European Union Referendum

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40547733

Go go Vince Cable!

 

[Laker]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40547733

Go go Vince Cable!

Further proof the Lib Dems remain an utter joke of a party.

 

[mowgli]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40547733

Go go Vince Cable!

Obviously the senile old twat learnt nothing from the last election that voters didn't agree with his party wanting another EU referendum that's why his party has only a few members of parliament that will have as much clout as the greens in other words fook all.

 

[Jockney]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40547733

Go go Vince Cable!

Nothing more than desperate prognostics, though, innit. The economy can't get much worse for working class people, the Lib Dems are incapable of providing an alternative that isn't essentially just more of the same; Labour can. So if people 9/10 times will back Labour's vision despite Brexit position, how does a 2nd referendum get off the ground ? There's no electoral demand. We haven't seen any sort of extra-parliamentary movement; significant pressure from institutions, even people in the streets.

On a related note, how does this help (small 'l') liberals restore the centre-ground and hegemony? Even with more significant backing, a second referendum that returns a different result will divide country further. So what, best of three? Five? Seven? At what stage can everyone in the country be satisfied that democracy was respected?

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

But the proposed second referendum wouldn't be a re-run. It would be on the terms of any negotiated Brexit deal. If we can put our membership for the EU up for a vote, without any proper consultation or debate as to what that would actually look like in practice, I don't see why we shouldn't put the final settlement up for a vote too, especially as the two main parties have very ill-defined policies in terms of what they'd actually like to accomplish (my own personal opinion is there really isn't much of an appetite for this but I don't think it's a silly policy. I think it's actually probably rather sensible in the context of the last year and a half. If people believe in direct democracy - conducted via referendums - they shouldn't be averse to people voting on the form of Brexit we might adopt).

Personally, I don't think Cable's said anything remotely controversial. There are quite stark divisions in both the Conservative and Labour parties. There is a possibility the economy will deteriorate and people will have a rethink on Brexit. A lot of polling indicates that people are very keen on both immigration controls and free trade - they may very well not be able to have both! My personal opinion is that Brexit will happen, much to the detriment of the country, but I think you'd be foolish to make any absolute predictions. Two years (an optimistic negotiating window imo) is a long time in politics.

May I also just say that I do think it's funny that someone making a not unreasonable point is derided as a "senile old twat" and leader (?) of an "utter joke of a party" when he's largely just articulating the views of err... nearly half the population! It's rather sad that the fervent Brexiteers seem unable to countenance any dissenting views on the matter.

 

[Laker]

But the proposed second referendum wouldn't be a re-run. It would be on the terms of any negotiated Brexit deal. If we can put our membership for the EU up for a vote, without any proper consultation or debate as to what that would actually look like in practice, I don't see why we shouldn't put the final settlement up for a vote too, especially as the two main parties have very ill-defined policies in terms of what they'd actually like to accomplish (my own personal opinion is there really isn't much of an appetite for this but I don't think it's a silly policy. I think it's actually probably rather sensible in the context of the last year and a half. If people believe in direct democracy - conducted via referendums - they shouldn't be averse to people voting on the form of Brexit we might adopt).

Personally, I don't think Cable's said anything remotely controversial. There are quite stark divisions in both the Conservative and Labour parties. There is a possibility the economy will deteriorate and people will have a rethink on Brexit. A lot of polling indicates that people are very keen on both immigration controls and free trade - they may very well not be able to have both! My personal opinion is that Brexit will happen, much to the detriment of the country, but I think you'd be foolish to make any absolute predictions. Two years (an optimistic negotiating window imo) is a long time in politics.

May I also just say that I do think it's funny that someone making a not unreasonable point is derided as a "senile old twat" and leader (?) of an "utter joke of a party" when he's largely just articulating the views of err... nearly half the population! It's rather sad that the fervent Brexiteers seem unable to countenance any dissenting views on the matter.

No he wasn't articulating half the population at all, more like a small minority. Most remainers have accepted we are leaving but he and his party have peddled he whole "we might stay in" line and even ran a general election campaign based on that mantra which result in a grand total of 14 seats. They are wishing to stay in despite the will of the people clearly not being with them. One of my colleagues at work (lovely guy) is a Lib Dem member and campaigner and fully believes we should stay in and ignore the democratic vote we had. Ironic for a supposed Democratic Party. That's why I said they're an utter joke of a party and I stand by that.

With regards to voting on what type of Brexit we have, I think that's a different question altogether. I personally disagree as I believe one point of the general election was to determine the party to lead us through this on their terms. But we can have another vote if you like but I don't think it would provide a productive outcome because there would be 4 or 5 options on the voting card and each one would get between 15% and 45%. It would need some sort of AV type voting system otherwise you'd never get a majority then everyone would claim it "didn't represent the will of the people etc".

In addition, most leavers I've spoken to still want to leave and still want a hard Brexit (Brexit always meant out of everything in their minds) and I believe a growing number of remainers have switched that way too. This message board, for how excellent the debate is, doesn't reflect the make up of UK voters at all.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

No he wasn't articulating half the population at all, more like a small minority.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/881206773927071744

 

[Laker]

Just to add, we could have a referendum to say "do you agree with this form of Brexit or not?" But where does that leave us if the country says no? Granted the will of the people is met, but will we have time to negotiate another version? As you recgnise, two years is a short period for an EU negotiation as it is - we'd likely only have time for one referendum.

 

[Laker]

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/881206773927071744

Edit: minority then, no "small".

 

[Renegade]

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/884474494512975872

 

[.V.]

This govt is fucking incompetent. No post Brexit plan if there's no deal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40571123

 

[Aber gas]

This govt is fucking incompetent. No post Brexit plan if there's no deal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40571123

It's like they know they're fucked so just say whatever pops into their tiny, inbred brains. Johnson just blathers away with this sort of nonsense in the hope that the Blukip weirdos will lap it up.
I ( almost) feel sorry for the more sensible in the Tory party. They must wake up and wonder what new hell is to be unleashed. Just waiting for May to kneecap a toddler whilst dressed as a Klansman.

 

[.V.]

It's like they know they're fucked so just say whatever pops into their tiny, inbred brains. Johnson just blathers away with this sort of nonsense in the hope that the Blukip weirdos will lap it up.
I ( almost) feel sorry for the more sensible in the Tory party. They must wake up and wonder what new hell is to be unleashed. Just waiting for May to kneecap a toddler whilst dressed as a Klansman.

How can they not have a plan one way or the other? David Davies etel have wanted this for years, why did none of them have a realistic vision for a post Brexit vision?

It's like the GOP in America. They've opposed Obamacare for nearly 8 years, but have no plans to replace it.

 

[Aber gas]

How can they not have a plan one way or the other? David Davies etel have wanted this for years, why did none of them have a realistic vision for a post Brexit vision?

It's like the GOP in America. They've opposed Obamacare for nearly 8 years, but have no plans to replace it.

I honestly don't think they give a shit. The Brexit campaign was fought and won on nothing really. Slogans, a vague sense of jingoistic, hubristic fondness for a lost empire. There wasn't a great deal of detail or critical thought involved. This bluff and random shouting is just a continuation of that campaign.

 

[Aber gas]

I actually wouldn't now be surprised if we did walk away without a deal. I honestly think saving pride and face is a bigger issue than damaging the country for ludicrous baby-men like Davis etc.

 

[Laker]

Just trying to understand why the Beeb have given Tony Blair airtime again. His opinions are irrelevant frankly.

 

[Abertawe]

Just trying to understand why the Beeb have given Tony Blair airtime again. His opinions are irrelevant frankly.

He's lobbying for multi-national corps leave him alone.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

The economy can't get much worse for working class people

Oh boy

 

[.V.]

What a shit show this folly is.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ll-politicians-face-reality-brexit-rough-ride

 

[.V.]

And the shit show goes on.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...el-barnier-brussels-david-davis-a7847641.html

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

The biggest stumbling block now isn't anymore than mass of remainers desperately clinging onto hope of turning this around.....most now have accepted it must happen apart from the clump of die hards (and there was always die hard anti-eu people regardless of public views)

the stumbling blocks now is that a chunk of the people who wanted out need to now realise they will NEVER get the exit they had always wanted.....it never existed, it never would happen and was always a dreamland.

We can exit, but it will have many concessions and costs, that was always the case and a large chunk of the 51% of the public knew that when they voted. The very extreme exit lot (UKIP voters and co) are going to have to realise and soon that will will have many costs and probaby have to conceed on many things in order to stop the country collapsing, they would end up with a partial amount of things they want, but never everything.........once they finally do we may finally get somewhere.

Unfortunately they are still blinkered into this mindset that the EU would never let us just walk away and leave the whole UK/EU economy to ruin and thus the EU will magically give in to everything.

 

[Abertawe]

Unfortunately they are still blinkered into this mindset that the EU would never let us just walk away and leave the whole UK/EU economy to ruin.

Well both sides won't.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Also a good article in The Economist:

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...orwegian-turkish-there-no-la-carte-option-six

 

[HertsWolf]

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...orwegian-turkish-there-no-la-carte-option-six

At a guess, hard Brexit is probably not understood by many people. Least of all by the MPs demanding it.

 

[HertsWolf]

There's a very interesting blog post by Richard North...here..., a right-wing political researcher and journalist (an associate of Christopher Booker, an unpleasant Telegraph journo). North is a rabid Brexiteer, but what is interesting is the naked fear in that blog post, of the utter chaos the day after Brexit happens. Most of the right just shrug off any criticism of Brexit and go on and on about our destiny and taking back control (you can see it en-masse in the Comments sections of the Mail and the Telegraph). North seems to suddenly realise that the food trucks will stop rolling. It's weird...it's both encouraging and scary when Brexiteers realise what they are unleashing....which mainly seems to be utter government incompetence.

 

[Laker]

Also a good article in The Economist:

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...orwegian-turkish-there-no-la-carte-option-six

Ah another poll, at least we can rely on these things.....

 

[smat]

British Exit's fucked lads.

Just needed to update the thread. No-one's talking about it anymore now our mad uncles went and banned themselves.

 

[markwwfc1992]

Your avatar scares the bejesus out of me.

 

[smat]

Your avatar scares the bejesus out of me.

Sorry an image of my infant son offends you.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

With regards to voting on what type of Brexit we have, I think that's a different question altogether. I personally disagree as I believe one point of the general election was to determine the party to lead us through this on their terms. But we can have another vote if you like but I don't think it would provide a productive outcome because there would be 4 or 5 options on the voting card and each one would get between 15% and 45%. It would need some sort of AV type voting system otherwise you'd never get a majority then everyone would claim it "didn't represent the will of the people etc".

Sorry, very belated response, but I think this was precisely why a lot of us were somewhat opposed to having a referendum in the first instance. We essentially reduced a very complex relationship, forged over a 40 year+ period, to a binary Yes/No vote. The very notion was farcical. To my mind, the Lib Dems are only trying to proffer solutions to what was a very poorly conceived exercise...