European Union Referendum

[Fompous Part]

We are obviously not leaving the EU on the 31st. The deal can't pass, there'll be an extension and a general election. 100% there will not be no deal - no one even wants that, definitely not Boris Johnson.

No deal is no one’s ideal outcome, but I’d always take no deal over revocation (which is clearly what the pro-Remain lot in parliament see as their end goal). I considered the possibility of no deal when I voted. I would have voted Remain if I’d considered no deal beyond the pale. Millions of other Leave voters think the same way. You’re universalising your own outlook there, matey.

Agree with the rest of your analysis, though. The deal will be rejected, an extension will be requested and (grudgingly) granted. An election will be necessary. Boris can fight it saying he tried in good faith but was thwarted by a group of Remain-favouring MPs who were never going to approve a WA (whatever its merits) because, to their minds, any deal that works towards Brexit is ipso facto a bad deal.

Elect me with a majority and I’ll get it done. That simple message, plus the sheer rubbishness of Jeremy Corbyn, plus the weirdness of FPTP, might be enough to secure a working majority. Knowing us, though, we’ll return a hung parliament and, well, fuck knows where we go from there.

All those radio adverts our taxes have been wasted on

Never mind that. What about my long-desired 50p Brexit coin, Matthew? The Royal Mint was instructed to produce 3 million of the fuckers with "31 October 2019" inscribed on them.

 

[Gassy]

You can quote part of my post if you like and ignore the fact I reach an opinion at the bottom. As long as that gives you a chuckle that’s fine by me.

Ok so you’ve obviously missed my point.

I’m saying that ultimately 3 1/2 years later we have the same options we had after the first day.

This Tory leadership is an absolute joke tbh.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

So that puts to bed every argument you & others put together about how it's a 'surrender bill', the EU have no incentive to negotiate a deal, they just want us to be trapped etc etc.

I said they had no incentive to negotiate so long as No Deal was off the table. No Deal is on the table.

Oh and by the way, junker has absolutely 0 say about granting extensions. Effectively, it's the same as you or me saying it.

Make your mind up. You can't have it both ways.

We are obviously not leaving the EU on the 31st. The deal can't pass, there'll be an extension and a general election. 100% there will not be no deal - no one even wants that, definitely not Boris Johnson.

All those radio adverts our taxes have been wasted on :-((

I don't think No Deal hurts Boris so long as there's a broadly palatable agreement with the EU that Remainers torpedo. He'll have done everything he promised, and is already considerably more popular than Jez, even with 18-24 year olds, amazingly. The only reasons I can think of for the EU to refuse an extension is either a) as a tactic to coerce parliament into accepting the deal or b) because Boris has demonstrated to them that he can leave without a deal regardless of what the Surrender Acts says.

 

[OhGodGlovePuppet]

I took the extension comment as ''there's no need for one now we have a deal''.

If it goes down tomorrow, they will extend.

 

[Gassy]

It astonishes me how people can follow Boris SO much. It’s like a cult.

Literally whatever he says, gets repeated as fact - it’s unreal.

May tells everyone we’re leaving on X date. We didn’t and she’s considered a liar. May asks for an extension after being forced (although not legally) to request an extension. It’s considered her fault and her extension, not parliaments.

Boris tells everyone we’re leaving 31st October. When/If we don’t, it’s not his fault, he’s still a legend & the only one who wants good for our country. Boris asks for an extension, but in fact it’s not his fault it’s parliaments - oh and to top it off, he ‘never requested the extension, parliament did’.

This is propaganda tbh. Is it also sexist? Perhaps. Probably not intentional sexism, but I bet the fact that May is a woman makes a difference in people’s opinions.

 

[smat]

I’d always take no deal over revocation

Have you pivoted from:

It was a mistake.

?

No beef, just interested.

 

[Laker]

It astonishes me how people can follow Boris SO much. It’s like a cult.

Literally whatever he says, gets repeated as fact - it’s unreal.

May tells everyone we’re leaving on X date. We didn’t and she’s considered a liar. May asks for an extension after being forced (although not legally) to request an extension. It’s considered her fault and her extension, not parliaments.

Boris tells everyone we’re leaving 31st October. When/If we don’t, it’s not his fault, he’s still a legend & the only one who wants good for our country. Boris asks for an extension, but in fact it’s not his fault it’s parliaments - oh and to top it off, he ‘never requested the extension, parliament did’.

This is propaganda tbh. Is it also sexist? Perhaps. Probably not intentional sexism, but I bet the fact that May is a woman makes a difference in people’s opinions.

Boris’s whole behaviour at the moment is centred around “look I’m trying to deliver Brexit and Parliament is blocking it from happening”. It’s got my vote next time round as that is exactly what’s happening.

He may be a grade A prick but there is no way I can vote for Corbyn who told Boris today that his plan for 2020 is just to block and obstruct Brexit rather than to do anything productive. It wouldn’t surprise me if Corbyn doesn’t even want an election at all as he’s petrified of the outcome. That Labour MP from the northern leave voting constituency (sorry, missed her name) was spot on in her comments to Corbyn in the HoC yesterday.

I can sympathise (though not agree) with the SNP being against Brexit as they want independence for their country that votes remain. But Labour voted to invoke Article 50 now want to stay in and the Libs want to ignore the referendum even happened despite the fact their leader at the time, Clegg, had leaflets printed asking for a bloody referendum.

I voted Labour at the last election and a large part of that was down to them saying they’d respect the result of the referendum. But never again, I’ve learnt my mistake. This is not just about staying in the EU, it’s about trampling all over a vote we were told would be binding. It’s a dangerous trait reminiscent of how the referendum in France against the Lisbon Treaty was ignored.

Though it’s massively unlikely, I’m praying the EU just kick us out now in pure frustration. Be ironic if the institution Brexiteers want to escape from are the ones who actually deliver the result that was voted for and deliver the hard Brexit the remain-majority Parliament want to avoid.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

It astonishes me how people can follow Boris SO much. It’s like a cult.


Literally whatever he says, gets repeated as fact - it’s unreal.

May tells everyone we’re leaving on X date. We didn’t and she’s considered a liar. May asks for an extension after being forced (although not legally) to request an extension. It’s considered her fault and her extension, not parliaments.

Boris tells everyone we’re leaving 31st October. When/If we don’t, it’s not his fault, he’s still a legend & the only one who wants good for our country. Boris asks for an extension, but in fact it’s not his fault it’s parliaments - oh and to top it off, he ‘never requested the extension, parliament did’.

This is propaganda tbh. Is it also sexist? Perhaps. Probably not intentional sexism, but I bet the fact that May is a woman makes a difference in people’s opinions.

Parliament forced Boris to ask for an extension. Parliament didn't force May to ask for an extension. Those are the facts. There's nothing astonishing about the public viewing Boris differently to May when he has quite clearly acted differently to May. She effectively behaved as a Remainer (which she is) in taking No Deal off the table and ensuring that any deal would be Brexit in name only. Boris negotiated a much more palatable deal to most people (I would still prefer No Deal) and was prepared to leave with no deal at all on the 31st. It has only been through unprecedented legal action and foreign collusion that he has (probably) been stopped from doing that. I don't particularly like Boris, I don't trust him on the whole, but in terms of trying to get a decent Brexit outcome it's night and day between him and Theresa May.

 

[Gassy]

No, she acted with more intelligence in keeping no deal off the table.

The fact is that Boris’ government asked for the extension. Boris and yourself can point fingers at whoever you want but the real fact is that Boris requested it. He broke the law regarding prorogation, no one forced him to do that. Why not break it again without requesting it? He’d surely go down as a legend in leavers eyes. On top of that the courts/Bercow may have intervened and sent it themselves, then he could actually say he didn’t do it, but the fact is he did.

His actions also lead to them putting this bill forward, it’s entirely of his own making. Boris has a majority, he literally threw it away and is now blaming everyone else for it.

It’s true, he is acting differently to May - he lied to the queen and broke the law. Yet still has support because he ‘wants’ to pursue a no deal.

Regarding Lakers point about JC, I can agree to some points. I’m not a massive JC lover, but they’ll get my vote based on their manifesto - I’m actually also trying to look at something else last Brexit. I won’t vote Lib Dems as I don’t believe revoking article 50 is the right thing to do. But funny you say what Boris is doing Laker, May did had the same issue - would you have voted for her?

I read an interesting blog last night. Some points are bullshit of course but I really do agree with a lot of the points it makes about some people:

https://medium.com/the-politicalists/the-17-cognitive-biases-that-explain-brexit-894ec10e03b8

 

[Laker]

No, she acted with more intelligence in keeping no deal off the table.

The fact is that Boris’ government asked for the extension. Boris and yourself can point fingers at whoever you want but the real fact is that Boris requested it. He broke the law regarding prorogation, no one forced him to do that. Why not break it again without requesting it? He’d surely go down as a legend in leavers eyes. On top of that the courts/Bercow may have intervened and sent it themselves, then he could actually say he didn’t do it, but the fact is he did.

His actions also lead to them putting this bill forward, it’s entirely of his own making. Boris has a majority, he literally threw it away and is now blaming everyone else for it.

It’s true, he is acting differently to May - he lied to the queen and broke the law. Yet still has support because he ‘wants’ to pursue a no deal.

Regarding Lakers point about JC, I can agree to some points. I’m not a massive JC lover, but they’ll get my vote based on their manifesto - I’m actually also trying to look at something else last Brexit. I won’t vote Lib Dems as I don’t believe revoking article 50 is the right thing to do. But funny you say what Boris is doing Laker, May did had the same issue - would you have voted for her?

I read an interesting blog last night. Some points are bullshit of course but I really do agree with a lot of the points it makes about some people:

https://medium.com/the-politicalists/the-17-cognitive-biases-that-explain-brexit-894ec10e03b8

May’s problem was she was a remainder negotiating a Brexit deal, it was like a racist fighting for ethnic minorities’ rights. It’s not going to be successful because they don’t actually believe it.

And because of that I’d not have voted for May - I don’t believe she ever wanted Brexit. I’d probably have either not voted or voted Brexit party purely because they would be the only party seriously trying to deliver the referendum result.

But it wouldn’t be ideal - I’m not a fan of one-policy parties and this is why I voted Labour last time round. I agree with you that there is more to life than Brexit and I didn’t like the welfare cuts the Tories we’re proposing - it needed some socialism to balance them out. Plus Labour were promising Brexit would happen them so it was a logical vote - I assumed a Corbyn Labour would have supported the Brexit process, we’d be out by now and the restriction to Tory powers would have come into action. As it is Corbyn has just obstructed the process which then fucks everything I voted for - no Brexit and nothing else happening because we’re stuck on Brexit. I regret my vote, not that it made an ounce of difference round here.

I’m coming round to the idea of an extension but only if there is a general election. We badly need it as we’re in a stalemate at the moment which in my opinion is even worse than staying or going.

On the link you provided, a lot of it is probably true - can’t deny some of it is true to me though I am aware of many of these concepts and I try not to let them influence my thinking - if I did myself drifting towards these traits, I try to pull myself out of it. To be honest, I’m more concerned by parliament ignoring the referendum result altogether as that’s a very dangerous precedent to set. Whether it is good for the country or not is second to the principle of democracy to me.

 

[Fompous Part]

No beef, just interested.

Well, though I appreciate it, there’s no need to clarify the lack of beef. Yours is a fair question. And even if weren’t, I’m hardly the most delicate flower in the garden.

To clarify, I think the mistake was believing that Brexit could be satisfactorily achieved without a pro-Brexit government with a working parliamentary majority.

I suppose I had this rather quaint/naïve/silly/idiotic (delete as appropriate) notion that certain ideas over-arched the petty factionalism of British party politics – one being that you respect the outcome of electoral contests whether you like them or not.

Sure, I expected some resistance to Brexit – some ideological, some opportunistic – but ultimately I thought this would give way to a more pragmatic and principled view among Remainers that reversing or cancelling the result would do irreparable harm to the idea of participatory democracy (if the 2016 result doesn’t count, why should any other?), and that it would be better in the long run to grudgingly accept the result and build a strong re-join movement. Clearly, I overestimated them.

I also trusted the Conservative Party to handle the negotiations and withdrawal process more competently than they have. That overestimation is rather less forgivable.

I favour no deal over revocation because (1) I remain strongly opposed to our membership of the EU, and (2) I think revocation would be a victory for the worst kind of politics and judicial activism. In short, I still think I am right on the basic leave/remain question. I regret not listening to people (e.g. Peter Hitchens) who took a rather less optimistic view of the whole thing.

If I’d known 10 years ago that so many politicians and ordinary people would rather trash the democratic ideal than accept a temporary defeat, I might have taken a different strategic view. I still think EU membership is one of those big constitutional and existential questions that should be decided by a referendum, but it's daft to do it unless the government is ideologically committed to the most radical option on the ballot paper (Leave). Doing the referendum before achieving the required change of government was a bad shortcut, and most of the problems we have now stem from that.

 

[smat]

ultimately I thought this would give way to a more pragmatic and principled view among Remainers that reversing or cancelling the result would do irreparable harm to the idea of participatory democracy (if the 2016 result doesn’t count, why should any other?), and that it would be better in the long run to grudgingly accept the result and build a strong re-join movement. Clearly, I overestimated them.

Me too, though I think whatever personality disorder Theresa May has is responsible for the morass that has ensued since the referendum (no offence to people with personality disorders). There was probably a chance for a soft British Exit three years ago that would have pissed lots of people off but basically been something a majority could have lived with, and been a fair reading of a 52-48 vote. Instead May's impossible negotiating position, disastrous electoral gamble and subsequent stalemate has given everyone the time and space to just get angrier and more entrenched in their opposite positions.

What do you think of the idea of a confirmatory referendum on a deal?

Doing the referendum before achieving the required change of government was a bad shortcut, and most of the problems we have now stem from that.

At least David Cameron has paid the price for this mess eh.

 

[Fompous Part]

May's impossible negotiating position, disastrous electoral gamble and subsequent stalemate has given everyone the time and space to just get angrier and more entrenched in their opposite positions.

Yeah, I mostly agree. We’re a people accustomed to voting on a Thursday night and then watching the new Prime Minister move into No.10 the next morning. We're not used to there being a years-spanning process between voting and implementation of the result. For a long time, I thought our political stability owed to an unspoken mutual commitment to honour democratic results whatever the outcome. Now I wonder whether it was more a time-thing: we usually do transfers of power so quickly that there’s no time for bad loser politics.

That said, there was definitely a shift after the 2017 election. If I may lazily co-opt the Kubler-Ross model here, I think by mid-2017 most remain-favouring folk (certainly most of those in my social or professional circles) had passed through Anger, Denial and Bargaining, and were hovering somewhere between Depression and Acceptance. Theresa May needlessly throwing away a slim but workable majority (instead of greatly increasing her majority, as expected) sent them right back to Anger, Denial and Bargaining, and many of them haven’t moved on since.

What do you think of the idea of a confirmatory referendum on a deal?

Intuitively against, but let's attempt a halfway adult discussion. What is your proposed question? What would be the default legal position if the deal was rejected?

 

[Laker]

Surely the question would be deal v no deal? We’ve already had the referendum where remain was rejected?

 

[Gassy]

May’s problem was she was a remainder negotiating a Brexit deal, it was like a racist fighting for ethnic minorities’ rights. It’s not going to be successful because they don’t actually believe it.

And because of that I’d not have voted for May - I don’t believe she ever wanted Brexit. I’d probably have either not voted or voted Brexit party purely because they would be the only party seriously trying to deliver the referendum result.

But it wouldn’t be ideal - I’m not a fan of one-policy parties and this is why I voted Labour last time round. I agree with you that there is more to life than Brexit and I didn’t like the welfare cuts the Tories we’re proposing - it needed some socialism to balance them out. Plus Labour were promising Brexit would happen them so it was a logical vote - I assumed a Corbyn Labour would have supported the Brexit process, we’d be out by now and the restriction to Tory powers would have come into action. As it is Corbyn has just obstructed the process which then fucks everything I voted for - no Brexit and nothing else happening because we’re stuck on Brexit. I regret my vote, not that it made an ounce of difference round here.

I’m coming round to the idea of an extension but only if there is a general election. We badly need it as we’re in a stalemate at the moment which in my opinion is even worse than staying or going.

On the link you provided, a lot of it is probably true - can’t deny some of it is true to me though I am aware of many of these concepts and I try not to let them influence my thinking - if I did myself drifting towards these traits, I try to pull myself out of it. To be honest, I’m more concerned by parliament ignoring the referendum result altogether as that’s a very dangerous precedent to set. Whether it is good for the country or not is second to the principle of democracy to me.

I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t believe that was the reason May did a bad job. There are things I do, you we, we all do that we don’t 100% believe in but still get the job done to the expectation required. Mays problem IMO was:

1. She was crap at her job (shit negotiating over citizens rights for 2 years and gave away a majority which would have seen Brexit completed 2 years ago)
2. She tried too hard and actually lost sight of her end goal. I don’t think I’ve seen a more passionate PM on my years of following politics.
3. She was doomed to fail - it’s like whoever took the job after Ferguson, we all knew they’d fail.

Completely fair points on why you voted Labour and why you’d have voted for the Brexit party. My first ever vote as an 18 year old was Lib Dem’s Nick Clegg, that’s was a harsh but fast lesson to politics for me.

I completely agree on the basis of the stalemate, it does no one any good. I’d rather a referendum of Boris’ deal or remain. But that’s the split isn’t it? Leavers want a general election, remainders want a referendum - both know they’d win their own preference, hence they go for that choice.

Fair enough on your honesty regarding the link, I didn’t mean anyone specific here, actually more absolute planks I see online - although I’m sure you see the same the other way around.

The whole Brexit thing is actually our governments self created problem. People in the UK seem to think that being in the EU means we have no control of our borders. That’s bollocks. They also believe that people can come in from fellow EU countries and work without issues, or not work even. To an extent they can, but that’s actually because we allow them too. We actually employ this policy. In Slovakia the rule is that once you enter (as an EU citizen) you have 6 months you can stay (which you must have health insurance btw). After that you must legally declare at the police with proof of work contract, apartment contract & birth certificate/passport. If you don’t have all of these (notified too btw) then you’re out, end of discussion.

Funnily enough if we would employ that, as is our right, whilst we’d have many leavers still I don’t think the numbers would be anywhere near as high as they are/were at the time of the referendum.

 

[Fompous Part]

My first ever vote as an 18 year old was Lib Dem’s Nick Clegg, that’s was a harsh but fast lesson to politics for me.

We all makes mistakes in our salad days. I voted for Tony Blair once.

 

[smat]

Intuitively against, but let's attempt a halfway adult discussion. What is your proposed question? What would be the default legal position if the deal was rejected?

I don't know - it's not even my position tbh, but Labour's. I don't want to see another referendum, the last one was horrible and I think my side would probably lose again. I still think a soft leave with a customs union is the most sensible option by far but appreciate I am with about 3% of the country on that. Certainly very few of my family and friends want that, they want Brexit to be stopped.

Surely the question would be deal v no deal? We’ve already had the referendum where remain was rejected?

Bit pedantic.

 

[Fompous Part]

I don't know - it's not even my position tbh, but Labour's. I don't want to see another referendum, the last one was horrible and I think my side would probably lose again. I still think a soft leave with a customs union is the most sensible option by far but appreciate I am with about 3% of the country on that. Certainly very few of my family and friends want that, they want Brexit to be stopped.

Fair enough. Appreciate your candour.

Up for an election on December 12th?

 

[smat]

Fair enough. Appreciate your candour.

Up for an election on December 12th?

Haha well I was for about half an hour! The thought of Johnson riding into a general election campaign on the back of successfully passing his withdrawal agreement turns my stomach. Rest assured, when it comes, I'll get stuck in.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

No, she acted with more intelligence in keeping no deal off the table.

Keeping No Deal off the table was moronic, as has been previously explain numerous times, and has indeed been demonstrated by the threat of No Deal helping Boris get a better deal than May.

The fact is that Boris’ government asked for the extension. Boris and yourself can point fingers at whoever you want but the real fact is that Boris requested it. He broke the law regarding prorogation, no one forced him to do that. Why not break it again without requesting it? He’d surely go down as a legend in leavers eyes. On top of that the courts/Bercow may have intervened and sent it themselves, then he could actually say he didn’t do it, but the fact is he did.

[...]

It’s true, he is acting differently to May - he lied to the queen and broke the law. Yet still has support because he ‘wants’ to pursue a no deal.

Boris did not break the law regarded prorogation, nor was it suggested anywhere in the ruling that he lied to the Queen. A partisan court deemed it unlawful after the fact, that's not the same thing. No law was broken. I would like to see him ignore the Surrender Act, personally, and I'm disappointed that he didn't. We don't know the contents of the letter(s) he sent though.

https://medium.com/the-politicalists/the-17-cognitive-biases-that-explain-brexit-894ec10e03b8

I would suggest that this person has a below-average understanding of the Leave position, which for a Remainer really is saying something. It's bad enough to believe that the issue is purely economic, let alone openly admit that you can't understand why people would dislike the EU in the first place. It's just a ramble about how everyone is biased, but the Remainers are definitely right because the only question is macro economics and only the people with the answer are partially EU-funded internationalist organizations like the IMF.

 

[Gassy]

Ok so he acted unlawfully & misled the queen, rather than lied. To use those arguments as a positive as to why he’s actually doing a good job is beyond clutching at straws.

He’s getting f*cked from most directions and it’s entirely of his own making. Keeping no deal on the table is completely moronic, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

The fact that people WANT the PM to break the law speaks volumes tbh

 

[Modernist]

just give the tories a majority now and save us the hassle.

 

[PuB]

The suggestion that Boris has got a better deal than May is also moronic.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The suggestion that Boris has got a better deal than May is also moronic.

Attempt to substantiate this claim. Go on. I dare you. May's deal kept us is in a position where the EU could keep us in a customs union without the ability to negotiate free trade agreements with the rest of the world in perpetuity. It tied us to EU regulations that we had no power to control. We'd have had even less sovereignty than if we'd remained in the EU. It was the definition of the worst of both worlds.

 

[PuB]

Ireland.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Perhaps you could elaborate.

 

[Gassy]

Mays deal didn’t tie us into anything. It MIGHT have tied us into something. Btw that’s the deal Boris voted for don’t forget

2 points I find hilarious:
1. Brexit was given to us by the Tories, negotiated by the Tories and fucked up by the Tories. Yet people still want to vote for them because they’re stupid enough to believe the bullshit of ‘parliament requested the extension’ or ‘its not the Tories fault’
2. Boris wants an election because he believes the public have changed their mind since the 2017 general election. However, they couldn’t possibly have changed their mind since 2016 referendum and they shouldn’t be given the chance to

You really couldn’t make it up

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

[...]
You really couldn’t make it up

I mean, you literally just did, but OK.


1. Brexit was given to us by the people, fucked up by a Remainer, improved by a Brexiteer, and then blocked by Remainers. Worse still, those Remainers are now conspiring to block it entirely. They don't seem to be above colluding with a foreign parliament to get it done either.

2. Boris doesn't want an election because the public changed their minds, he wants an election because Parliament went back on it's word and is currently not fit for purpose. Labour politicians were elected on the promise that the vote would be respected and there would be no second referendum. Tory MPs were elected based on the promise that we would leave with a good deal or no deal. If parliament won't enact the will of the people that elected it then the people should get the chance to replace it with a parliament that will. The only reason anyone is against a general election is because they see it as an impediment to stopping Brexit.


* I actually would not be completely against a second referendum personally, but the question of leaving the European Union has already been answered, so any question on a second ballot should be between Deal or No Deal, not Deal or Remain.

* May's deal didn't 'maybe' tie us into something, it objectively did tie us into something. The only uncertainty would be whether the EU would ever let us out of it. With no incentive on their part to do that, it's reasonable to assume that they wouldn't. It's a pathetic surrendering of sovereignty in either case.

* It would be hilarious if in the end Macron is the hero Brexiteers need to get this done.

 

[Gassy]

I don’t have the time to reply fully atm but:

I made it up?! Are you f*cking kidding me?! You literally just ignored that the Tories held a referendum and ignored the fact that the negotiator was a Tory. Instead you call her a remainder, rather than accept the fact that she is and was a Tory.

Stop hiding from the truth and face the real world, you & Boris can bend facts all you want and blame others for the failure, it’s very Trump-esque. Honestly I don’t know how people fall for the bullshit.

I’m actually stunned you can’t accept Tories fucked up but instead blame it on others. Open your eyes ffs from the propaganda for once

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I don’t have the time to reply fully atm but:

I made it up?! Are you f*cking kidding me?! You literally just ignored that the Tories held a referendum and ignored the fact that the negotiator was a Tory. Instead you call her a remainder, rather than accept the fact that she is and was a Tory.

You said that the Tories gave us Brexit. They didn't. They gave us a referendum (much to their credit) and the people gave us Brexit. I've said nothing at all to suggest that I don't accept that May is a Tory. Her negligence however is much more to do with her being a Remainer, as evidenced by Boris - a Brexiteer, and also a Tory - doing a much better job than her.

I’m actually stunned you can’t accept Tories fucked up but instead blame it on others. Open your eyes ffs from the propaganda for once

I've blamed May, a Tory, multiple times for her failures. You seem very confused.