Coronavirus and League 2

[Boletus Edulis]

Argyle just had a one hour live zoom forum which was very interesting, with our owner, CEO and Director of Football. I did fall asleep for ten minutes, but heard most of it.

The big news for us is that we are actively considering a scoreboard.

It is obvious that our owner, Simon Hallett, thinks a lot of clubs in league one and two are in a lot of financial difficulties. Most of this is not new, but what he did point out as a very risky thing was to have too many players on long term contacts. After 30 June we will have only five still on the books. So it might be interesting to see how vulnerable a team is to work out how many longer term contracts there are.

Hallett suggested that as a result of this he felt Argyle were in strong place financially relative to a lot of our sides in leagues one and two, because we have less debt.

He said we were fine in the short run, but he alluded to several times the long term being the bigger problem. And here I think he was referring to football and the league in general - just when would we play with fans present again.

It is only a feeling, but to me it felt like all three of them were not expecting football with fans for quite a while.

They don’t want to play behind closed doors, but if we do we will not force any player to play if they don’t want to. Our DoF said it was hard to argue against a player who said if it is not safe for fans why should I play. He also noted that some players, in many teams, have conditions which make them potentially vulnerable.

I got a strong sense from all three that the 30th June was the key date. That while there was a bit of wriggle room for a month after then, the contracts become so complicated their demeanour was such that after 30th June there is unlikely to be football.

Argyle are planning for both league two and league one the next season, whenever that is, and have been planning for both eventualities.

Obviously this was mostly about Argo, and they were not indiscreet in letting any cats out of the bag, but it was interesting to get an inside view. The Prof and some of my other green colleagues may have seen and be able to add more.

 

[Indian Dan]

Some of our fans, including me, were questioning Lee Power in only giving Doyle and Grant permanent contracts until the end of this season. Obviously couldn't have known how things would turn out back in January, but thank God for that.

 

[Boletus Edulis]

Some of our fans, including me, were questioning Lee Power in only giving Doyle and Grant permanent contracts until the end of this season. Obviously couldn't have known how things would turn out back in January, but thank God for that.

It was very obvious from what Hallett and our CEO did not actually say, but implied, was that they felt quite a few sides were in serious trouble because of their debt. Hallett referred to long term contrac5s as gearing, future debt. I had never thought of it 8n that way. Do any of you guys know how many players you have signed up beyond 30th June?

I guess the other point was that our CEO said that wages for players will be readjusted depending on how much revenue is coming in. New players will presumably be on a lot less than those still in contract.

 

[Indian Dan]

I’ve just looked. We will have 12 players contracted until the end of the 20/21 season. Obviously varying degrees of wages but probably a bit on the heavy side

 

[Boletus Edulis]

I’ve just looked. We will have 12 players contracted until the end of the 20/21 season. Obviously varying degrees of wages but probably a bit on the heavy side

Is that full pros, or does it include some of the youngsters? That seems a lot, but what do I know.

 

[northstandexile]

Vast majority of the Stags staff are out of contract. We have at least 5 on contract but two of these are young lads. (Knowles and Clarke).
other three mentioned are Cook, (out on loan) Sweeney and the injured Gordon. Apparently Maynard was only on a one year deal but his wages included a massive signing on fee to compensate.

 

[Chris FGR]

Can't see the point in handing out many long term contracts at this level. Keeps players motivated, makes sure you have flexibility to change things around or cut the budget if need be without having players you can't shift sitting out their contracts. Most players are replaceable, and very few are worth a fee.

 

[Indian Dan]

Is that full pros, or does it include some of the youngsters? That seems a lot, but what do I know.

Couple of youngsters on the very fringes, others Lyden, Conroy, Isgrove, Hope, Fryers all first teamers. Doughty signed onuntil 2022

 

[Boletus Edulis]

How many teams have players with precondition that would make them vulnerable to behind closed doors matches? Our most consistent defender certainly has, and I cannot see him playing. The matches will become a lottery. Many teams will have players who should not or won’t play. The strongest teams could be those who can put most first teams out on medical grounds.

There is a narrative in the media at the moment about behind closed doors and I think it is being pushed in the interest of broadcasters, not the players.

 

[Spanishstag]

Now they are on about the top 8 playing in a mi i tournament to decide who goes up ,but they still going to have problems with relegation

 

[Indian Dan]

No relegation at all. Realigned the following season.

I bet Sky would chuck a load of money at the 8 clubs just to get games on TV. In some way I can see the logic of only those clubs with something to play for actually playing games whilst the others bin off the remainder of their seasons and all the meaningless dead rubber games that go with it.

But going from 4 teams getting promoted to just 1 is insane. Why should the likes of Bolton and Southend effectively be handed promotion by not getting relegated. 2 utterly shite teams, mismanaged and badly run. Trouble is, there are probably only 5 clubs in L2 that would vote against - the present top 5.

We’re getting turned over by the EFL

 

[Boletus Edulis]

No relegation at all. Realigned the following season.

I bet Sky would chuck a load of money at the 8 clubs just to get games on TV. In some way I can see the logic of only those clubs with something to play for actually playing games whilst the others bin off the remainder of their seasons and all the meaningless dead rubber games that go with it.

But going from 4 teams getting promoted to just 1 is insane. Why should the likes of Bolton and Southend effectively be handed promotion by not getting relegated. 2 utterly shite teams, mismanaged and badly run. Trouble is, there are probably only 5 clubs in L2 that would vote against - the present top 5.

We’re getting turned over by the EFL

So, if Crewe, Swindon and Argyle say no, we do not recognise this farce, would they really go ahead? I do think this may be fairly academic anyway, I cannot see us being in a position to play games before 30th June. It just feels like the tv people are trying to create some public momentum to pressure the Government and the EFL.

The bottom line is that the UK is not handling this well, we are not going downwards consistently yet, and until our testing is significantly more widespread the country will be in no position to loosen the lockdown.

The Government have said very little about the lockdown, but what they did say was that manufacturing would be at the front of the line, and entertainment at the end. This feels like a naked public affairs campaign by the broadcasters and football authorities to build a swell of public opinion to encourage the Government to make football an exception.

 

[Boletus Edulis]

Now they are on about the top 8 playing in a mi i tournament to decide who goes up ,but they still going to have problems with relegation

i note that this idea came out on the very day that scientists have warned the government not to ease the lock down because there is not enough testing capacity to cope.

 

[Indian Dan]

So, are we agreed that if games cannot take place after 30 June the season will be finished and either voided or decided on ppg.

 

[Boletus Edulis]

So, are we agreed that if games cannot take place after 30 June the season will be finished and either voided or decided on ppg.[/QUOTE

When asked a question yesterday about that, our owner, CEO and DoF all nodded. While the CEO did say technically in the contracts there was a months notice, so in theory it could go on to 30th July, he did say this would be very complex and you could not force players to play. The sense from these three throughout the forum was its by 30th June or nothing. This so obviously one clubs view, but I suspect most will have the same view.

 

[Indian Dan]

I suppose it’s easy for us in the top 3 to clamour for ppg and be done with it but if the EFL really want to retain as much integrity as possible they should still try run the play offs as, maybe, just single games and forget all the meaningless ones. Maybe, even include 8th and 9th to make a 6 team play off. With no relegation, that would effect the least number of clubs possible.

The only 2 it may affect negatively would be Exeter and Cheltenham who both have a realistic chance of autos. They could be given a bye maybe in the initial play off games.

 

[Boletus Edulis]

I suppose it’s easy for us in the top 3 to clamour for ppg and be done with it but if the EFL really want to retain as much integrity as possible they should still try run the play offs as, maybe, just single games and forget all the meaningless ones. Maybe, even include 8th and 9th to make a 6 team play off. With no relegation, that would effect the least number of clubs possible.

The only 2 it may affect negatively would be Exeter and Cheltenham who both have a realistic chance of autos. They could be given a bye maybe in the initial play off games.

I know what you are saying, but my view is really based on health and safety of players and officials. Without enough testing playing behind closed doors is not acceptable to me.

And yes at the moment we may be promoted, but it is also possible we may not be. if that is the case, it would be annoying, but if that’s is what happens that is what happens. I think the only thing that really annoys me is the situation of Bolton and Southend who should be relegated. Though both might not survive anyway.

I suspect having a bye might be a disadvantage - the extra game would probably help teams in terms of fitness, team shape etc.

 

[Spanishstag]

Can see them playing the game in empty stadiums ,the top 8 would probably be negated by the other 16 teams which would be enough of an excuse for them to declare this season null and void ,how can any club try and appeal that would be very difficult as they were not certain to be promoted anyway ,not good imo but can see it happening

 

[WhiteRussian]

A point and a question.

We are all looking at how desperate clubs are to contracts ending soon. I feel for the players out of contract though as in normal times most of them would move on to get a job at another club but obviously now all they have to look forward to is the dole.

So would it be ethically or legally wrong to renew their contracts on short term and furlough them so they got at least a reasonable income and still had them able to play as necessary. All as a short term exercise I stress.

Or is that too much playing the system or even not possible?

 

[Boletus Edulis]

A point and a question.

We are all looking at how desperate clubs are to contracts ending soon. I feel for the players out of contract though as in normal times most of them would move on to get a job at another club but obviously now all they have to look forward to is the dole.

So would it be ethically or legally wrong to renew their contracts on short term and furlough them so they got at least a reasonable income and still had them able to play as necessary. All as a short term exercise I stress.

Or is that too much playing the system or even not possible?

The world has changed. What used to be unacceptable may be seen in a different light. In our forum yesterday our owner and CEO implied that they and other clubs were looking at contracts in innovative ways.

 

[Chris FGR]

Would it be possible to modify the FIFA individual player career mode and put it on a multi player VR platform? Would be a bit like the simulated F1 races they've been doing recently..

 

[Indian Dan]

Amen to this

‘Voiding the Premier League season is not an option that we should even be entertaining. The same applies to all our leagues. Curtail them, perhaps, if the agonies of the coronavirus crisis mean either that the public really don’t care or it is no longer feasible to complete the matches. But do not void them, because that would be to bow to the politics of envy. It would be a victory for greed and fear. It would be a victory for vandalism.

Voiding plays to the lowest common denominator. It allows failure to wriggle off the hook. It allows failure to thwart success. It gets everything the wrong way round. Voiding is not about achieving something yourself; it is about stopping others achieving something. It is about a victory for vested interests. It is about denying players something they have worked for because you cannot bear to see them get their reward.
Voiding is about wiping something out, not creating it. It is about destroying something, not building it. It is about trying to bully your way into having another go because you have messed it up this time. It is about trying to avoid your fate if you are facing relegation or failure to qualify for the Champions League. It is about trying to dodge what you deserve.’

 

[Chris FGR]

Who said that though? Makes a difference.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Who said that though? Makes a difference.

If I'm right that's the vile Ollie Holt (Stockport fan) that said that. And as much as I severely dislike him, I can't disagree with anything he's said there. And his own club only have a faint sniff at the playoffs to play for...

 

[Indian Dan]

That’s him. Probably just what a majority are thinking.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

The funny thing is the fans I've seen that are passionate about voiding the season are both Manchester clubs, Everton, Arsenal, Spurs and any club who could be relegated from the Premier League so it very much substantiates.

Some Everton fans are so vindictive they'd happily take the financial ruin they'd endure if it meant Liverpool not winning the league. When the obsession becomes that dominant that you're willing to compromise the health of your own club to stop a club you hate from winning something, then it just shows how messed up some supporters priorities are.

 

[Chris FGR]

I don't agree with voiding any league other then the Prem. voiding that would be funny as fuck. Won't happen though.

 

[Richard Cranium]

The funny thing is the fans I've seen that are passionate about voiding the season are both Manchester clubs, Everton, Arsenal, Spurs and any club who could be relegated from the Premier League so it very much substantiates.

Some Everton fans are so vindictive they'd happily take the financial ruin they'd endure if it meant Liverpool not winning the league. When the obsession becomes that dominant that you're willing to compromise the health of your own club to stop a club you hate from winning something, then it just shows how messed up some supporters priorities are.

I don't listen to what any fans of Premier League clubs, the majority have never seen inside their teams stadium in the flesh.

 

[Indian Dan]

The funny thing is the fans I've seen that are passionate about voiding the season are both Manchester clubs, Everton, Arsenal, Spurs and any club who could be relegated from the Premier League so it very much substantiates.

Some Everton fans are so vindictive they'd happily take the financial ruin they'd endure if it meant Liverpool not winning the league. When the obsession becomes that dominant that you're willing to compromise the health of your own club to stop a club you hate from winning something, then it just shows how messed up some supporters priorities are.

Tbf, there’s a fair few on here who want it voided - mainly out of spite. They don’t want anyone to achieve anything cos it makes them feel better about their own club’s failings.

 

[Richard Cranium]

I'd expect a few of those who want it to be finished as their clubs still have something to play for would have a different point of view if this were 12 months ago.