European Union Referendum

[DarkSithLord]

I must admit i voted remain and didn't' want to leave but the more and more this goes on i'm sort've hoping we leave on a no deal and say 'f*ck them'

the entire stuff the last few months has just got right on my nerves, full of mass threats, moaning, whinging and sulking, demands that this, that and other doesn't happen and the EU frankly constantly trying to throw us under a bus.

Never expected a deal in the first place and think the biggest error our side is spending 2 years getting a deal from an EU who could never ever give one......sheer waste of time leaving us with no time now for anything.

but on flip side, I don't understand any logic to this 'peoples vote' we all damn well knew what the consequences could be of voting leave, we had threats shoved at us daily for months and months.................its why i voted remain as i didn't feel it worth all the consequences, you cannot now turn around and say 'ah well people never knew' when we had lots of threats previously.......people still wanted out.

and the biggest worry of everything is we sit here after 3-4 years of debate and i have yet not really ever heard an actual 'positive' on staying in the EU.......its always about the negatives of leaving.

Great post.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Nope.

The EU have maintained a consistent position from the start and have given us a Withdrawal Arrangement that the top Brexiteer brass signed up to, including Johnson and Davies (before they started pretending they hadn't). Our problems are entirely self-inflicted because the UK has never actually established what it wants from the process. We wanted to cherry-pick things we knew we couldn't have and then, having signed up to an agreement, set about moaning about things we didn't like about it - notably the backstop - whilst utterly failing to propose any positive solutions.

The only ones throwing the nation under a bus in this unholy mess are the Conservative Party. If people are daft enough not to recognise that by now then perhaps they deserve the disastrous reality of a no deal Brexit. It's only a pity the rest of us will have to suffer with them.

 

[meh]

I must admit i voted remain and didn't' want to leave but the more and more this goes on i'm sort've hoping we leave on a no deal and say 'f*ck them'

the entire stuff the last few months has just got right on my nerves, full of mass threats, moaning, whinging and sulking, demands that this, that and other doesn't happen and the EU frankly constantly trying to throw us under a bus.

I think you have mis understood the process and how the EU works completely....

It is the conservative party that has thrown us under the bus.

The problem with the British public is they have completely mis-judged how important they are to the EU (Speaking as someone who works and lives in mainland Europe, many countries simply don't care that much about Brexit and wish we would hurry up and leave.)

The EU itself doesn't want us to leave on a no-deal, but make no mistake, the UK need the EU a lot more than the EU need them.

At the moment it is the UK who want the EU to change their laws and rules while leaving, it's like going to a party and on the way out demanding that they change the music, venue and drinks. Something that made me laugh earlier from what I saw from a friend;


“A new word appeared in Russian language - brekzit' ( brekzil, brekzila, nabrekzit' ) - which means to say goodbye, but never to leave. An example: "Vasily Petrovitch at the dinner drank half a liter of vodka, broke the glasses, insulted everyone, including the hosts, but did not leave and instead goes on brekziting"”

and the biggest worry of everything is we sit here after 3-4 years of debate and i have yet not really ever heard an actual 'positive' on staying in the EU.......its always about the negatives of leaving.

Check out the podcast 3 blokes in a pub on youtube;

There is a lot of content there on how the EU helps us with science; jobs; food; cheap imports; ability to study and travel abroad; making trade friction less and easy; better medicines and treatment available for the NHS; helping the security with cross border cooperation between police forces and the most important economy.

And as of yet as they always say, not one thing they have said has been proven incorrect by the listeners.

There is also a good 24 minute video on why reverting to WTO would be a disaster.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

3 blokes in a pub talking abut it on a podcast ain't bringing it out too the general public....why don't the remain MP's big up reasons to remain or the Euro lot big up reasons to remain, its always more what we lose than what we gain.

leave has always been what we could gain than what we risk losing......think its why they always have come out more popular whether its spin or not.

still do not buy it that people didnt realize the risks, we got told it for a year, as i say its why i voted remain in first place expecting this situation, but 17 millions STILL thought it was worth the risks.

dont disagree the tories have made a right royal mess of it, the EU were never going to give a deal we had to frankly accept a situation like Norway or Switzerland may have or go with no deal planning and wasted 2 years for nothing.

 

[Benji]

Have you not heard of the phrase "Project Fear"?

 

[meh]

why don't the remain MP's big up reasons to remain or the Euro lot big up reasons to remain, its always more what we lose than what we gain.

Immigration is always a tricky subject which unfortunately many MPs have dodged rather than tackling it head on.

still do not buy it that people didnt realize the risks, we got told it for a year, as i say its why i voted remain in first place expecting this situation, but 17 millions STILL thought it was worth the risks.

You overestimate the general public and people in general. I think people voted because they were tired of austerity and still feeling the effects of the recession.

As Superhans said; "you can't trust people, people voted for the Nazis and listen to Coldplay"

The EU has nothing to do with this but it was a chance for people who had felt the effects of this to finally make a change. Don't forget some of the reasons why people voted to leave ranged from getting rid of David Cameron to 77 million turkish people coming to live (yes one of my friends gave me this reason for voting to leave)

Another friend of mine said he was getting bored with life and wanted to see some real chaos so voted to leave.

leave has always been what we could gain than what we risk losing

The problem with this is, they have outright lied about what we could gain.

They might as well told people we can drink unicorn milk and eat unicorn meat.

Actually this statement you just made sums up why the UK is having so many problems at the moment. They spent 3 years promising things that were never possible, and now reality is showing their false promises for what they were.

I think and believe that the UK needs a no deal and things to get worse before the country can finally start healing.

 

[Fompous Part]

Another friend of mine said he was getting bored with life and wanted to see some real chaos so voted to leave.

And still people claim, ad nauseam, that Leave voters didn't know what they were voting for!

 

[meh]

And still people claim, ad nauseam, that Leave voters didn't know what they were voting for!

I think the people who claim this can easily be disproved just by listening to talk in shows; Question TIme or a 10 minute chat with the average leave voter!!!

Im back in the UK for a week as my nans in hospital and overheard a conversation between another older couple in an adjacent bed. The lady said she voted leave but didn't really understand everything but thought the NHS could do with the extra money.

One of my nans friends who is 81 years old voted to leave to stop the "black people from coming".

My favourite video on youtube is of a youngster interrupting an interview to give his opinion and claiming the immigrants are coming over here and taking our jobs and not even working, and then finishes with I think I make sense.

We could go on and on here with the various reasons why people voted to leave. It will make an interesting study in the future on human behaviour for sure, never seen so much confirmation bias at work. It's become almost like a religion rather than a way to govern a country.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Why is it that the 'average Leave voter' is never present in the discussions in which they're referenced? Why is nobody in these discussions ever an average Leave voter nor do they ever know one? Are you sure you know what the average Leave voter is, and are not just aware of some of the simpletons that the mainstream media cherry-pick soundbites from? I remember the day after the vote, sombre tones on the BBC followed by footage of some random on the street ranting about sending the Muslims back. Very interesting how sensible Leave voters are plentiful online yet nobody with a mic and camera is able to find them. It's almost like they're not really looking.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Very interesting how sensible Leave voters are plentiful online

citation needed

 

[meh]

Very interesting how sensible Leave voters are plentiful online yet nobody with a mic and camera is able to find them. .

I've yet to find that many; in fact the football club I use to follow, the forum is full of 50 year olds + wanting violence on the street if anything but a no-deal brexit happens.

Even when I watch Question Time, I hear leave voters just repeating the lies and fanciful wishes that leading brexiteer politicians have been spouting.

Look at the youtube comments under a James Goddard video or Tommy Robinson.

Out of all my friends who voted leave (there were quite a few) only 1 I would say actually could defend their argument without resorting to "alternative facts".

Are you sure you know what the average Leave voter is, and are not just aware of some of the simpletons that the mainstream media cherry-pick soundbites from?

Some of these simpletons that the media cherry pick from are leading UKIP speakers or Conservative politicians such as Tim Martin who just continues to spout shit.

for example

Another simpleton here taken apart by someone armed with facts.

Another leave simpleton who taken apart from someone with facts.

 

[Benji]

citation needed

They're bots

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I've yet to find that many; in fact the football club I use to follow, the forum is full of 50 year olds + wanting violence on the street if anything but a no-deal brexit happens.

Even when I watch Question Time, I hear leave voters just repeating the lies and fanciful wishes that leading brexiteer politicians have been spouting.

Look at the youtube comments under a James Goddard video or Tommy Robinson.

Out of all my friends who voted leave (there were quite a few) only 1 I would say actually could defend their argument without resorting to "alternative facts".




Some of these simpletons that the media cherry pick from are leading UKIP speakers or Conservative politicians such as Tim Martin who just continues to spout shit.

for example

Another simpleton here taken apart by someone armed with facts.

Another leave simpleton who taken apart from someone with facts.

I don't think those videos demonstrate what you think they do. The UK usually puts around £9bn into the EU after the rebate per year, so the idea that the £39bn divorce bill would somehow be meaningfully offset by EU investment (into a country that receives proportionally very little at the best of times) and May's dead trade deal through to 2020 as the guy in the first video insinuates, is total horseshit. He then goes on to suggest that increasing our potential fishing yield massively would be pointless because we sell fish mostly to the EU, as if that would somehow be impossible without a deal. Again, horseshit. He has a point about tariffs, but at the same time seems to be trying to perpetuate this trendy new deception that if you trade using WTO rules (which we already do) then you can't have trade deals that works differently aside from that (which we already do).

The second video is almost entirely without substance, it's the same hypothesising about Britain's ability to negotiate trade deals alone from both sides. The Japan point seemed especially odd though, given how quick the Japanese were to suggest we'd get a copy & paste deal should we leave.

The third is a muddled argument against a position that another guy who's not in the video holds that almost no other Leavers do.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

The thing is Meh that until people stop burying heads in sand or stop outright art king 17 million who voted leave as racist or stupid or ignorant absolutely it will get worse whether we stay or leave.

You would think the pro EU, pro PC, pro, anti trump type people are of a better higher class standard.

In reality most of other opinions are on whole down to earth, hard working, friendly open people who welcome most things but find things tough and turn to hopeful quick fixes...........the establishment, protestors and celebs just lumping them all in as morons frankly just digs people deeper in their views.

When will the EU realise it badly needs adjusted, it has fascists within Italy, poland, Hungary, Austria......its rising in France, Holland and Spain. The Uk wants out......

The eu parliament is voted by about 2 men and a dog as no one has interest in the MEP elections and only vote for a party name or protest vote, therefore many countries send masses of MEP’s who don’t give a sh*t about Europe at all.

It’s a badly flawed mess

 

[Fompous Part]

One of my closest friends voted Remain. He has a Master’s degree in Mechanical Engineering. His reason for voting Remain? His wife told him to. What he knows about the EU could be written on the back of a stamp – if he desired to remain in anything, it was balls deep in his missus 3-4 times per week. He’s one of these ‘better educated’ Remain voters we sometimes hear about.

The sad truth is that neither side enjoys a monopoly on bad arguments. In this sense, Brexit is no different to any other democratic political contest in human history. I could write a dissertation-length post recalling each misinformed, idiotic or just plain frivolous argument I’ve heard for voting Remain (many of them from highly educated young people). But what would that achieve, really?

The debate will never move forward if any attempt to discuss the issue degenerates into a tedious tit-for-tat exercise in which both sides take each other at their absolute worst.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

What most people know about the EU, and economics, could be written on the back of a stamp.

 

[ArunBlue]

Remoaner central. Get on with it.

 

[Red]

This week is shaping up to be an interesting one. Rumours of May offering to take no deal off the table and Corbyn supporting a 2nd ref. There will be some triggered gammons up and down the country today.

 

[Red]

One of my closest friends voted Remain. He has a Master’s degree in Mechanical Engineering. His reason for voting Remain? His wife told him to. What he knows about the EU could be written on the back of a stamp – if he desired to remain in anything, it was balls deep in his missus 3-4 times per week. He’s one of these ‘better educated’ Remain voters we sometimes hear about.

The sad truth is that neither side enjoys a monopoly on bad arguments. In this sense, Brexit is no different to any other democratic political contest in human history. I could write a dissertation-length post recalling each misinformed, idiotic or just plain frivolous argument I’ve heard for voting Remain (many of them from highly educated young people). But what would that achieve, really?

The debate will never move forward if any attempt to discuss the issue degenerates into a tedious tit-for-tat exercise in which both sides take each other at their absolute worst.

Your friend voted remain because his wife told him to, yet he's one of these better educated remain voters? Which is it?

 

[Fompous Part]

I used scare quotes around “better educated” for a reason, matey. Do I really need to explain it?

I mean, I will if you really need me to. I’ll even try my best not to be a condescending twat while doing it. But, seriously, is it necessary?

 

[Super_horns]

Well if there was a 2nd referendum and Remain won surely you'd have to have a 3rd to decide the winner...

Just about sums up the mess really - less than a month away and no-one has any idea what will happen.

 

[Red]

I used scare quotes around “better educated” for a reason, matey. Do I really need to explain it?

I mean, I will if you really need me to. I’ll even try my best not to be a condescending twat while doing it. But, seriously, is it necessary?

Your first response stank of condescending twattery, not unlike many of your other posts I've read.

 

[Fompous Part]

I'll take that as a no.

 

[Red]

How do we reckon the vote will go today? I reckon it'll get rejected, but my a lesser margin.

 

[PuB]

No chance of the deal going through now that the legal advice is out.

 

[Fompous Part]

Don't think it had much of a prayer anyway, TBH.

I agree with Red: it will be rejected again but this time by a marginally less embarrassing margin.

My back of a fag packet calculations still have it failing by 100-120 votes.

 

[Super_horns]

Well it was slighly better - just 149 this time.

Onto tomorrow...what will happen then?

 

[Fompous Part]

Parliament will most likely vote against 'no deal' Brexit, i.e. the procedural default as per the process Parliament voted 498-114 in favour of initiating back in February 2017. Vote for extending Article 50 to follow on Thursday.

 

[PuB]

Problem being we can't stop a no deal. Interesting to see that Boris, despite being foreign secretary and in the cabinet, still doesn't understand the consequences of a no deal and WTO trade tariffs.

It took a member of his own party to point out the obvious.

 

[Fompous Part]

Parliament will reject 'no deal' tomorrow. That doesn't remove it as the default option, of course; however, it's a necessary prelude to more meaningful action.

Parliament could vote to seek an Article 50 extension. It almost certainly will on Thursday. The EU27 might not grant it (it requires unanimous agreement, I think), but it can be sought.

If the EU says non/nein/nee, Parliament could avoid 'no deal' by voting to unilaterally nix the Article 50 process.

That's probably what the EU wants. That's probably what 80% of our MPs want to do, and gladly would do if they thought they could act with political impunity.

My hot take: they might as well remove all pretense from this situation and just go ahead and do it.

It would suck, but I'm not going to riot or raze the House of Commons. People like me (inadvertently) caused this constitutional crisis by thinking EU withdrawal could be achieved without first electing a government ideologically committed to the idea. Looking at it now*, that was unthinkably silly.

What can I say? People can believe all sorts of nonsense when they really want to.

Nix it. EU-sceptics like me need to start again.

* Actually, this is has been apparent for a very long time.