European Union Referendum

[mowgli]

You voted Brexit under a Tory government, they were, pre-May's snap election, going to be in place to begin the implementation (and still are post May's calamity anyway).

So, no. I haven't pigeon holed you. You voted to leave knowing these were the people who'd most likely be implementing it.

To be honest i can't see May being PM for when Brexit is sorted she'll be kicked out by a challanger long before then.

 

[TheMinsterman]

To be honest i can't see May being PM for when Brexit is sorted she'll be kicked out by a challanger long before then.

Likely, and if that's the case, it's another Tory, are any of her potential replacements screaming competent and skilled enough to deliver a Brexit that works?

 

[mowgli]

Likely, and if that's the case, it's another Tory, are any of her potential replacements screaming competent and skilled enough to deliver a Brexit that works?

I did think Rees-Mogg until his comments in the week put paid to his chances and rightly so.

 

[smat]

So, Brexit Backers... A few pretty valid questions here.

Why does nothing seem to be happening?

https://twitter.com/rjonesux/status/905822287471005697

This is your mess. Why aren't you doing anything?

I find that a stupid thread because it presupposes that there is any chance that all EU nationals currently in the country will be deported or something. It's bollocks when there's plenty to put the boot in about anyway.

Namely the undemocratic European Union (Withdrawal) Bill the government is trying to push through, which would give them the power to make legislation without consulting parliament. Considering that parliamentary sovereignty and increased democratisation was a central plank of the apparently more enlightened British Exiters' argument...

This whole thing is quite embarrassing. The German car industry, prosecco and brie isn't going to save us when the EU's main priority - as they have always stated! - is the integrity of the single market. The EU probably is being a bit intransigent and inflexible in these negotiations, but it does seem like David Davis - and many Tory British Exiters - didn't have a clue what departure would actually entail. Davis said the other day "nobody pretended this would be simple or easy", except he did, and so did Liam Fox and countless others. And they are all completely and utterly rubbish and have no idea what they're doing, or what the UK even wants from British Exit.

50,000 marched against it today but I still doubt public opinion has changed enough to stop us from British Exiting. Maybe the pressure will mount as what British Exit actually means becomes clearer and clearer, but that may not happen in time. The best way to change people's minds would be to show them the chaos of a No Deal British Exit, and by then it'll be too late.

 

[Abertawe]

I find that a stupid thread because it presupposes that there is any chance that all EU nationals currently in the country will be deported or something. It's bollocks when there's plenty to put the boot in about anyway.

Namely the undemocratic European Union (Withdrawal) Bill the government is trying to push through, which would give them the power to make legislation without consulting parliament. Considering that parliamentary sovereignty and increased democratisation was a central plank of the apparently more enlightened British Exiters' argument...

This whole thing is quite embarrassing. The German car industry, prosecco and brie isn't going to save us when the EU's main priority - as they have always stated! - is the integrity of the single market. The EU probably is being a bit intransigent and inflexible in these negotiations, but it does seem like David Davis - and many Tory British Exiters - didn't have a clue what departure would actually entail. Davis said the other day "nobody pretended this would be simple or easy", except he did, and so did Liam Fox and countless others. And they are all completely and utterly rubbish and have no idea what they're doing, or what the UK even wants from British Exit.

50,000 marched against it today but I still doubt public opinion has changed enough to stop us from British Exiting. Maybe the pressure will mount as what British Exit actually means becomes clearer and clearer, but that may not happen in time. The best way to change people's minds would be to show them the chaos of a No Deal British Exit, and by then it'll be too late.

People aren't that bothered bro. We're out, RULE BRITANNIA!

 

[smat]

People aren't that bothered bro. We're out, RULE BRITANNIA!

[EXTREMELY NERD VOICE] Actually we're not out

 

[Laker]

You voted Brexit under a Tory government, they were, pre-May's snap election, going to be in place to begin the implementation (and still are post May's calamity anyway).

So, no. I haven't pigeon holed you. You voted to leave knowing these were the people who'd most likely be implementing it.

You're right, but the whole thing was that getting out was the fundamental point - who delivered it was a separate matter and I would imagine our "deal" with the EU will change as time goes on, as relationships between countries do.

So yes, the negotiations now are important but they are not the end of it. At the moment I'm not upset with how it is progressing though my perception does seem to be that the UK puts forward a proposal and the EU says "no, try again" without actually putting anything forward as a compromise aside from stating that the bill to leave is €100m without providing any backing for it.

As a side point, I voted labour as I disagreed with the Tory welfare policy (or lack of). I was more confident in the Tory approach towards the EU at the time of the general election but it was all a bunch of unknowns to be honest as the labour position on the EU wasn't fully defined.

Edit: also silkyman asked what I'm doing about it and my point was to ask what he wanted me to do? I'm not exactly going to be campaigning on the streets against a result I voted for am I? Not quite sure what he expected my answer to be but then most of his questions on this thread seem to be rhetorical. I just sometimes bite because they irritate the fuck out of me.

 

[TheMinsterman]

You're right, but the whole thing was that getting out was the fundamental point - who delivered it was a separate matter and I would imagine our "deal" with the EU will change as time goes on, as relationships between countries do.

So yes, the negotiations now are important but they are not the end of it. At the moment I'm not upset with how it is progressing though my perception does seem to be that the UK puts forward a proposal and the EU says "no, try again" without actually putting anything forward as a compromise aside from stating that the bill to leave is €100m without providing any backing for it.

As a side point, I voted labour as I disagreed with the Tory welfare policy (or lack of). I was more confident in the Tory approach towards the EU at the time of the general election but it was all a bunch of unknowns to be honest as the labour position on the EU wasn't fully defined.

Edit: also silkyman asked what I'm doing about it and my point was to ask what he wanted me to do? I'm not exactly going to be campaigning on the streets against a result I voted for am I? Not quite sure what he expected my answer to be but then most of his questions on this thread seem to be rhetorical. I just sometimes bite because they irritate the fuck out of me.

TBF Laker, it wasn't anything personal, it's more a general annoyance with the whole process.

I wasn't staunchly pro-EU, but I voted stay because there was no coherent vision offered, just vague, wishy washy platitudes and patriotic slogans, nobody had a plan for what we'd do if we left, there should have been a firm bit of "breathing space" to prepare for the process properly, May just waltzed in and triggered it then rushed an election, I'd rather we had a few years of parties building sound Brexit strategies to take to the public based on the fact we voted out, have a proper "Brexit election" and move forward from there with solid plans implemented by people who are not just doing it because they don't want to commit political career suicide and defy the will of the people.

It'd have given us clearer ideas on what Brexit would be, it would allow a genuine debate and discussion about the realities and give people time to think what they want their Brexit to look like (or not look like if a party was offering to not go ahead with it) and then vote to put the people in place to implement it.

It's a huge decision that has been rushed farcically because Cameron tried to play power politics after crushing the opposition North of the border and nobody in government is really all that enthusiastic for it and instead of taking time to let the publics decision sink in and really work on a viable solution the Tories have decided to plough ahead ASAP, seemingly, regardless of the looming problems.

 

[.V.]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin....html?tid=ss_tw-bottom&utm_term=.ca3105e7ffaa

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Interesting politicking in Italy at present
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-may-be-long-road-to-euro-exit-idUSKCN1BJ20F
http://www.euronews.com/2017/09/11/...n-parties-call-for-new-currency-to-flank-euro

 

[Abertawe]

If we think we've had it bad under this undemocratic crap called the EU it's nothing compared to some member states. It's just a shame everything is so tied in economically or else I'd love to see it crash overnight.

 

[Aber gas]

Big vote tonight on the repeal bill. Wonder if the "woke" Tories will put their beliefs first and vote against the government.

 

[mowgli]

Big vote tonight on the repeal bill. Wonder if the "woke" Tories will put their beliefs first and vote against the government.

And Labour MP's in a constituency that voted to leave vote with their constituents wishes.

 

[Aber gas]

And Labour MP's in a constituency that voted to leave vote with their constituents wishes.

It's not about leaving, it's about a Tory government wanting powers to circumvent the rule of law and parliamentary democracy. All the sort of things you people bang on about.

 

[Abertawe]

BBC are setting the narrative perfectly so far today. Corbyn's call to vote against is against democracy and any MP's going against will raise question marks over the leadership. You dig? Oh and poor David Davis is working day & night try'na get a deal.

 

[smat]

Next round of talks moved to take place after a major speech by Theresa May. Change of course or smth?

 

[AFCB_Mark]

A big speech by Juncker today to set out his aims for the future of the EU. Headlines include:

Help and encouragement for non Euro EU members to adopt the Euro currency
Changes around debate and voting on foreign policy matters
The creation of one Finance Minister post
A common defence force by 2025 (Nick Clegg's "dangerous fantasy" )
MEPs not necessarily representing a particular nation, but able to represent multiple nations (not clear on the mechanics of this)
An overall theme of moving forwards post Brexit, forward meaning further integration for the EU27, and looking to increase that 27 further if possible (although explicitly ruling out Turkey).

All a lot like a manifesto really. So if anyone disagrees with any of Juncker's aims - Just vote him out at the next election.
Oh.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Whatever one thinks of Juncker (and I don't care for him very much) his position is an elected one. He was nominated to serve a five-year term by the European Council (comprising heads of state/government), and was formally elected by the European Parliament (directly elected by EU citizens) so what exactly is the problem?

 

[mowgli]

Whatever one thinks of Juncker (and I don't care for him very much) his position is an elected one. He was nominated to serve a five-year term by the European Council (comprising heads of state/government), and was formally elected by the European Parliament (directly elected by EU citizens) so what exactly is the problem?

The fact that he's known more for boozing than being a statesman? Poland's PM complained about it but drunken Juncker's mate also a Pole Tusk refused to take it further,Cameron said that Downing Street used to hide the alcohol if Juncker had a morning meeting at number 10. Juncker was also done for fraud in Luxembourg that led to him having to resign as leader.

 

[silkyman]

Oh, do fuck off Boris. Still peddling this utterly debunked, and totally inaccurate bollocks.

The idea that so many people believed this blustering, duplicitous, c*** is really fucking depressing.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/exclusive-boris-johnson-yes-will-take-back-350m-eu-nhs/amp/

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Worst thing is that he blatantly doesn't believe a word of it. Everything he does is so incredibly calculated and self-serving. What a complete shit.

 

[Laker]

Aside from it being a lie, it just looks unprofessional. I don't know what Boris thought he was going to achieve with requoting that but it just makes him look even more stupid.

That said, what is said in the press isn't relevant to the negotiations.

 

[.V.]

https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792

 

[Abertawe]

Damn, the US is the only country in the world too

 

[Aber gas]

We were told that a lovely big trade deal with the Americans was a very simple thing to achieve though Aber tbf tbh.

 

[Abertawe]

We were told that a lovely big trade deal with the Americans was a very simple thing to achieve though Aber tbf tbh.

We were once told father christmas was real, shit happens. It might come as no surprise I'm not huge on the airline making scene. I gather we make X and have come to trade that X within the US but now it's gonna be tariffed. Doesn't have to be a biggy. World population is booming right now and more people gonna fly high up in the sky. US might be a big boy now but it's surely better to pimp out the NEXTGEN boasting legit big boy populations. The snippet below is throwing figures. Should they be right it should be the job a good government to work with industry to seek out the obvious demand and get the secret handshakes flowing.

(IATA) expects 7.2 billion passengers to travel in 2035, a near doubling of the 3.8 billion air travelers in 2016. The prediction is based on a 3.7% annual Compound Average Growth Rate (CAGR) noted in the release of the latest update to the association’s 20-Year Air Passenger Forecast.

 

[Laker]

There was me thinking air travel was a profitable industry all of a sudden.....

 

[Aber gas]

We were once told father christmas was real, shit happens. It might come as no surprise I'm not huge on the airline making scene. I gather we make X and have come to trade that X within the US but now it's gonna be tariffed. Doesn't have to be a biggy. World population is booming right now and more people gonna fly high up in the sky. US might be a big boy now but it's surely better to pimp out the NEXTGEN boasting legit big boy populations. The snippet below is throwing figures. Should they be right it should be the job a good government to work with industry to seek out the obvious demand and get the secret handshakes flowing.

(IATA) expects 7.2 billion passengers to travel in 2035, a near doubling of the 3.8 billion air travelers in 2016. The prediction is based on a 3.7% annual Compound Average Growth Rate (CAGR) noted in the release of the latest update to the association’s 20-Year Air Passenger Forecast.

I'd love to think so mate. It's just all getting a bit disappointing innit. First the 350 million thing didn't happen. Now the trade deals are hard. It's like this might not be the easiest thing in human history.

 

[Super_horns]

Talk of a "no deal" Brexit now - basically no-one is really sure what will happen?

 

[smat]

Talk of a "no deal" Brexit now - basically no-one is really sure what will happen?

Good post.