Coronavirus and League 2

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Exactly. I don’t know one lower league fan, whether in the EFL or in non-league who wants the B teams

I don't think the EFL (now that idiot Shaun Harvey has been deposed) would even entertain it you know. It'd massively rely on PL subsidy to not damage the value of the product, and even then I don't think the subsidy would cover the massive loss of exposure, earnings or patronage either...

 

[Railway Blue]

From what I understand we’d be covered thankfully but with a substantially reduced budget / but then again everyone will be

Forgive my ignorance (haven't been to Field Mill since you were in the Conference) but is the ground still three-sided?

 

[AdamStag]

Forgive my ignorance (haven't been to Field Mill since you were in the Conference) but is the ground still three-sided?

It is.

When the bishop st was condemned there was little need to do anything with it as the other stands hold about 9,500 between them.

It’s also pretty useful for advertising space.

Doesn’t look the best though.

 

[Boletus Edulis]

Anyone had a season ticket holder questionnaire from their club? Argyle sent one out today. Is mainly asking:
1) Do you want a refund for this year?
2) If you buy one for next year and not all games are played would you want a refund?
3) Would you be interested in a flexible season ticket spanning two seasons and allowing you to choose your games?

Certainly suggests that they are thinking ahead of how they can get revenue in.

 

[AdamStag]

Anyone had a season ticket holder questionnaire from their club? Argyle sent one out today. Is mainly asking:
1) Do you want a refund for this year?
2) If you buy one for next year and not all games are played would you want a refund?
3) Would you be interested in a flexible season ticket spanning two seasons and allowing you to choose your games?

Certainly suggests that they are thinking ahead of how they can get revenue in.

I can’t see (unless you’re financially buggered) many fans wanting a refund from their respective club given there’s no more games this season (in personally quite thrilled Mansfield won’t play again )

Whereas the 3rd option is a nice idea, it’s hard to answer if you don’t know what next season will entail and if it has a knock on effect on the season after.

Good that you’re scoping the fans though.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Unless people are absolutely skint and desperately need the money, I genuinely think most football fans should forgo a refund. It's an exceptional set of circumstances which isn't the club's fault at all and that, if you have financial means to renew your ST, then you can happily let a small portion of your ST slide so the health of the club can benefit.

With regard to 2, as someone looking to buy a house and pay car insurance and other bills, I can't possibly commit to something that may not even be played. I've already made a donation this year of £1000 in January to make sure we could be taken over, but I had to make sacrifices to even be in a position to do that. Later in the year if I have some excess money in my savings, I may make a donation to the club if football can't be played but wages are still being paid to players. But it wouldn't be the price of a season ticket.

With regard to 3, I like the idea but expanding on what Adam says, you could be paying to watch League Two one season and National League football the next. And that'll put off some people if they have to pay daft prices for non league football. But it may well work at some clubs, but it'd have to be a more detailed plan for me to commit to such a thing.

I wonder if clubs will consider playing BCD if iFollow is reformed to home club only though just for one season?

 

[Greenacres]

I'm not worried about being refunded for the games I have missed, if as expected the season is brought to an end in the next couple of days. If the club give me a credit note towards my next season ticket then that would be absolutely fine, I won't be going hungry if I don't get the money back.

I would also be happy if they offer me an opportunity to donate the amount outstanding to an appropriate cause, by that I mean something related to the NHS, local healthcare or football in the community.

 

[Luke Imp]

Anyone had a season ticket holder questionnaire from their club? Argyle sent one out today. Is mainly asking:
1) Do you want a refund for this year?
2) If you buy one for next year and not all games are played would you want a refund?
3) Would you be interested in a flexible season ticket spanning two seasons and allowing you to choose your games?

Certainly suggests that they are thinking ahead of how they can get revenue in.

We've not had one yet but the Club have said they'll be contacting ST holders soon with points along similar lines to points 1) and 2). L1 fans were already a game down due to Bury as well. It works out as 6 or 7 games 'free' with our season tickets, so it's fallen about right, or wrong depending on your view.

Can't imagine many, if any, of our lot will ask for refunds but it comes down to personal circumstances. We already stand to lose £900k if the season is abandoned, which will total over £1m when you add in the lost Bury game, so another £300k in ST rebates wouldn't be ideal.

 

[AdamStag]

We've not had one yet but the Club have said they'll be contacting ST holders soon with points along similar lines to points 1) and 2). L1 fans were already a game down due to Bury as well. It works out as 6 or 7 games 'free' with our season tickets, so it's fallen about right, or wrong depending on your view.

Can't imagine many, if any, of our lot will ask for refunds but it comes down to personal circumstances. We already stand to lose £900k if the season is abandoned, which will total over £1m when you add in the lost Bury game, so another £300k in ST rebates wouldn't be ideal.

Well as everyone’s said you wouldn’t want to do that to your club unless you’re absolutely buggered, my contract came to an end at work so not even covered by furlough so it’s not great times currently but I’d still be ok without £70 or so.

Also, next season might entail more Tuesday night matches which was something which annoyed me as a STH in the conference given I couldn’t make those games.

There were talks about us looking at doing say £550 for 2 seasons (it’s £330 last season) so get more money into the club.

 

[shoddycollins]

Unless people are absolutely skint and desperately need the money, I genuinely think most football fans should forgo a refund. It's an exceptional set of circumstances which isn't the club's fault at all and that, if you have financial means to renew your ST, then you can happily let a small portion of your ST slide so the health of the club can benefit.

With regard to 2, as someone looking to buy a house and pay car insurance and other bills, I can't possibly commit to something that may not even be played. I've already made a donation this year of £1000 in January to make sure we could be taken over, but I had to make sacrifices to even be in a position to do that. Later in the year if I have some excess money in my savings, I may make a donation to the club if football can't be played but wages are still being paid to players. But it wouldn't be the price of a season ticket.

With regard to 3, I like the idea but expanding on what Adam says, you could be paying to watch League Two one season and National League football the next. And that'll put off some people if they have to pay daft prices for non league football. But it may well work at some clubs, but it'd have to be a more detailed plan for me to commit to such a thing.

I wonder if clubs will consider playing BCD if iFollow is reformed to home club only though just for one season?

Apparently the Halifax supporters club are planning to expel anyone who takes up the club's offer of a refund. source: B2TF so, you know, could all be bollocks.

 

[AdamStag]

Apparently the Halifax supporters club are planning to expel anyone who takes up the club's offer of a refund. source: B2TF so, you know, could all be bollocks.

I don’t think anyone should be ashamed to do it. If £70 odd feeds a family for a week or 2 when they’ve no money it’s more important that a football club.

 

[Boletus Edulis]

I suspect most season ticket holders won’t want a refund. The more interesting aspect for me was that the club were thinking ahead, trying to get some ways forward and asking to see if there is a demand. Not totally sure about 3 because I am not sure it guarantees your seat, however, it is the thinking behind it that counts. They were looking at packaging this with other things like shirts and things, which is also interesting though personally I was not interested.

I did wonder whether there would be anything about broadcasting but there was nothing.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Apparently the Halifax supporters club are planning to expel anyone who takes up the club's offer of a refund. source: B2TF so, you know, could all be bollocks.

If true though I can see why they're doing it, as the vast majority of fans would be renewing their STs anyway in a matter of weeks...

But it's poorly thought out because the circumstances have changed. Some people may have lost jobs and need every opportunity to get some extra cash they can get in the short term.

But if people are well off, would've renewed in normal circumstances and are taking the piss out of their sense of entitlement, I'd agree with their expulsion. We have a self-righteous fan who is very well off bleating on Facebook about demanding a refund for lost games even though it's not the club's fault. And this fan has a horrible sense of self-entitlement. But said fan will spend their money on a ST as soon as football is back to normal, I guarantee it!

 

[Railway Blue]

Anyone had a season ticket holder questionnaire from their club? Argyle sent one out today. Is mainly asking:
1) Do you want a refund for this year?
2) If you buy one for next year and not all games are played would you want a refund?
3) Would you be interested in a flexible season ticket spanning two seasons and allowing you to choose your games?

Certainly suggests that they are thinking ahead of how they can get revenue in.

Yes we had one and I believe the vast majority said no refund required.

 

[valefan16]

I got a ten game ticket and still had a few left (four I think) two of which went on the Crewe and Bradford game that won’t happen, one of those things haven’t asked for a refund and don’t overly intend too.

Rather they keep the money and have a club to watch next year.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Rapidly falling out of love with the entire game at the minute.

Its in the telegraph about getting players to turn away when making a tackle now, Just fucking can the lot. PPG and then cancel everything until its safe to do so with fans inside the grounds.

 

[valefan16]

Rapidly falling out of love with the entire game at the minute.

Its in the telegraph about getting players to turn away when making a tackle now, Just fucking can the lot. PPG and then cancel everything until its safe to do so with fans inside the grounds.

Turn away when tackling?! So the player being tackled does get Coronavirus just a broken leg...

 

[AdamStag]

Rapidly falling out of love with the entire game at the minute.

Its in the telegraph about getting players to turn away when making a tackle now, Just fucking can the lot. PPG and then cancel everything until its safe to do so with fans inside the grounds.

Our players have been dodging tackles and giving players 2m space all season anyway!

 

[Boletus Edulis]

Rapidly falling out of love with the entire game at the minute.

Its in the telegraph about getting players to turn away when making a tackle now, Just fucking can the lot. PPG and then cancel everything until its safe to do so with fans inside the grounds.

Sorry how does that work? I have tried to visualise that with my teenage son, and now i have a very sore ankle. And that was in the kitchen in slow motion.

 

[Boletus Edulis]

I think we were limiting away fans to 550 this season although with a roof going on the Holker Street End this summer that should go up. Just over 200 seating and 350 standing.

hey Chipmunx, you stay in and stay safe. I just read that Barrow has the highest infection rate of Coronavirus in the whole of the UK.

 

[chipmunx]

hey Chipmunx, you stay in and stay safe. I just read that Barrow has the highest infection rate of Coronavirus in the whole of the UK.

Thanks Boletus Edulis (what dies that mean? - sounds Latin or something?) - i'm a key worker too - so working as normal.... but the stats are on part misleading as for once the local NHS trust - the Morecambe Bay NHS Trust started testing people against government advise back in March - which is why they have picked up more positive results than anywhere else. the top 3 places in the country are all in the local trust area;- 1) Barrow, 2) Lancaster and 3) South Lakeland...

 

[TimeyWimey]

Apparently the Halifax supporters club are planning to expel anyone who takes up the club's offer of a refund. source: B2TF so, you know, could all be bollocks.

If that’s true I’d probably request a refund purely for the shits and giggles. Wouldn’t want to be part of a supporters club who are such c*** and have no sense of real life and priorities.

This whole thing is going to rumble on for months. I can’t see football restarting any time soon, a second wave is going to hit soon due to the government being inept mongs and we’ll be back to square zero. It’s impossible for any plans to be taken seriously.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

If that’s true I’d probably request a refund purely for the shits and giggles. Wouldn’t want to be part of a supporters club who are such c*** and have no sense of real life and priorities.

This whole thing is going to rumble on for months. I can’t see football restarting any time soon, a second wave is going to hit soon due to the government being inept mongs and we’ll be back to square zero. It’s impossible for any plans to be taken seriously.

Correct, there's a very simplistic set of Premier League and armchair fans that think once the league is decided things will go back to normal.

But let's see what happens. The Bundesliga have said if their proposal to resume the season fails, they will immediately relegate teams on PPG. So I assume the PL will go down the same route should Project Restart become a thing so that'd solve all the leagues in England. But then we have the next dilemma, broadcasters will want their rebates from the PL and EFL. I'm genuinely flabbergasted that people seriously thought the broadcasters would write the money off given they'd be losing money twofold if they did if you account for the cancelled and paused subscriptions right now. I genuinely believe a fair amount of fans of higher league clubs think football is invincible. A Spurs fan today said if the rebate cost them £50 million it'd just mean one less signing and they could live with that. Aye, but what about the lesser teams in the league? If they go under, the PL product is damaged and the broadcasting value depreciates significantly. So Spurs might not sign another Tanguy N'Dombele priced player next time round, but they wouldn't be able to do so in the future when the rights plummet. And if PL fans counter-argue by saying Amazon and Google will pay what Sky and BT have been paying now to save the PL, I've got some magic beans I'd love to sell them. Capitalists and corporations won't overpay for a product in turmoil, they'd merely try to get it for the best possible price. (See Sky for when they bought FL rights at 20% of the price ITV Digital paid for them when it went under).

It's the simplistic view of some that doesn't extend beyond "null and void" being some warped kind of cure for the game that is clouding their own understanding of the real problems the game faces. Once the disputes with broadcasters are inevitably resolved one way or another, clubs will have a gaping hole in finances. Top clubs also owe outstanding fees to many clubs on the continent. These fees will take priority over player wages. But then players will inevitably not receive their full wage or may not receive their wage at all. It's inevitable that a mass pay cut across the board will be coming, particularly at the higher levels. But everyone's favourite leech Gordon Taylor is doing all he can to resist that on behalf of the players. If the season doesn't continue, it's time for these players to get real and accept the gravy train is over and a cut is needed if they want to play the game they love in future. These same conversations will be happening overseas, but as players at lesser and second tier sides are on far less than our players are and their TV deals are all significantly lower, it'll hit them nowhere near as hard.

That player wage impasse could last until 2021 quite easily. And if it lasts, then clubs across the board are going to stop paying which will likely lead to a legal battle of monumental proportions. But can we even do that in the midst of a potentially deadly virus being all around us right now?

You've also got broadcasters who might not show football for another year. If a 2020-21 season can't be provided, I assume they'll more than likely have the rights to null and void their contracts which would cause major devastation across the whole of football. We need to know just how much PL and EFL rights could depreciate in a doomsday scenario to prepare us for the worst, Obviously the best case scenario is to show BCD football on TV, but L1 and L2 clubs and certainly non league clubs can't practically do that unless there's major reform or cash assistance from the state, which I doubt would be forthcoming.

The transfer market will absolutely collapse all across the global game. Even if some rich owners can bail clubs out, you're going to see some poorly run big clubs become badly exposed by this crisis. Arsenal, owned by an owner who prioritises his US sport interests over them and one of the elite more reliant on matchday revenues and Champions League qualification than their elite rivals are, could seriously be decimated by this crisis compared to Manchester City, whose owners prioritise them and have deeper pockets so would more than likely be bailed out.

After all those aspects of the game you get more questions - What about teams who rent grounds at high cost? What about benefactor-owned teams whose primary business lose significant sums of money through the crisis? Will the whole of the EFL have to go down the radical nuclear route and force clubs into group administration to force player wages and costs down, basically resetting contracts in the process? Even that would be extremely controversial as some clubs like Stoke could continue to fund them with bet365 money so why should they do it and it'd also leave local businesses out of pocket. But the upside is that it'd protect clubs and force them to cut their cloth whilst player wages will plummet which they've needed to for a long time. And what will happen to the non league game? I think we're about to see the death of bankrolled clubs chasing a pipe dream and a return to old times where the National League was a primarily part-time league, because it doesn't have the natural revenues to sustain itself as a majority full-time league.

Some of these questions won't even be answered for a year maybe even two years. And no one genuinely knows what route football will go down. It might not hit the big clubs now, but when you've handed out 5/6 year contracts this season anticipating that you'll have UEFA monies or the same sky high TV deal as you've previously had, but then you can't pay them once that deal is voided or runs out and is replaced by a deal at a dramatically less value, then even some of the biggest clubs could face oblivion in 2022 unless dramatic reform happens. And when the Premier League is ill, we're still very much connected to it, so the whole pyramid will inevitably suffer too.

I see a future for us, but it'll be a long road, there'll be a lot of arguments, there'll be legal battles, there'll be footballers who are going to be a lot poorer for the foreseeable future and they need to wake up and smell the coffee. But this is the scenario we face, it's not so much this season, it's our future over the next few years that we should be more concerned about. Because if we don't adapt to radical changes, we'll all die out. And other sports will face this scenario too, but on a lesser scale. It's time we realised that we need to stop being dependent on TV or handouts and learn how to be self-sufficient and sustainable.

 

[Boletus Edulis]

Thanks Boletus Edulis (what dies that mean? - sounds Latin or something?) - i'm a key worker too - so working as normal.... but the stats are on part misleading as for once the local NHS trust - the Morecambe Bay NHS Trust started testing people against government advise back in March - which is why they have picked up more positive results than anywhere else. the top 3 places in the country are all in the local trust area;- 1) Barrow, 2) Lancaster and 3) South Lakeland...

Yes it is Latin. And no I am not a public school toff, I went to a rough comp in sarf London (I think by definition all schools in sarf London are rough). It stands for a wild edible mushroom that if you bought from one of the trendy food markets in London would cost you a fortune for a kilo. The English translation is Penny Bun, which I am not sure I would use as a moniker!

Glad you are safe, carry on the good work and thanks for the explanation of the figures.

 

[chipmunx]

Yes it is Latin. And no I am not a public school toff, I went to a rough comp in sarf London (I think by definition all schools in sarf London are rough). It stands for a wild edible mushroom that if you bought from one of the trendy food markets in London would cost you a fortune for a kilo. The English translation is Penny Bun, which I am not sure I would use as a moniker!

Glad you are safe, carry on the good work and thanks for the explanation of the figures.

lol - my mum used to live in Durban Gardens in Dagenham and went to Dagenham school for girls - so i understand what your saying about London...

 

[shoddycollins]

Even that would be extremely controversial as some clubs like Stoke could continue to fund them with bet365 money so why should they do it and it'd also leave local businesses out of pocket.

On the topic of betting companies which have been almost as big a contributor to the money in football as TV companies, how has coronavirus affected them?

Football and horse racing make up 75% of their revenue so that's a huge amount to just lose, alongside whatever proportion the rest of sport makes up and whatever proportion is made up by fixed odds terminals inside the currently closed betting shops.

I'm not a betting man so I haven't seen much news from the bookies but I don't know what is happening regarding bets that were placed on this season, maybe it's not been determined yet. It may seem trivial from the perspective of those outside sport to worry what happens to people who, for example, put their money on Liverpool to win the Premier League, or Barrow to win the National League, or more confusingly on teams to avoid relegation but it's a big business that puts a lot of money into football through sponsorships, the Football League itself is sponsored by a betting company. These outstanding bets will constitute a large proportion of these companies current balance sheets as each one is essentially an asset whose value is determined by events.

If the bookies decided that any bet on a cancelled season is considered lost then it would be hugely bad PR and would likely dissuade casual gamblers from placing bets when sport resumes however they may simply not have the cash to do anything else.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Im on a Facebook page with about 20,000 members for football betting. Not a tipping site or any of that bollocks just your average punter like myself posting the odd winner, The amount of people on there on the online slots is worrying.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

On the topic of betting companies which have been almost as big a contributor to the money in football as TV companies, how has coronavirus affected them?

Football and horse racing make up 75% of their revenue so that's a huge amount to just lose, alongside whatever proportion the rest of sport makes up and whatever proportion is made up by fixed odds terminals inside the currently closed betting shops.

I'm not a betting man so I haven't seen much news from the bookies but I don't know what is happening regarding bets that were placed on this season, maybe it's not been determined yet. It may seem trivial from the perspective of those outside sport to worry what happens to people who, for example, put their money on Liverpool to win the Premier League, or Barrow to win the National League, or more confusingly on teams to avoid relegation but it's a big business that puts a lot of money into football through sponsorships, the Football League itself is sponsored by a betting company. These outstanding bets will constitute a large proportion of these companies current balance sheets as each one is essentially an asset whose value is determined by events.

If the bookies decided that any bet on a cancelled season is considered lost then it would be hugely bad PR and would likely dissuade casual gamblers from placing bets when sport resumes however they may simply not have the cash to do anything else.

After TV, these companies have the biggest grip on football. And if TV rebates are a thing, sponsors rebates will be. And because most of the Top 2 divisions have sold their souls to be sponsored by bookies be it domestic ones or foreign ones, they'll be rebated to some degree. Albeit that'll be chicken feed compared to their overall revenues.

I think Corona will see the death of many betting shops and a shift to the bet365 model of online betting only in order to stem losses. This'll cause mass unemployment but I genuinely think they'll do it.

As for resolving this season's bets, until there's an announcement on the season, they can't announce anything. It's highly likely no caveats were ever paid in the regulations in the first place. So it's a very grey area I must admit. Do all antepost bets become void? Will Swindon be considered League Two champions? Or can they not be champions in the eyes of the bookies as it wasn't after 46 games?

So many unanswered questions.

 

[shoddycollins]

After TV, these companies have the biggest grip on football. And if TV rebates are a thing, sponsors rebates will be. And because most of the Top 2 divisions have sold their souls to be sponsored by bookies be it domestic ones or foreign ones, they'll be rebated to some degree. Albeit that'll be chicken feed compared to their overall revenues.

I think Corona will see the death of many betting shops and a shift to the bet365 model of online betting only in order to stem losses. This'll cause mass unemployment but I genuinely think they'll do it.

As for resolving this season's bets, until there's an announcement on the season, they can't announce anything. It's highly likely no caveats were ever paid in the regulations in the first place. So it's a very grey area I must admit. Do all antepost bets become void? Will Swindon be considered League Two champions? Or can they not be champions in the eyes of the bookies as it wasn't after 46 games?

So many unanswered questions.

Bookies also have been known to pay out early for publicity so I'm surprised one of them (Paddy Power most likely) hasn't decided to pay out on Liverpool to win the PL while making a big song and dance about it.

Im on a Facebook page with about 20,000 members for football betting. Not a tipping site or any of that bollocks just your average punter like myself posting the odd winner, The amount of people on there on the online slots is worrying.

I think they'll be looking to milk problem gamblers, they're the people most likely to put aside concerns about whether it's sensible to place bets when coronavirus could return and most likely to place bets on obscure foreign competitions and things like e-sports when those are the only things to bet on.

 

[Indian Dan]

They’ll try and wheedle out of paying out if the can - just like all those threatened with relegation