Confirmed Transfers Thread 17/18

[SALTIRE]

 

[St. Juste]

Not sure, but based on previous seasons I'd say they might play centre back.

I doubt they'll play all of the time, I think they're better but not by a large margin. There's also a large chance Lindelof will not do well, in which case Smalling will probably play.

When has he not been the first choice right back recently and when has Valencia playing right back decreases Shaw's chances of starting?

Er, they have both played right back in their careers (Jones, perhaps even mostly at right back) and Man Utd have just signed a new £30 million centre back this season - and signed another one last season. Unless Man Utd play 3 at the back that's two spots for two centre halves, and Smalling and Jones will be (generously) 3rd and 4th choice - although Carrick and Blind have also played there.

If this was such a large chance, they probably wouldn't have signed him.

As mentioned before, I was talking about the chances of Jones and Smalling starts - not Shaw.

Also - remember when this site and the media insisted Hart was World Class and one of the best goalkeepers in the world? At the age of 30 Man City can't even give him away for free, and have to pay for another team to take him on. Quite an incredible fall from grace, seems to be happening to quite a few English internationals now - almost as if they were bigged up for too much.

 

[epic73]

If this was such a large chance, they probably wouldn't have signed him.

With any player, especially young players, there's always a risk that they won't do well, look at Di Maria and Falcao.

seems to be happening to quite a few English internationals now - almost as if they were bigged up for too much.

I agree that many English players are overhyped, I just didn't agree with Jones and Smalling.

 

[St. Juste]

With any player, especially young players, there's always a risk that they won't do well, look at Di Maria and Falcao.

I agree that many English players are overhyped, I just didn't agree with Jones and Smalling.

You don't think Jones and Smalling are overhyped? Possibly, nobody seems to rate them any more, but look at the fawning of "Rolls Royce" Phil Jones when he first emerged. To say he hasn't quite hit those heights is an understatement, he's massively underperformed relative to what pundits were expecting.

Because he isn't, and never was, that good.

 

[Stevencc]

Er, they have both played right back in their careers (Jones, perhaps even mostly at right back) and Man Utd have just signed a new £30 million centre back this season - and signed another one last season. Unless Man Utd play 3 at the back that's two spots for two centre halves, and Smalling and Jones will be (generously) 3rd and 4th choice - although Carrick and Blind have also played there.

If this was such a large chance, they probably wouldn't have signed him.

As mentioned before, I was talking about the chances of Jones and Smalling starts - not Shaw.

Also - remember when this site and the media insisted Hart was World Class and one of the best goalkeepers in the world? At the age of 30 Man City can't even give him away for free, and have to pay for another team to take him on. Quite an incredible fall from grace, seems to be happening to quite a few English internationals now - almost as if they were bigged up for too much.

Was it Pagnell again?

 

[epic73]

You don't think Jones and Smalling are overhyped? Possibly, nobody seems to rate them any more, but look at the fawning of "Rolls Royce" Phil Jones when he first emerged. To say he hasn't quite hit those heights is an understatement, he's massively underperformed relative to what pundits were expecting.

Because he isn't, and never was, that good.

I don't remember the "fawning of 'Rolls Royce' Phil Jones" because I didn't follow football then as much as I do now. However, judging by statistics and matches I've watched in the last few seasons, he's seemed consistently decent. I agree that he never has been, is, or will be close to world class but I think he can fight for a starting spot or at least backup to Lindelof/Bailly.

 

[St. Juste]

Was it Pagnell again?

Think it was pretty much everyone to be honest.

I don't remember the "fawning of 'Rolls Royce' Phil Jones" because I didn't follow football then as much as I do now. However, judging by statistics and matches I've watched in the last few seasons, he's seemed consistently decent. I agree that he never has been, is, or will be close to world class but I think he can fight for a starting spot or at least backup to Lindelof/Bailly.

I don't think he has much chance of starting ahead of either but being 3rd - 4th choice? Sure, he will have a career commensurate with, say, John O'Shea, Wes Brown or Mikael Silvestre. That is the level he is at.

 

[Bilo]

Think it was pretty much everyone to be honest.

What the fuck. I can't even think of one single person on here who ever called Joe Hart world class. Also, the exact phrase "Joe Hart is world class" gives you a grand total of 738 hits on google. 738! So maybe you're just full of shit.

 

[Renegade]

I honestly don't remember a consensus of Joe Hart being one of the best keepers in the world. In the media or on this website. One of the best keepers in the Premier League? Maybe, but not that regularly mentioned in the same breath as Courtois, Lloris, De Gea and Cech in even just the PL. He's a good goalkeeper - I think he has found his level at a team that should be competing for the Europa League to mid-table spots.

EDIT: Bilo beat me to it.

 

[Stevencc]

At least it was semi-believable when he used to pretend that it was one or two culprits that had made outrageous comments about English players.

This new shtick about everyone having said things they didn't might be harder to sell.

 

[Bilo]

At least it was semi-believable when he used to pretend that it was one or two culprits that had made outrageous comments about English players.

This new shtick about everyone having said things they didn't might be harder to sell.

Remember when every Scottish person everywhere said they were gonna win the 2014 world cup?? Oh my those were the days man.

 

[St. Juste]

Sorry, it looks like I've undersold Hart - the media instead thought he was the best goalkeeper in the world:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...euer-Joe-Hart-best-goalkeeper-world-time.html

It's the same as Pickford being better than Donnarumma, truly astonishing. And Adrian Durham is not alone:

"The former Three Lions keeper believes current No 1 Hart is yet to prove himself at the highest level, despite Wayne Rooney and Arsenal's Wojciech Szczesny claiming that the Manchester City man is the already the most talented stopper in world football.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/wo...-World-Cup-called-one-best.html#ixzz4nH5F8pSM
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook"

Fantastic. Of course, everyone on this forum no doubt thought he was a mid table keeper all along, and the media are just wind up merchants. Somehow, they didn't fall into the hype.

Next for the chastening? Jack Wilshere.

 

[Renegade]

Aye, a few overtly nationalist reporters thinking he was world-class means pretty much everyone was on board with it. Of course. I don't even think silkyman thought he was world class, maybe he remembers what the consensus was as a Macclesfield Town supporter.

 

[Stevencc]

Still no quotes from the forum, interesting.

 

[JimJams]

Arsenal fans rated Wilshere. The rest of us, not so much.
I'd have him at Leicester though if he weren't made of peanut brittle.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Arsenal fans rated Wilshere. The rest of us, not so much.
I'd have him at Leicester though if he weren't made of peanut brittle.

Wilshere's issues aren't his talent, and many hyped foreign midfield imports fell by the wayside at Arsenal in favour of Wilshere keeping his place for many years. Until his most recent injuries. If he now goes off to Serie A then good luck to him. Juste tells us it's a better league anyway!!

 

[Renegade]

Still no quotes from the forum, interesting.

http://www.onefootballforum.co.uk/index.php?search/7422336/&q=Joe+Hart+"world+class"&o=date

I like that he was being called Joke Hart before his fall from grace. And in an England thread. Though I did call Wilshere England's second best midfielder in that thread, maybe I shouldn't have revealed this information.

 

[St. Juste]

Wilshere's issues aren't his talent, and many hyped foreign midfield imports fell by the wayside at Arsenal in favour of Wilshere keeping his place for many years. Until his most recent injuries. If he now goes off to Serie A then good luck to him. Juste tells us it's a better league anyway!!

When and where?

Looks like nobody on this forum ever thought Hart was World Class, and all thought he was a bog standard Prem keeper that couldn't be given away for free - glad to concede on that, you were all right about him all along. He's rubbish.

As for Wilshere, ditto, although raved about incessantly on the media this whole forum thought he was a bit rubbish and not an international standard player.

You guys are knocking them out the park here - what do you think of Stones? Will Man City be able to give him away for free in 2 / 3 years or will they have to pay part of his wages?

 

[GodsGift]

You're losing the plot, Hugh.

 

[Stevencc]

http://www.onefootballforum.co.uk/index.php?search/7422336/&q=Joe+Hart+"world+class"&o=date

I like that he was being called Joke Hart before his fall from grace. And in an England thread. Though I did call Wilshere England's second best midfielder in that thread, maybe I shouldn't have revealed this information.

Ouch, good work Rene.

Case closed.

 

[epic73]

It's the same as Pickford being better than Donnarumma

Last season, Pickford made over 5 saves per game. Donnarumma made 3.55.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

When and where?

You've always been a big opponent down the years of the reoccurring 'English clubs in Europe' argument about Spanish, Italian and German clubs having an easier time of things domestically. You've always been a big opponent of the whole 'best league in the world' moniker arguing it's nothing like that. I don't think I'm putting words in your mouth here. Are you now saying you think the PL is a stronger league than Serie A?

As for Wilshere, ditto, although raved about incessantly on the media this whole forum thought he was a bit rubbish and not an international standard player.

Having seen Wilshere (below his career best but more or less fit at least) with my own eyes on a weekly basis over a season - I feel fairly well evidenced in saying: that he's not 'a bit rubbish', that he certainly is an 'international standard player' - though I'm not sure he gets into the English midfield now, despite certainly doing so when fitter. I'm not sure what his best position on the field is, which doesn't help matters. His career will go down as not reaching the heights his talent might have allowed in better circumstances. Nobody could have several month chunks injured every year or so throughout their career and reach their max potential. I think that's obvious.

Football, as life, is not black and white or in a fixed state. Players progress and regress for all sorts of reasons and at all sorts of rates. As a former player at my club I'll be interested to follow JW's career, especially if he gives Italy a crack. I highly respect the visible enthusiasm he showed for his time here, when it might have been easier to see it as an easy gig beneath him. It shows the character of the man.

You guys are knocking them out the park here - what do you think of Stones? Will Man City be able to give him away for free in 2 / 3 years or will they have to pay part of his wages?

As a central defender? I wasn't sure about him there even at Everton. I'd have preferred for England's sake for his career to be directed into midfield, and I think he'd be very good there indeed. But then I'm not a highly paid Premier League/FA coach or manager,. and they all seem to think he's a defender.

 

[JimJams]

Football, as life, is not black and white .

Bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?

 

[SALTIRE]

I honestly don't remember a consensus of Joe Hart being one of the best keepers in the world. In the media or on this website. One of the best keepers in the Premier League? Maybe, but not that regularly mentioned in the same breath as Courtois, Lloris, De Gea and Cech in even just the PL. He's a good goalkeeper - I think he has found his level at a team that should be competing for the Europa League to mid-table spots.

EDIT: Bilo beat me to it.

I seem to remember some tv commentators telling us all he was in the top three keepers in the world which I always found laughable.

 

[JimJams]

He definitely got hyped in the media. I thought he could go on to be among the top keepers in Europe. But he sort of hit a snag point. However his demise wouldnt be nearly as severe if Man City had appointed just about any other manager. I dont think anyone prioritizes a ball playing keeper to the degree that Pep does. I think that's emphasized a lot when it's arguably Harts biggest weakness and Peps biggest desire in a keeper skillset.
At Torino he did alright in spells, but he made mistakes that cost the team games. We call that 'the Mignolet effect'.

 

[Renegade]

I seem to remember some tv commentators telling us all he was in the top three keepers in the world which I always found laughable.

Consensus being the operative word in my post. There are always jingoistic wingnuts who will rate average players of their national team amongst the best in the world. I reckon I could find a few 'Kleberson is the future of Brazilian football' articles if I cherry picked hard enough.

 

[St. Juste]

Last season, Pickford made over 5 saves per game. Donnarumma made 3.55.

Relevance? What part of that statistic indicates he's a better goalkeeper?

You've always been a big opponent down the years of the reoccurring 'English clubs in Europe' argument about Spanish, Italian and German clubs having an easier time of things domestically. You've always been a big opponent of the whole 'best league in the world' moniker arguing it's nothing like that. I don't think I'm putting words in your mouth here. Are you now saying you think the PL is a stronger league than Serie A?

Having seen Wilshere (below his career best but more or less fit at least) with my own eyes on a weekly basis over a season - I feel fairly well evidenced in saying: that he's not 'a bit rubbish', that he certainly is an 'international standard player' - though I'm not sure he gets into the English midfield now, despite certainly doing so when fitter. I'm not sure what his best position on the field is, which doesn't help matters. His career will go down as not reaching the heights his talent might have allowed in better circumstances. Nobody could have several month chunks injured every year or so throughout their career and reach their max potential. I think that's obvious.

Football, as life, is not black and white or in a fixed state. Players progress and regress for all sorts of reasons and at all sorts of rates. As a former player at my club I'll be interested to follow JW's career, especially if he gives Italy a crack. I highly respect the visible enthusiasm he showed for his time here, when it might have been easier to see it as an easy gig beneath him. It shows the character of the man.

As a central defender? I wasn't sure about him there even at Everton. I'd have preferred for England's sake for his career to be directed into midfield, and I think he'd be very good there indeed. But then I'm not a highly paid Premier League/FA coach or manager,. and they all seem to think he's a defender.

I think the PL is quite clearly a stronger league than Serie A, and has been for years. This could be changing shortly of course. The EPL has massively underperformed in European competition in the last 5 years, there's absolutely no doubt about that.

I think, given this forum archives every year or so? It's important we clarify exactly what people on this forum think of certain players.

It avoids situations where a player is massively hyped by the media, suffers a complete fall from grace, and every forum member insists they saw it all along and didn't fall for the media hype.

So let's be clear on Stones - I don't think he will be a regular for Man City in 3, 4 years. I didn't think Jones or Smalling would be regulars for Man Utd. I always thought Hart was massively overrated. Wilshere had potential, but was never the Xavi or Iniesta of England that he was portrayed to be.

Consensus being the operative word in my post. There are always jingoistic wingnuts who will rate average players of their national team amongst the best in the world. I reckon I could find a few 'Kleberson is the future of Brazilian football' articles if I cherry picked hard enough.

Whilst common it's quite different to hype up a young player, than to consistently maintain an average one is excellent - as happened to Hart.

Also, the Pep Guardiola point is a bit moot. If Hart was a truly great goalkeeper better teams than Torino and West Ham would want him (even they have to be paid to take him). Cech had to leave Chelsea because of Courtois' emergence, he went to Arsenal. Why can't Hart find a club that's willing to pay his current wages? Because he really isn't that good. And that isn't Guardioals fault - indeed, it's a good thing he had the clout to get shot of Hart, I'm not sure the previous Man City managers had sufficient backing in the club to do so even though his deficiencies have been obvious for years.

 

[JoshBCFC]

Talking about top keepers... Sczezny (or however you spell it) has joined Juve

 

[JimJams]

8mill. Cheap for a premier league keeper. Though technically a 3rd choice one I suppose.

 

[Dirk]

http://www.onefootballforum.co.uk/index.php?search/7422336/&q=Joe+Hart+"world+class"&o=date

I like that he was being called Joke Hart before his fall from grace. And in an England thread. Though I did call Wilshere England's second best midfielder in that thread, maybe I shouldn't have revealed this information.

Funny. A post of mine appears (amongst others) when you search for "Joe Hart + world class". Looking into my post (about the Confed Cup and Bernd Leno's 2 faults I said he's our very own Joe Hart (not meant as a compliment). And then I said that Leno is sometimes world class and the next moment pub league level. Would never use the words Joe Hart + world class together to describe him.