion" - either to say it's all about religion or it is a twisted perversion of it - are missing the point. This is the failure of Harris/Dawkins - they view religion as brainwashing, without ever really exploring what the conditions are for those ideas to be seductive. Cos that would involve critically appraising the recent history of the middle east.

Think you've got to realise that the predominant way racism acts in the west is structural and institutional rather than individual. Don't look at it as "white people not liking brown people" but as white-supremacy hard-coded into our society. Migrant communities stick together partly because they need to - in that the best way to resist violence from the state is collectively.

No-one's saying that Islamism (either in its Salafist or Qutbist strains) is a direct response to Western Imperialism. Well, Stop The War probably are, but everyone stopped paying attention to them years ago. Of course they would exist - less as a reaction to "Western Values" (and it's Orientalist and ahistorical to pretend that LGBT rights or women's liberation could be considered "Western Values" - not, of course, that some Islamists haven't claimed exactly that) and more as a socially conservative opposition to domestic liberation movements.

But because genuinely liberationary movements such as socialism were undermined by the West - normally by bolstering religious ultraconservatives - Islamism becomes the only political ideology challenging in many cases a brutal status quo. If you want economic or political justice in much of the middle East and North Africa - the only groups offering tangible (albeit deeply flawed) solutions and resistance to the status quo are Islamists.

Yeah, maybe Nazis hated Jazz music, maybe ISIS hate Eastenders. But it wasn't a loathing for Bessie Smith or Count Basie that drove Germans to support National Socialism but rather long-term economic malaise, the failures/suppression/demonisation of alternative political projects and seductive promises of national renaissance. Similarly, the Middle-East and North Africa has seen sustained economic stagnation, brutal dictatorships, war, political repression. Without economic and social justice - reactionary ideologies flourish. Western imperialism is of course only a part of that - but it is a significant part.

Obviously we don't always agree entirely but I think these posts taken together makes for a fairly decent appraisal. Just a couple of points I'd make.

You're right that to simply say "it's religion - these terrorists are brainwashed" is not enough and that thoe who engage in this kind of reductive reasoning are not really adding anything to the discussion. And I agree that Dawkins skirts dangerously close to this approach. But I don't think the same is true of many other commentators (Harris included) whose views are deliberately misrepresented repeatedly. Yes the plight of "your people" - even if you're actually born and brought up in a developed and successful country like the UK - might drive you to extreme measures to help them. But I think the religious element of this kind of terrorism is significant. We're talking here about a death cult. People who believe that God is on their side, that mass murder/rape/torture is necessary and that they'll be heading to paradise once they've committed the most heinous acts imaginable. This isn't the IRA or ETA, who have clear territorial demands and who employ some sort of logic in their operations (however cruel the results could be, on occasion).

I'd also take issue with your point about migrant communities having to stick together out of fear of state violence. I think Ebeneezer Goode's take is more convincing. Why is the vast majority of the British expat community in Spain based in Andalucia when there are loads of perfectly pleasant regions around the country? I don't think it has a thing to do with state violence. I think it's to do with people wanting to live amongst 'their own' and to enjoy what could more or less be described as a British way of life while taking advantage of the benefits of living in Spain (primarily the weather, in that case...with people moving from the developing world to Europe, it's about economic opportunity, principally). I don't think it's wrong to be concerned about certain communities being painfully slow to adopt what most people would think of as modern European values.

I don't see any end to this, unfortunately. Rational debate continues to be impeded by genuine racists on one side and pathetic people who'll cry racist the second they hear something they don't like on the other, and I don't believe the West has any clear military or political strategy in the Middle East at all.

*Sigh*

 

[nousername]

I'd also take issue with your point about migrant communities having to stick together out of fear of state violence. I think Ebeneezer Goode's take is more convincing. Why is the vast majority of the British expat community in Spain based in Andalucia when there are loads of perfectly pleasant regions around the country? I don't think it has a thing to do with state violence. I think it's to do with people wanting to live amongst 'their own' and to enjoy what could more or less be described as a British way of life while taking advantage of the benefits of living in Spain (primarily the weather, in that case...with people moving from the developing world to Europe, it's about economic opportunity, principally). I don't think it's wrong to be concerned about certain communities being painfully slow to adopt what most people would think of as modern European values.

Correct.

I've lived and worked abroad in a few places now and in each case I've usually developed a circle of friends and associates who are, with a few exceptions, primarily Brits. Observing others, it's usually been a similar scenario.

It's not been to defend ourselves against structural state terror, I'm not sure it's even for ethnic reasons either, I think it's - partly at least - linguistic.

One thing I noticed when working in Macau (ex Portuguese colony in China) was that the Portuguese speaking community was remarkably mixed: race, nationality etc. didn't appear to be an issue, which I thought was quite interesting. This is not to say racism doesn't exist of course, but that language is so critical to integration, and often trumps a lot of other factors.

Ironically it was in New Zealand (almost carbon copy of UK cultures and norms) where I barely made friends with any locals and almost exclusively socialised with people from Glasgow... Ha!

In short I have no issue with cultural ghettos. Where these places do have problems it will run much deeper than the fact a whole crowd of the same people live in the same place.

Good posts earlier Ian - I think you've hit the nail on head regarding some of the issues in the Middle East that drive terrorism, where Islam is good outlet for regional grievances.

From the bits and pieces I've read it appears that (a) years of inept governments in the region (partly Western problem) and (b) a demographic boom in the population of young men who are prone to this kind violence, has created a kind of sweet spot (or vacuum?) where this sort of behaviour can flourish.

 

[Freakyteeth]

Ironically it was in New Zealand (almost carbon copy of UK cultures and norms)

Must have been a while ago.

 

[Womble98]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35893123

Glasgow mosque leader praises extremist killer

Spoiler

"The religious leader at Scotland's biggest mosque has praised an extremist who was executed for committing murder in Pakistan, the BBC can reveal. Imam Maulana Habib Ur Rehman of Glasgow Central Mosque used the messaging platform WhatsApp to show his support for Mumtaz Qadri. Qadri was hanged in February after murdering a local politician who opposed strict blasphemy laws. In a statement the imam said the messages had been taken out of context. He said that he was expressing his opposition to capital punishment. In messages seen by the BBC, Imam Maulana Habib Ur Rehman says that he is "disturbed" and "upset" at the news of Qadri's execution, before writing "rahmatullahi alai", a religious blessing usually given to devout Muslims and meaning may God's mercy be upon him. In another, he says: "I cannot hide my pain today. A true Muslim was punished for doing which [sic] the collective will of the nation failed to carry out." Religious guidance Maulana Habib Ur Rehman is the most senior imam at Glasgow Central Mosque, a role which involves leading prayers and giving religious guidance and teachings. The BBC has confirmed with members of the group that the messages come from the imam. Qadri was employed as a bodyguard for the governor of Punjab province in Pakistan, Salman Taseer, before turning on him in 2011 and shooting him 28 times. After the shooting Qadri reportedly told journalists that he was "proud" and that he had killed a "blasphemer"."]

He wasn't alone in expressing this opinion. Leading Bradford imam went to his funeral and supported Qadri. These aren't religious leaders on the fringe of British Islam, they are the so called moderates, so called peaceful Muslims who don't support extremist ideas. I think we can safely say that isn't true. You only have to go on the 5pillars facebook page to see hundreds of British Muslims expressing their support for Qadri.

Is this not incitement, essentially sanctioning murdering anyone who blasphemes against the prophet?

Meanwhile, the moron who tweeted about confronting a Muslim women has been arrested. Since when was being a dick a crime? We can't have such a two-faced approach to freedom of speech, either it exists, and everyone can freely speak as long as they are not inciting others to commit violence, or it has parameters, which need to be clearly defined- they currently are not.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 1h1 hour ago
Explosion heard in Schaerbeek, Brussels, during police operation, media reports say

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 1m1 minute ago
Brussels anti-terrorism raid over, mayor says, with one suspect arrested, slightly injured

 

[Womble98]

Within the West, a Muslim community that upholds Islam in the best manner would be one that offered a distinct alternative to people in their lives to the harms caused by capitalism and liberal values.

What harm do liberal values cause?

http://5pillarsuk.com/2016/03/24/reflecting-after-brussels-the-solution-is-more-islam-not-less/

No thanks.

 

[Jockney]

What harm do liberal values cause?

http://5pillarsuk.com/2016/03/24/reflecting-after-brussels-the-solution-is-more-islam-not-less/

No thanks.

you can have socially left-wing values and be opposed to the central tenets of liberalism. i fucking despise liberalism.

 

[Womble98]

you can have socially left-wing values and be opposed to the central tenets of liberalism. i fucking despise liberalism.

If someone asked me what liberal values were I would say freedom of speech, democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of expression. What would you say?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

you can have socially left-wing values and be opposed to the central tenets of liberalism. i fucking despise liberalism.

Which central tenets of liberalism do you despise?

 

[Alty]

If someone asked me what liberal values were I would say freedom of speech, democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of expression. What would you say?

Economic liberalism and social liberalism are two very different things. They come from entirely different perspectives in terms of their views of freedom (i.e. The freedom from vs the freedom to).

I don't like liberals either. Or perhaps more accurately - I don't like people who self-define as liberals.

As an aside, I seem to remember Ian championing the liberal cause a few years back. How things change.

 

[Jockney]

If someone asked me what liberal values were I would say freedom of speech, democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of expression. What would you say?

i would contextualise those values and how they are practised within the political framework provided, which is what the author did implicitly.

 

[Womble98]

The author argues that Islam provides the best framework for society, I'd have to disagree. Muslim countries in the world are among the poorest, the most violent, the most lawless, the most conservative and the most unhappy.

 

[Jockney]

The author argues that Islam provides the best framework for society, I'd have to disagree. Muslim countries in the world are among the poorest, the most violent, the most lawless, the most conservative and the most unhappy.

no, he says that historically Muslim countries should strive towards interpretations of Islam that emphasise cultural growth and progressive self-empowerment. He's specifically arguing against the misappropriation of Islam for political purposes by both sides of the conflict.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Apostasy would be an even better route to take.

 

[Womble98]

no, he says that historically Muslim countries should strive towards interpretations of Islam that emphasise cultural growth and progressive self-empowerment. He's specifically arguing against the misappropriation of Islam for political purposes by both sides of the conflict.

Name me an Islamic country which has successfully done that. It doesn't work because those kind of ilvalues aren't the same as the ones the Koran calls flr

 

[Jockney]

Name me an Islamic country which has successfully done that. It doesn't work because those kind of ilvalues aren't the same as the ones the Koran calls flr

Plenty of Islamic countries have been able to mould their own political destinies in whichever ways they've seen fit, given the right conditions. Conversely, secular projects in Iran, Egypt and Tunisia brought nothing but misery for the majority of those populations, and ultimately died a death.

 

[Alty]

Plenty of Islamic countries have been able to mould their own political destinies in whichever ways they've seen fit, given the right conditions. Conversely, secular projects in Iran, Egypt and Tunisia brought nothing but misery for the majority of those populations, and ultimately died a death.

Out of interest, what do you think is the most successful Muslim-majority country?

 

[Jockney]

Out of interest, what do you think is the most successful Muslim-majority country?

I don't think there should be any prescriptive metric, so I don't know. I also don't think my personal values are particularly relevant in those discussions.

 

[Womble98]

Muslim shopkeeper stabbed to death in what has been described as a religiously motivated attack. Apparently the victim was an Ahmadi Muslim. Wonder who did it.

 

[Stevencc]

Where?

 

[Alty]

I don't think there should be any prescriptive metric, so I don't know. I also don't think my personal values are particularly relevant in those discussions.

Moral relativism then? If a significant portion of people there like it well enough then it's the appropriate system of government?

 

[Jockney]

Moral relativism then? If a significant portion of people there like it well enough then it's the appropriate system of government?

i think the situation has reached a point where that is the only viable option. we are complicit in their suffering. we don't have the right to dictate to any popular movement within those countries vis-a-vis moral and political philosophy. i mean, just look at what happened after the saur revolution in afghanistan: fucked and betrayed by all sides, not least by the Soviets and the US and Saudis. They should defo give us the wide berth if they have any choice in the matter.

 

[Womble98]

Where?

Glasgow. Police have apparently confirmed that the attacker was also Muslim. For those who don't know, Ahmadi are considered a heretical sect by most Muslims and they fled from Pakistan where they are still muedered and oppressed, with the state doing nothing to protect them.

So if what has been said is true, one Muslim killed an Ahmadi because he was the wrong type of religion. What has that got to do with western intervention or hypocrisy? Sweet FA. You can't blame this one on us.

 

[sl1k]

 

[DarkSithLord]

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 1h1 hour ago
Riot police enter Place de la Bourse in #Brussels after far-right protesters gather http://bbc.in/1q9ieQW

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 1h1 hour ago
Police in Brussels use water cannon on far-right protesters who disrupted gathering remembering bomb victims http://bbc.in/1UUMVES

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 1h1 hour ago
Riot police fire water cannon at far-right protesters in Place de la Bourse #Brussels http://bbc.in/1UQuD8X

 

[Womble98]

Thanks for the mature response.

 

[sl1k]

Any time donny bwoi

 

[silkyman]

More than 70 people, mostly children, murdered in Lahore as suicide bombers hit a park aiming to kill Christians.

I'm sorry but religion in its fucking entirety can go suck a bag of dicks.

If there is an afterlife then any deity, any deity at all worth worshipping, would ensure people who do this spend eternity being raped by gorillas with cocks made of barbed wire.

Any deity that wouldn't punish people like that in the most sadistically painful way imaginable isn't worth bothering with.

Stop basing your morals and ideologies on shit that was written before fucking Beowulf.

When the base texts in your fucking life predate the heavy plough and horse collar (even more so if it predates the fucking fall of Rome) then you are doing something wrong.

 

[Womble98]

More than 70 people, mostly children, murdered in Lahore as suicide bombers hit a park aiming to kill Christians.

I'm sorry but religion in its fucking entirety can go suck a bag of dicks.

If there is an afterlife then any deity, any deity at all worth worshipping, would ensure people who do this spend eternity being raped by gorillas with cocks made of barbed wire.

Any deity that wouldn't punish people like that in the most sadistically painful way imaginable isn't worth bothering with.

Stop basing your morals and ideologies on shit that was written before fucking Beowulf.

When the base texts in your fucking life predate the heavy plough and horse collar (even more so if it predates the fucking fall of Rome) then you are doing something wrong.

Don't blame all religions for one religions insanity.