European Union Referendum

[Laker]

Have we tried? State aid rules could theoretically block us from doing so, but their track record suggests that it’s unlikely they’d do so. Without even mentioning that we were fundamental to blocking attempts to stop the flow of cheap Chinese steel into the EU in the first place. Sigh.

I imagine we didn’t try. A similar case of state funding of the steel industry in Belgium resulted in the Belgian government having to recoup over €200m euros from the industry after an EU court order in 2016.

The two main exceptions to state aid in industries are for defence purposes or where failure of an industry/company would create a “serious disturbance in the economy”, hence why the banks were bailed out in 08/09. Unfortunately the collapse of British Steel isn’t supported as another steel provider (probably China) will just pick up the slack - ie no impact to the wider economy.

I don’t know about your point about not stopping cheap steel coming in from China but it wouldn’t surprise me based on recent governments. But that doesn’t mean it should be literally impossible to provide state aid to save 24,000 jobs.

 

[Laker]

Millions of EU citizens being denied their chance to vote today as well. Wonder which way they would have voted.

I also didn't receive my postal vote in Bratislava, guess which was I would have voted.

Same as last time with the referendum, thousands of Brits abroad didn't get their chance to vote.

What a disgrace of a government

I’m beginning to believe democracy is an ideal rather than a reality.

 

[Modernist]

I imagine we didn’t try. A similar case of state funding of the steel industry in Belgium resulted in the Belgian government having to recoup over €200m euros from the industry after an EU court order in 2016.

The two main exceptions to state aid in industries are for defence purposes or where failure of an industry/company would create a “serious disturbance in the economy”, hence why the banks were bailed out in 08/09. Unfortunately the collapse of British Steel isn’t supported as another steel provider (probably China) will just pick up the slack - ie no impact to the wider economy.

I don’t know about your point about not stopping cheap steel coming in from China but it wouldn’t surprise me based on recent governments. But that doesn’t mean it should be literally impossible to provide state aid to save 24,000 jobs.

Hold on a sec I thought the referendum was all about democracy.

 

[Neymar]

Remain = stuff stays the same, at worst.

Leave = only some stuff goes to shit, at best.

You people are idiots.

 

[Camborne Gills]

Remain = stuff stays the same, at worst.

Leave = only some stuff goes to shit, at best.

You people are idiots.

What do you base that on? To be honest we should have accepted De Gaulle's 'Non' as a final answer

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Remain = stuff stays the same, at worst.

Leave = only some stuff goes to shit, at best.

You people are idiots.

Is this the braindead propaganda they feed people on the continent?

 

[Kneezy]

Remain = stuff stays the same, at worst.

Leave = only some stuff goes to shit, at best.

You people are idiots.

Some people (like yourself) can't form your own opinion. You let other remainers do it for you - who let someone else do it for them.....who let Europe's leaders who have THEIR opinions done for them by multinationalists.
Democracy ? That's "ist" and "phobic" If you don't have an answer, and can't rig democratic means by rigged postal votes, demand a "second referendum" where you WILL make sure theres 10 times as many postal votes as there should be (Labour and Trumps heterophobic opponents are busy doing plans for that as we speak)

 

[MUFCdon]

People who hate straight people are the first to attempt postal vote fraud.

Its always the fucking same with those guys

 

[PuB]

I guess they just hate Postman Pat

 

[Super_horns]

The saga goes on .

What will the General election bring ?

Massive gains for the Bexit parties and a bad night for Boris and co ?

 

[Gassy]

The saga goes on .

What will the General election bring ?

Massive gains for the Bexit parties and a bad night for Boris and co ?

Don't think there will be an election yet. They'll push through this legislation first and an election will be after

After the the legislation potentially goes through and if Brexit is delayed until end fo January, I wonder if Labour would put an ultimatum to Boris: We'll hold a vote of no confidence or you hold a second referendum - I wonder what he'd choose

 

[Chris FGR]

Will it be another hung parliament though?

What if Lib Dems get more seats then the Brexit Party, wont this just carry the mess on.

 

[Gassy]

Will it be another hung parliament though?

What if Lib Dems get more seats then the Brexit Party, wont this just carry the mess on.

Almost certainly a hung parliament, I think it would just come to who can put together a government fastest out of that.

Let's be honest, we are going to be in this situation for a long, long time. Let's say we leave with no deal, parties will campaign to enter back into the EU, it'll be their main manifesto. If we remain, Tories & Brexit will also campaign to leave if they get back in power.

Who ever then is in power, will be blocked and held up in parliament as much as possible to stop each other.

People seem to think this will go away, but ultimately it won't. There's more a of a chance that it might calm down after a 2nd referendum. If leave wins then the remainers will have no choice but to accept that. If remain wins then no doubt leavers will want a 3rd and final say, but at least we'd have a bit more stability for our economy & businesses

 

[shoddycollins]

Oh ello

Good to see we're tackling the issues of the day here.

It won't go away because it serves the purposes of divisive and populist politicians far too well for them to let it go away. Unless someone can smash through the deadlock with a new politics that can appeal to moderates in both leaver and remained camps and gets people off voting entirely based on Brexit-related issues (even after Brexit has happened) this is going to be what this country looks like for a long time. Anyone trying to do that will naturally be presented as evil by treacherous by both hardcore no-deal Brexiters as well as hardcore revoke article 50 Remainers

Like, something I've always wanted to know, and I don't know if anyone here can answer, is who exactly will be 'betrayed' by Britain leaving the EU with a deal in place that addresses all the really thorny issues like the Irish border, trade, and movement of people? Why do Boris Johnson and his chums at the Daily Mail, Express and Sun want people to think that anyone who wants a deal is a traitor and an enemy of the people (if anyone wants to know why I'm not levelling the same criticism at hardcore Remainers then the fact is that camp is just nowhere near as large or powerful)?

Bit of a rhetorical question because I don't think there are 17 million people who would be betrayed at all. Surely Brexit is Brexit, it is the government's job now to find a way of leaving the EU that a) works and b) is acceptable to the majority. This I think would have been acceptable to the majority of leave voters back in 2016, back when 'no-deal' was dismissed as remainer scaremongering. Since then the scaremongering has been mostly no-deal advocates telling leave voters that if they don't get in line then Brexit won't happen at all, but even now I think a sizeable minority would find a deal acceptable.

Yet the government aren't doing either of this things, and instead just pressing on with a no-deal Brexit that a) won't work either for trade or for the Irish Border and b) is unacceptable to not only the 15 million who voted remain but also the majority who didn't vote and a significant portion of the 17 million who voted leave, and they're doing this why? Partly because it serves their own interests, gives them more power post-Brexit to make their own rules, and partly because pursuing an extreme course of action allows them to divide the population and prevent the people from uniting against them.

 

[Chris FGR]

Probably the off shore tax havens the EU were clamping down on, plus the fact that the likes of Murdoch can't have much influence on the EU but does have a lot here. They want a clean break. It's got fuck all to do with the will of the people.

I don't mind seeing the power returned to the UK government, I get why people like the idea. Unfortunately all our politicians are either bent fuckers, deluded or utterly useless. Can't see a point in a GE, there's no one decent to vote for.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Like, something I've always wanted to know, and I don't know if anyone here can answer, is who exactly will be 'betrayed' by Britain leaving the EU with a deal in place that addresses all the really thorny issues like the Irish border, trade, and movement of people? Why do Boris Johnson and his chums at the Daily Mail, Express and Sun want people to think that anyone who wants a deal is a traitor and an enemy of the people (if anyone wants to know why I'm not levelling the same criticism at hardcore Remainers then the fact is that camp is just nowhere near as large or powerful)?

Everyone wants that deal including Boris himself. But if you go to the party you are negotiating with and tell them that you will definitely, definitely (by law) accept a deal in the end then you are either a simpleton or a traitor. The EU have zero incentive to come to the negotiating table so long as No Deal is off the table. Labour Remainers know this. They're not idiots. They're not scared of No Deal they simply see an opportunity to torpedo Brexit in it's entirety. May was not an idiot either. She didn't help draft the surrender treaty because she got to where she is with no notion of how negotiation works, she's a Remainer who saw an opportunity to saddle the UK with a deal that would produce one of three outcomes - a deal tantamount to staying inside the EU, an abandonment of Brexit entirely, or the much less likely (in her estimation) No Deal Brexit. The approach Boris is taking is the only sane way to get the best deal possible, and what I said we should have been doing months ago.

Bit of a rhetorical question because I don't think there are 17 million people who would be betrayed at all. Surely Brexit is Brexit, it is the government's job now to find a way of leaving the EU that a) works and b) is acceptable to the majority. This I think would have been acceptable to the majority of leave voters back in 2016, back when 'no-deal' was dismissed as remainer scaremongering. Since then the scaremongering has been mostly no-deal advocates telling leave voters that if they don't get in line then Brexit won't happen at all, but even now I think a sizeable minority would find a deal acceptable.

In fairness, no one could have reasonably been expected to see May's duplicitousness coming. Heck, at the time we didn't even know that Cameron was going to cut and run.

There should never have been a Remainer in charge of Brexit negotiations.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The saga goes on .

What will the General election bring ?

Massive gains for the Bexit parties and a bad night for Boris and co ?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1169161712978841601

 

[Gassy]

You still didn't answer the question though.

The EU have plenty of motivation to come to the table with no deal off the table. That's just the latest Tory punchline to stop Labour.

I'll admit that it's been than it was about a month ago though, with leavers' main argument being, "Let's just leave with no deal, people are saying its going to be awful but they don't actually know that, so let's do it, let's risk it"

 

[Gassy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1169161712978841601

Not sure who that is, but he is well out of his depth in that interview.

Interviewer wiped the floor with him

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You still didn't answer the question though.

The EU have plenty of motivation to come to the table with no deal off the table. That's just the latest Tory punchline to stop Labour.

No, it's what I have been telling you in this thread since long before Boris took over. What incentive is there? Tell me? They've already agreed a deal. If No Deal is off the table then all they have to do is keep extending Article 50 to keep us inside the EU and... wait. The only leverage we have is the threat of No Deal. We could stay in an Article 50 extension in perpetuity for all they care.

On a side note, one card that Boris could play is to simply approach another EU leader and get them to veto any extension. Orbán might be up for it.

 

[Chris FGR]

If that happens what's to stop parliament revoking article 50? And then instantly triggering it again.

Pretty clear Boris wants a no deal, been very little effort to renegotiate anything.

 

[Gassy]

No, it's what I have been telling you in this thread since long before Boris took over. What incentive is there? Tell me? They've already agreed a deal. If No Deal is off the table then all they have to do is keep extending Article 50 to keep us inside the EU and... wait. The only leverage we have is the threat of No Deal. We could stay in an Article 50 extension in perpetuity for all they care.

On a side note, one card that Boris could play is to simply approach another EU leader and get them to veto any extension. Orbán might be up for it.

What incentive is there? To name a few:

• Firstly we're (off the top of my head) the 3rd largest contributor to the EU budget. We' e pledged X amount until December 2020, when that runs out the EU will come begging or kick us out themselves. Make no doubt of that.
• The uncertainty of EU citizens living in the UK.
• The uncertainty of UK citizens living in the EU (like myself)
• The instability & growing unrest in Ireland
• Less tourists coming to the EU from UK, however our tourism has increased due to the £ being weak.
• Businesses leaving the UK (we've already seen some giants) and not opening another office in the EU, meaning prices increase for all
• Local/small businesses in the EU also struggling
• Why would they be happy to just keep us extending it forever? If that were allowed, we'd be making no contributions to the budget but still benefit from EU - if that was the case, every country would just do that, leading to the eventual fall of the Union.
• Finally, the also want a deal? Don't let Boris & the tabloids trick people into thinking the EU is some organisation where they're desperate to trap us here against our own will & that with this bill, they've finally got their way, conspiracy theory much?

Just to name a few off the top of my head.

Regarding Orban - never going to happen. They discussed this on 5Live the other day and even a Tory said not a chance. Firstly, it would hurt the Hungarian economy so why would he do that to his own country, nationals living in the UK and UK citizens in Hungary? On top of that, the rest of the EU would put huge pressure on Hungary. It's not like we could offer him a nice trade deal after, seeming as you can't trade with specific EU countries. There is literally no gain for him, but so much to lose by doing it.

Could he veto his own vote though? Possibly - not sure the legal implications on that with the bill.

EDIT: Just to add on top of this, of course this bill weakens our strength, no doubt. However, it doesn't mean that the UK still can't get a deal. We just need to sort Ireland out tbh. It doesn't mean the EU have all the power and the UK none. Sure we're in a slightly weaker position, but it's worth the risk of dodging a no deal exit.

 

[shoddycollins]

No, it's what I have been telling you in this thread since long before Boris took over. What incentive is there? Tell me? They've already agreed a deal. If No Deal is off the table then all they have to do is keep extending Article 50 to keep us inside the EU and... wait. The only leverage we have is the threat of No Deal. We could stay in an Article 50 extension in perpetuity for all they care.

On a side note, one card that Boris could play is to simply approach another EU leader and get them to veto any extension. Orbán might be up for it.

This is kind of based on the assumption that a deal could either be good for the UK or good for the EU but not both. There's always some things in any negotiation where compromise is required, but he big stuff such as movement across the Irish border and avoiding a no deal is obviously beneficial to both parties, nobody will benefit from the uncertainty of the door suddenly slamming shut, though the UK, as the minor partner, will be hurt more.

The reason the EU won't come back to the negotiating table is because they don't view Boris as having a democratic mandate and therefore see no point in negotiating with him, as far as they're concerned why bother renegotiating a deal they were already happy with on the whims of a man who might only last as PM for a few more months.

Trust is the big difference here. Every now and again Boris had indeed claimed to want 'a deal that is good for the UK' but I can trust him about as far as I can throw him, and he's a fat man and I came last in high school shot put. He's also said plenty to lead many, including me to believe he's wanted a no deal from day one.

I don't see why leave winning the referendum means a leave campaigner now has to be PM and lead negotiations. All the referendum result means is that we're leaving the EU, it doesn't mean that people who campaigned for us to remain are no longer entitled to a say and must not be involved in planning what happens next.

I'm totally behind the idea of leaving the EU even though I voted against that because there is a democratic mandate to do that, and for what it's worth you're a very rational person to debate this with. Many aren't so rational though, and any debate over no deal or indeed what deal might be best is usually presented by the media as being one one side 'what the people voted for' and on the other side 'contradicting what the people voted for'. This kind of loggerheads has become an issue not just in Brexit but in almost all fields of debate now.

 

[Laker]

Get ready for verbal diarrhoea - I’ve had months of this building but no one has been posting! Apologies in advance.

As with everyone else, I’ve been increasingly despairing at Parliament as this process has gone on. As said above, I don’t believe May didn’t really want to leave and therefore she approached the negotiations with no real determination to obtain a proper Brexit deal - she negotiated a “remain” Brexit deal, ie one that is Brexit in name only.

I’m a leaver and I was hopeful when Boris became PM as I thought he might actually be able to deliver. But his approach has been ridiculous and I agree that I think he actually wants no deal. No PM should want that in my opinion - if we end up there due to hitting a wall with the EU then that’s different but it shouldn’t be the starting desire.

As for proroguing Parliament in order to silence it? Do me a favour, that’s not on. He deserves to be hung out to dry on that.

I’m also despairing with remain MPs. We had a referendum where we were promised the result would be enacted. However the remain contingent have done all they can to stop us leaving. They don’t want a soft Brexit, they want no Brexit. And that’s wrong in my opinion. It’s a total rejection of a democratic referendum result.

Where we are now we need a delay to Brexit to January and a general election ASAP, if only to change the numbers in the Commons. The current dynamic has led to no consensus on anything - rejection of no deal but also rejection three times of the only deal offered. Both major parties voted for article 50 but now won’t follow it through. There’s now no party with a majority either so passing anything the government wants is nigh on impossible. Parties need to pick a leave or remain side and campaign on it in a GE then at least we should have a a majority leave or majority remain in Parliament that has a mandate to operate. It’ll almost certainly have to be a coalition but at least it’ll result in a majority for either position.

I hate the fact Boris has been kicking out Tories that disagree with him (it’s very wrong and so hypocritical but that’s another conversation). But it will lead to a Tory party at the GE who are clearly “leave” - there’s no
ambiguity there. If Labour would clearly define their position it would make things ten times easier. The Libs, Greens, Brexit party, SNP all have clear positions on Brexit.

I’m fully against another referendum with leave and remain on the ballot paper. We’ve done that. If we have another referendum (and I don’t really want one at all) it should be on the terms of our departure - do we want this deal or should we leave without it? We’ve rejected remaining once, the issue now is determining the terms of leaving. Im
not scared of losing an “in/out” vote, I just think it’s a waste of time which won’t solve anything.

Finally, the EU.... they need to budge don’t they? The deal negotiated has been presented to Parliament three times and has been rejected each time. It is not an acceptable deal to Parliament therefore it needs to be revisited - that’s democracy. Above i said about “hitting a wall” - if the EU refuse to negotiate the deal then I would like us to take no deal. I would like us to do everything we can to avoid it and going to the EU with decent alternative proposals needs to happen. But if they refuse to negotiate then we certainly shouldn’t go back to remaining because they’re being c***. We voted to leave and that needs to be the number one thing that happens.

Again, apologies all.

 

[Gassy]

Get ready for verbal diarrhoea - I’ve had months of this building but no one has been posting! Apologies in advance.

As with everyone else, I’ve been increasingly despairing at Parliament as this process has gone on. As said above, I don’t believe May didn’t really want to leave and therefore she approached the negotiations with no real determination to obtain a proper Brexit deal - she negotiated a “remain” Brexit deal, ie one that is Brexit in name only.

I’m a leaver and I was hopeful when Boris became PM as I thought he might actually be able to deliver. But his approach has been ridiculous and I agree that I think he actually wants no deal. No PM should want that in my opinion - if we end up there due to hitting a wall with the EU then that’s different but it shouldn’t be the starting desire.

As for proroguing Parliament in order to silence it? Do me a favour, that’s not on. He deserves to be hung out to dry on that.

I’m also despairing with remain MPs. We had a referendum where we were promised the result would be enacted. However the remain contingent have done all they can to stop us leaving. They don’t want a soft Brexit, they want no Brexit. And that’s wrong in my opinion. It’s a total rejection of a democratic referendum result.

Where we are now we need a delay to Brexit to January and a general election ASAP, if only to change the numbers in the Commons. The current dynamic has led to no consensus on anything - rejection of no deal but also rejection three times of the only deal offered. Both major parties voted for article 50 but now won’t follow it through. There’s now no party with a majority either so passing anything the government wants is nigh on impossible. Parties need to pick a leave or remain side and campaign on it in a GE then at least we should have a a majority leave or majority remain in Parliament that has a mandate to operate. It’ll almost certainly have to be a coalition but at least it’ll result in a majority for either position.

I hate the fact Boris has been kicking out Tories that disagree with him (it’s very wrong and so hypocritical but that’s another conversation). But it will lead to a Tory party at the GE who are clearly “leave” - there’s no
ambiguity there. If Labour would clearly define their position it would make things ten times easier. The Libs, Greens, Brexit party, SNP all have clear positions on Brexit.

I’m fully against another referendum with leave and remain on the ballot paper. We’ve done that. If we have another referendum (and I don’t really want one at all) it should be on the terms of our departure - do we want this deal or should we leave without it? We’ve rejected remaining once, the issue now is determining the terms of leaving. Im
not scared of losing an “in/out” vote, I just think it’s a waste of time which won’t solve anything.

Finally, the EU.... they need to budge don’t they? The deal negotiated has been presented to Parliament three times and has been rejected each time. It is not an acceptable deal to Parliament therefore it needs to be revisited - that’s democracy. Above i said about “hitting a wall” - if the EU refuse to negotiate the deal then I would like us to take no deal. I would like us to do everything we can to avoid it and going to the EU with decent alternative proposals needs to happen. But if they refuse to negotiate then we certainly shouldn’t go back to remaining because they’re being c***. We voted to leave and that needs to be the number one thing that happens.

Again, apologies all.

Firstly, can I just say what a fantastic post. 1 or 2 points I disagree with (as a remainer), but apart from those points on leaving with no deal & wanting a 2nd referendum (as I would as a remainer) I agree with the entire post.

Can I also just quickly say how nice it is to read some really sensible & thoughtful views from the other side. Living abroad I mostly meet remainers and most leavers I know are complete opposites of me in which they think Trump & Farage are the only people who know what they're doing, they want to leave with no deal 'just because' and don't believe in any immigration (despite living abroad). It's really refreshing to hear some honest and thought out views, rather than the standard trolls or idiots sharing their nonsense on facebook.

The part that frustrates me is that whilst leave won the referendum, people seem to think that every MP must vote to leave. A democracy is about having a balanced point of view, ultimately 48% voted to remain and it is their duty to try and make it difficult on behalf of the others.

Personally I abstained from the referendum because I believed in both sides, both obviously have advantages (that was whilst living abroad). I believe we can be stronger without the EU, with a good 20 year struggle until we get back to where we were. However, I did not expect those 20 years to be compressed into 2 years. And I've come to the realisation that if this is what can happen in 2 years, I simply do not want to view what can happen for the next 20. And that's with a deal, without a deal just doesn't bare thinking about IMO.

People will say it's not democracy to hold another referendum, if that's the case then was it not democracy when Theresa May held her GE 2 1/2 years after the last one? It's been over 3 years since the Brexit one. People's mind's change, since the last referendum 2.25m have become old enough to vote, I believe they deserve a say in the future that they'll endure more of than probably 75% of the population. I understand this could potentially open up a can of worms of another & another & another referendum, but let's be honest this is going to be the case anyway with future elections. There are also thousands of stories of UK citizens abroad who couldn't vote due to ballot papers not arriving in time - just worth mentioning.

A GE I don't think is the way, not right now anyway. If that's the case then January 2020 isn't long enough. IMO a 2nd referendum is needed - final say leave or remain. If you say leave then you accept it may/will be by no deal. No f*cking about with 'they didn't know what they were voting for' and all that jazz.

Regarding the last point of the EU budging, they will - but only if something is put to them. I do agree with them that it's not their fault or responsibility to put something forward. They agreed a deal in good faith. We voted to leave & voted against the deal. Why should we demand they change? People talk about how in business negotiating is all about being able to walk away from a deal. Well in business it isn't about walking away from an already agreed deal and then demanding the other party changes.

We need to come up with something better, although I really don't know what better idea there can be. My gf has a job sorted in London, but we're only moving back in January/February 2020. If there is no deal and Boris forces in his new immigration system, as a Croatian/EU citizen, my gf might not be allowed entry. Meaning I won't be coming home and chances are, never will. It also means I might not be able to move to Croatia, so what then?

This is why, for me, its absolutely vital that if we do leave we must get a deal. I'm ok with leaving, but only with a deal. It's personally why I loathe people who actively want no deal Brexit, in opposition to getting a deal or in opposition for waiting a bit longer. What makes little to no effect on your life, effects millions of people.

Sorry also for the long post.

 

[Chris FGR]

Parliament can't decide on anything.

Second referendum is the only way out.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

What incentive is there? To name a few:

• Firstly we're (off the top of my head) the 3rd largest contributor to the EU budget. We' e pledged X amount until December 2020, when that runs out the EU will come begging or kick us out themselves. Make no doubt of that.
• The uncertainty of EU citizens living in the UK.
• The uncertainty of UK citizens living in the EU (like myself)
• The instability & growing unrest in Ireland
• Less tourists coming to the EU from UK, however our tourism has increased due to the £ being weak.
• Businesses leaving the UK (we've already seen some giants) and not opening another office in the EU, meaning prices increase for all
• Local/small businesses in the EU also struggling
• Why would they be happy to just keep us extending it forever? If that were allowed, we'd be making no contributions to the budget but still benefit from EU - if that was the case, every country would just do that, leading to the eventual fall of the Union.
• Finally, the also want a deal? Don't let Boris & the tabloids trick people into thinking the EU is some organisation where they're desperate to trap us here against our own will & that with this bill, they've finally got their way, conspiracy theory much?

Just to name a few off the top of my head.

We only pay into the EU budget whilst we're in the EU. We're not paying anything beyond October 31st if we leave. In which case we're back to No Deal hurting the EU, and an extension doing next to nothing. The uncertainty of EU nationals, tourism, and minor unrest in Ireland (EU caring about small businesses lmao) are issues that will no doubt concern national governments, but EU bureaucrats? Why would they budge? What indication have you seen they will alter course? They won't even remove the backstop, which is no where near good enough on it's own.

The reality is that even though the EU would prefer a new deal to No Deal, why would they need to play that hand yet? The status quo suits them better than a renegotiated deal would, as they have demonstrated for three years and continue to demonstrate even now. Why bend and make concessions when an extension not only leaves them with basically everything they want, but it also promises a general election that could put Remainers back in the driving seat? Labour have already admitted that if they get into power they're going to have another referendum that basically offers the choice of Remaining in the EU, or a new Remainer-negotiated deal with the EU that everyone knows will be Surrender Treaty 2.0 or worse.

The Remainer MPs are not trying to stop No Deal, they're trying to stop Brexit, or give us something that is Brexit in name only.

No Deal doesn't mean never deal. The negotiations would continue after we leave, only then we would actually have some leverage to get what we want.

 

[Soup Ladle]

The only thing I can say with any certainty is we should never have had this stupid referendum. It's caused so much damage politically, socially, on every level. Regardless if we remain or leave (I voted remain) the splits in the country will deepen and we will become weaker whatever the outcome will be. There is no unifying cause in this country for people - half my family are leavers, the other half remain, same with my mates. We cannot see eye to eye. The country is split by social class and political ideology (largely because of extreme propaganda peddled on both sides) that it makes it very difficult to see how we'll emerge any stronger.

I would like a second referendum now that it is clearer what both will entail and I'll still be voting the same way again and if we leave I will accept that, but will others? To get the second referendum through though, won't it need a government with a decent majority to have a clear mandate for one? I can't see Labour winning the election, neither the Tories. The Lib Dems will eat into a lot of their vote.

 

[Gassy]

No mate, under a deal we're still paying the EU - why do you think the implementation period was until December 2020? It's exactly when the money stops, it was the big argument about the divorce bill. Just to be clear, if we leave with a deal we will still be paying the EU.

Tbh, there isn't much point debating with you now. IMO you're now just following anything that Boris and his papers will tell you - by the way, do you still think the EU are trying to ban prawn cocktail crisps? You ask for reasons why they'd come back, I give them to you and you just go 'nah they don't care about that'. Well ok then, I guess that makes you right.... The person who clearly detests the EU is the person who really knows about their values..? Like when you say remain MPs are trying to stop now deal. Great, I believe Boris said that a few days ago, it must be true.

You seem to think that EU don't care about their citizens, tourism, Ireland unrest (when the IRA already claimed sending fake bombs across the UK as a warning) & small businesses that would go under. I'm not a 'EU is amazing' guy - but jess, that's beyond negative, dramatic and plain out ridiculous.

I like how your say as the EU have shown for 3 years.. The first 2 years of "negotiations" was dippy May and her bandits fighting over citizens' rights. Did you follow what she wanted? The EU said all along, leave EU citizens already there alone and we'll do the same. Nope. She didn't want that. They were trying to negotiate about the the status of citizens from the date of the referendum. The EU said fine. The May said ok actually we're going to change that to a random date, but we expect the date for UK citizens to stay the same. The EU obviously said no. This went back & forth for 2 years before she eventually gave into what was a fair trade. They always said, we won't discuss anything else until citizens' rights are confirmed.

The fact you call it the 'surrender' treaty sums it up for me mate. It's not surrender, it's not a war ffs. Grow up.

People seem to think we'll have leverage when we're out of the EU. What leverage do you have if you're in recession, currency is possibly the weakest ever, highest unemployment & economy on its knees?

What a position to be in! Watch out EU, you won't be able to handle us!

 

[Soup Ladle]

Can't see what leverage we'll have at all what with being in the Yanks' pocket and surrounded by the world's biggest economy. Britain is better off as part of the EU, we don't have the power/influence of old and to say we'll get that back is just bollocks. The only way we *might* be able to compete is if the EU crumbles and everyone is fighting for his own which is exactly how Trump/Farage sees the world. The world has enough problems as it is let alone every single fucking country having a unilateral trade war.

In Hartlepool for example, there are loads of people (not everyone mind) who think the leave vote is a class war vs the 'elite' who voted remain. What they don't see is they'll be screwed over royally under any Tory led brexit vision. Rees Mogg and BlowJob don't give a rats arse about them. The same Tories who fucked them in the 80s and before. Beggars belief. And the immigrants will just be a different colour, there'll be no decrease!