European Under 21 Championship

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Good tournament England

Could be worse. Could be getting battered 6-0 by a country like England in a friendly and then failing to qualify for the tenth campaign in a row.

 

[mistermagic]

At least the Premier League is the best in the world!

I wouldn't gloat dude. We didn't even make the damn finals! AGAIN!

 

[Bilo]

I wouldn't gloat dude. We didn't even make the damn finals! AGAIN!

 

[mistermagic]

The quote I liked was your manager saying the French were arrogant, as usual.

True dat.

 

[Super_horns]

We seem to think just getting to these finals proves we have the quality and don't need to worry too much...

 

[G-Dragon]

Well said. Note how other national teams who copied tika taka have struggled. It's been disastrous for Mexico and hasn't done Japan much good either.

I think Japan has done well. Best team in Asia, and can easily compete against most of the teams in Europe.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The results are neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things in truth, it's the readiness of the coaches to jettison the team identity when the tough tests start that is most worrying. It's not like the team played as they had done throughout qualification but fell short, the approach quickly turned quite unadventurous and negative from the get-go. Which is a shame, because in the few spells that we really went for it we actually looked quite dangerous. There was lots of talk from Southgate prior to the tournament about how it's not all about winning, and that we won't compromise out principles, so I hope he's asked in the media why he was seemingly so quick to do so.

And I'm quite bored of players and managers coming out and saying "we have no excuses", because we don't want excuses, we want reasons. If they can't identify the problem(s) then that's a bigger problem in itself.

 

[markwwfc1992]

I think that's an overreaction to Benik Afobe not being picked.

I thought Southgate was a c*** long before Afobe-gate. His pathetic handling of that situation further justifies my point that he is a c***, and should be nowhere near any managerial position within the England setup.

Maybe one day we'll get a man in charge who has the balls to pick players based on their form, rather than what team they play for.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I didn't realise there was a controversy to begin with. Afobe hasn't been ignored because he's playing at a Championship club, plenty in the squad are, he's been ignored because there are three or four better players in front of him. Simple.

 

[mistermagic]

I'm not sure it's the managers telling the players to favour discipline over risk-taking. Southgate's formation last night was alright (playing with 2 strikers), it's just that chances were not taken. England did create some good opportunities against a decent Italy side, it's not like they were outplayed, outfought by the Italians; they conceded 2 goals in 2 minutes in an otherwise dec-ent first half. Butland didn't have a save to make up while the Italian goalkeeper made several (and pretty decent ones at that).
I think they are some positives to take from the tournament compared to 2 years ago as England have improved in the build-up play. A bit. Some movement between the lines scarcily happened whereas it was nonexistant in Israel. I also believe that the defeat to Portugal was quite unlucky.

Moreover, I wish UEFA would do something about the whole U21 set-up. The Euro is a very tough tournament if you only have 8 teams in it and players don't seem to respond well to that. Every two years, England breeze through qualification and then disappoint at a tournament which is always the same format. I think a lot of countries would benefit from an U21 World Cup (why there is an U20 World Cup?) and do the same thing as the pros so that the youngsters are familiar with the format. Imagine the confidence levels of a player having gone to Israel and the Czech Republic. They must be shattered and even if said player is called up to the senior squad (which could happen to players like Jenkinson, Stones and Ings) he will most likely be like a rabbit in front of the floodlights.
I'm not all that clued up on youth systems (I take no interest in younger age groups) but I think this level is the most important and that having a piss easy qualifying campaign and a very short European competition (making it very hard) doesn't help countries like England who need to develop players for future generations to get to the level of Germany and Spain (who haven't done much this time around).

 

[mistermagic]

Good news: the next U21 Euros will expand to 8 to 12 teams! Hoorah!

This doesn't mean that there will be quarter-finals which is a bit shit.

 

[Skinner]

The media wankfest has clearly got to Kane's head, he was annoyingly greedy

 

[markwwfc1992]

I didn't realise there was a controversy to begin with. Afobe hasn't been ignored because he's playing at a Championship club, plenty in the squad are, he's been ignored because there are three or four better players in front of him. Simple.

Kane starts every game because he is the player the media love and the supposed savior of England. Ings has just got a transfer to Liverpool.

Looking at the stats Afobe has a much better goal to game ratio than both of them; and scored more overall too (hell scored more than any striker in this country last season if you really want to go there). There is no reason why he shouldn't have been given a chance, especially since the other 2 were useless. If he played for a Premier League club we wouldn't be having this conversation. Don't give me 'there are better players' bullshit'... They hardly proved they were any better in this tournament.

 

[smat]

Kane scored 29 goals for Spurs, a much worse team than Wolves. He deserved his place.

Ings looks like a donkey though, it wouldn't have hurt to have given someone else a go.

Either way it's not worth getting so angry over.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Kane starts every game because he is the player the media love and the supposed savior of England. Ings has just got a transfer to Liverpool.

Looking at the stats Afobe has a much better goal to game ratio than both of them; and scored more overall too (hell scored more than any striker in this country last season if you really want to go there). There is no reason why he shouldn't have been given a chance, especially since the other 2 were useless. If he played for a Premier League club we wouldn't be having this conversation. Don't give me 'there are better players' bullshit'... They hardly proved they were any better in this tournament.

If Afobe was a better player than Kane or Ings then he wouldn't have been sold to Wolves in the first place, he'd be playing intermittently in the Premier League for Arsenal already. Instead, at a club that gives youth a chance, he had zero appearances. They gave up on him after his sixth loan spell. A good half season in a joke league and another in the Championship is not enough to force you way in front of Kane and Ings. Yes 13 goals in half a Championship season is impressive, but Ings scored 26 in a full season when he was back down there anyway, so Afobe has hardly set himself apart from anyone. And mentioning him in the same sentence as Kane after the season he's had is almost comical, frankly.

 

[markwwfc1992]

Kane scored 29 goals for Spurs, a much worse team than Wolves. He deserved his place.

Ings looks like a donkey though, it wouldn't have hurt to have given someone else a go.

Either way it's not worth getting so angry over.

It's not anger, football doesn't make me angry. It's frustration more than anything that a player who has proved himself and deserved to play in the tournament has been cast a side for the undroppable players because of who they are. I know Kane has had a great season, and the 'Premier League' argument will be always thrown around but he and Ings have been shite for 3 games in this tournament and this pathetic manager we have doesn't even have it in him to change it around.

And everybody wonders why we are consistantly shit in major tournaments when the English have this ignorant attitude that Premier League players are the best in the world. One day I hope England hire a manager who has a bit about him and isn't afraid to drop certain players, unlike the other puppets we have in charge.

 

[markwwfc1992]

If Afobe was a better player than Kane or Ings then he wouldn't have been sold to Wolves in the first place, he'd be playing intermittently in the Premier League for Arsenal already. Instead, at a club that gives youth a chance, he had zero appearances. They gave up on him after his sixth loan spell. A good half season in a joke league and another in the Championship is not enough to force you way in front of Kane and Ings. Yes 13 goals in half a Championship season is impressive, but Ings scored 26 in a full season when he was back down there anyway, so Afobe has hardly set himself apart from anyone. And mentioning him in the same sentence as Kane after the season he's had is almost comical, frankly.

Your ignorance of L1 and the Championship is frankly insulting.

Afobe was sold to us from Arsenal yes, that was his choice to find a settled club rather than Arsenal wanting to sell. Kane had over half a dozen loan spells in the lower leagues you insult and scored next to nothing before his break through season this year. Similar to Ings who was playing in the 3rd/4th tier with Bournemouth before a transfer to Burnley where he was in the Championship. I admire the fact he wants to leave his comfort zone and hefty wage packet at Arsenal to go out and play first team football to better himself.

The way you dismiss his loan spell at MK Dons stinks of pure arrogance. He scored 20 in half a season there, which is an astounding record at whatever level you play at (2 of those came against Man Utd).

Benik Afobe last season: 43 games, 32 goals
Harry Kane last season: 51 games, 31 goals
Danny Ings last season: 37 games, 11 goals

Harry Kane and Danny Ings both play Premier League football for now, Afobe will certainly be playing there in a year or two, and that is basically your only argument. As for mentioning in the same sentence as Kane, Afobe has had a much more prolific season than him... maybe you should look at players from the "joke leagues" once in a while, maybe you could find a striker who would score more than fuck all the latter 2 had managed.

 

[smat]

Not angry tho.

 

[mistermagic]

Reckon Kane had a decent tournament to be fair. Afobe could have come on in the second half mind. Don't really know what the Forster-Caskey/Loftus-Cheek sub was for...

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Afobe was sold to us from Arsenal yes, that was his choice to find a settled club rather than Arsenal wanting to sell. Kane had over half a dozen loan spells in the lower leagues you insult and scored next to nothing before his break through season this year. Similar to Ings who was playing in the 3rd/4th tier with Bournemouth before a transfer to Burnley where he was in the Championship. I admire the fact he wants to leave his comfort zone and hefty wage packet at Arsenal to go out and play first team football to better himself.

The reality is that Kane forced his way into Spurs first team and almost single handedly hauled them up the table, while Afobe failed spectacularly at Arsenal and had to move to the Championship to get any game time.

The way you dismiss his loan spell at MK Dons stinks of pure arrogance. He scored 20 in half a season there, which is an astounding record at whatever level you play at (2 of those came against Man Utd).

He scored 19 in 30 games, the season before (when he was two years younger) Patrick Bamford scored 17 in 30. So not that astounding.

Benik Afobe last season: 43 games, 32 goals
Harry Kane last season: 51 games, 31 goals
Danny Ings last season: 37 games, 11 goals

Harry Kane and Danny Ings both play Premier League football for now, Afobe will certainly be playing there in a year or two, and that is basically your only argument.

And your argument is... what? That scoring goals in the Championship and League One is on par with scoring them in the Premier League?

As for mentioning in the same sentence as Kane, Afobe has had a much more prolific season than him... maybe you should look at players from the "joke leagues" once in a while, maybe you could find a striker who would score more than fuck all the latter 2 had managed.

Cool. Let's stick Solanke in there. Scored 42 goals last season.

 

[markwwfc1992]

The reality is that Kane forced his way into Spurs first team and almost single handedly hauled them up the table, while Afobe failed spectacularly at Arsenal and had to move to the Championship to get any game time.



He scored 19 in 30 games, the season before (when he was two years younger) Patrick Bamford scored 17 in 30. So not that astounding.



And your argument is... what? That scoring goals in the Championship and League One is on par with scoring them in the Premier League?



Cool. Let's stick Solanke in there. Scored 42 goals last season.

Kane hauled his way into the Tottenham form due to the shit form of Roberto Soldado in the league, and Kane's impressive form in the Europa League. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of admiration for how Kane has progressed and the season he has had. Afobe didn't fail spectacularly at Arsenal at all. He has players like Oliver Grioud and Alexis Sanchez infront of him, world class players who score on a consistent basis, of course he isn't going to dislodge international quality players who are playing the best football of their careers. 'Failed spectacularly' ... talk about an overreaction, if he was greedy like the majority of Premier League footballers in his age bracket he could still be sitting in Arsenal's reserve team now collecting more money than he is getting at Wolves. Not sure what your morals are but I have respect for a player who will leave the Premier League money to drop down to better himself as a player.

My argument is that he should have been given a chance. Kane and Ings from my viewing were shite (in fairness to Kane, he didn't have much service). I find it disrespectful for a manager to phone him up from his holiday, ask him to come over to the Czech Republic for the under21 tournament only to bench him for the entirety of it whilst there are 2 players ahead of him who couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo judging on the showing of those 3 games. Kane, Afobe and Ings have both played many games in the lower leagues and had varied results, with the latter two having a much better record than Kane. Kane and Ings have both proved they are decent in the PL, Afobe hasn't had the chance to prove himself there yet although I'm confident that he will be a decent PL player someday soon.

 

[smat]

Afobe knew he was going to be at the bottom of the pile, he was a late replacement. It'd be more annoying for the 3rd choice who had been there all along that some Johnny Come Lately jumps the queue.

Why are you so anxious about Afobe's holiday?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Kane hauled his way into the Tottenham form due to the shit form of Roberto Soldado in the league, and Kane's impressive form in the Europa League. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of admiration for how Kane has progressed and the season he has had. Afobe didn't fail spectacularly at Arsenal at all. He has players like Oliver Grioud and Alexis Sanchez infront of him, world class players who score on a consistent basis, of course he isn't going to dislodge international quality players who are playing the best football of their careers. 'Failed spectacularly' ... talk about an overreaction, if he was greedy like the majority of Premier League footballers in his age bracket he could still be sitting in Arsenal's reserve team now collecting more money than he is getting at Wolves. Not sure what your morals are but I have respect for a player who will leave the Premier League money to drop down to better himself as a player.

I don't see how him moving for game time helps your argument. It doesn't speak to his ability it speaks to his lack of it. He wasn't good enough for Arsenal, not even close it seems, not even a sub appearance in the last four seasons that he's been playing senior football. And star players can't be that much of an obstacle, not when Akpom already has four appearances at the age of 19 up top.

My argument is that he should have been given a chance. Kane and Ings from my viewing were shite (in fairness to Kane, he didn't have much service). I find it disrespectful for a manager to phone him up from his holiday, ask him to come over to the Czech Republic for the under21 tournament only to bench him for the entirety of it whilst there are 2 players ahead of him who couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo judging on the showing of those 3 games. Kane, Afobe and Ings have both played many games in the lower leagues and had varied results, with the latter two having a much better record than Kane. Kane and Ings have both proved they are decent in the PL, Afobe hasn't had the chance to prove himself there yet although I'm confident that he will be a decent PL player someday soon.

I can understand people wanting him to have been given a chance, especially as hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the outrage is bizarre to me. He's never proven himself at the level that Kane, Berahino or Ings has, and was never considered someone who should be ahead of Bamford, let alone those three. It was only because of injury flukes that he was called up at all.

 

[Modernist]

Southgate is 2nd favourite to be next England manager after Neville...you have to laugh or you'd cry.

People can talk about grassroots football all they like but unless you have hungry players then it won't make a difference. There was a time when playing for England was everything to a professional player. Now the main concern is their club contract and how many followers they get.

 

[RavenBish]

Best U-21 players should've been out there, that's the end of the matter for me. Southgate got it wrong with his midfield no question - Loftus-Cheek and Hughes should have both started in a 3 but there's no reason why the likes of AOC, Barkley, Shaw (I'm guessing at least one is probably injured but I can't be bothered to check) shouldn't have been out there. I'm sure they'll quote 'playing too much football' or 'injury risks' but the likelihood is that it's the complete opposite, they're not playing enough football.

As for the usual jumping on the players, so many people have called our young players over-rated that I'm not entirely sure how they can be over-rated. No-one is pretending Forster-Caskey is the next big thing, Everton are going to offload Garbutt, Chalobah has had multiple unsuccessful loan spells in the Championship, Tom Carroll is never going to be a top midfielder. They wouldn't be wearing England shirts if we treated these tournaments properly so people need to stop pretending they're peeking into the future of English football - we produce just as much young raw talent as any country in the world. We just seem to have no fucking idea what to do with them once they hit 18 - it doesn't help people are pre-occupied and convinced that it's down to irrelevant things too like how much they earn a week or 'media attention going to their head' - yeah, because good young players in other countries never get over-hyped do they? Every young kid that can score a few goals in their piss-poor domestic leagues get labelled the next Pele/Maradona in Brazil and Argentina.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

People can talk about grassroots football all they like but unless you have hungry players then it won't make a difference. There was a time when playing for England was everything to a professional player. Now the main concern is their club contract and how many followers they get.

I think that's a myth to be honest. It's an cop-out explanation we'd rather believe than accept how crap we are. This was a committed group I believe. Southgate jettisoned the ones who weren't early on.

 

[ArmchairDiehard]

Slightly underwhelmed by our early exit. I really felt we could at least get out of the group this year. The loss of Berahino and Stones obviously didn't help, but we still had enough quality (Or at least I thought we did).

 

[Leewilson]

It's not really been spoken about but I'm slightly baffled as to why JWP got dropped so early on as well? Don't get me wrong, he wasn't outstanding against Portugal but surely he's a better option than Chalobah and Carroll? Alongside this, he has a decent dead ball and in a team containing Harry Kane, that could have come in very handy. Hindsight is beautiful, but even before the tournament I'd have probably lined up like this:

------------------------------Butland

Jenkinson---------Stones--------Gibson-------Garbutt

------------------------JWP---------Loftus-Cheek-------------

Lingaard-----------------Pritchard---------------Redmond

------------------------------Kane---------------------------------

Maybe I'd have gone Chalobah initially over Loftus-Cheek for experience reasons but after seeing Chalobah play, how Loftus-Cheek didn't get more minutes is beyond me.
Soutgate also fucked up by not putting Pritchard in the number 10 role where he's excelled for Brentford and will probably excel for Spurs when deputising for Eriksen.

As for Afobe, if this had been the England team containing Sordell and Wickham, then I'd be all for Afobe stating. But realistically, he shouldn't be beyond Kane or Ings in a starting spot. Both have had good seasons in the top league in England. Afobe scored a shitload for MK Dons then carried on his good form at Wolves. He deserved a spot in the squad (initially as well for me) and I'd have definitely given him some minutes. But yeah, he was never going to be a starter.

 

[mistermagic]

Switch Pritchard with Redmond and I agree, Lee.

 

[Leewilson]

Switch Pritchard with Redmond and I agree, Lee.

Tricky one that. Both are probably more effective through the centre. I just like Pritchard there as he is very comfortably on the ball and can find that little hole. But I appreciate Redmond running at CBs is also a good prospect. Either way, Southgate decided to negate that area by expecting Carroll and Forster Caskey to do that when both are simple possession keepers at best.