European Union Referendum

[Aber gas]

I'm for leaving the eu . I'm not sure it's now fit for purpose . I probably come at it from a very different political view than alty but I don't see how democracy is served by layers and layers of unelected technocrats . As a country we have to make our own decisions , for better or worse .

 

[.V.]

http://t.co/Z24JejUJPr

On a possible Grexit

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

"Given current geopolitical circumstances, Putin’s expansionism, the powder keg that is North Africa, the Middle East on the brink of all-out war – strategically, Europe could afford to lose practically any single country from the Union, except Greece. Greece is the geographic and military key to all those conflict zones."

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

They have a point, Greece is a very strategically important country. I realise you are an absolute moron who votes for UKIP, but worth saying.

 

[SUTSS]

Yeah not really sure what is funny about that point it is a very solid point. The exact same reasons as to why we haven't taken our forces out of Cyprus.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

They have a point, Greece is a very strategically important country. I realise you are an absolute moron who votes for UKIP, but worth saying.

I can never tell when you're trolling or not, because while you do post lots of infantile bile that would otherwise seem like bait, you seem to wind yourself up more than anyone else. There is a less flattering explanation of course, in which case I look forward to seeing you struggle to articulate why Greece is the key to our interests in all of those zones.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

You need me to explain why Greece's geography is important in the context of world politics? Do you have a map?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

No, I need you to explain why Greece is the "geographic and military key to all those conflict zones". The reason you can't, is because it isn't. The primary European player as far as North Africa goes is Italy, Turkey provides European powers with a platform to intervene in the Middle East, and the hypothetical alignment of Greece with Russia hardly makes it "key" to anything.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

No, I need you to explain why Greece is the key to our interests in all of those zones.

So you're not denying what I said then? You're the one claiming you know better, so pray tell, what is it that we don't know?

I'm guessing they're a bit too dark for your liking? I know you're not keen on people who aren't white, I've seen your rants on SSC.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

So you're not denying what I said then? You're the one claiming you know better, so pray tell, what is it that we don't know?

Um, no. The burden of proof is with the side making the unsubstantiated claim, not the side dismissing it.

I'm guessing they're a bit too dark for your liking? I know you're not keen on people who aren't white, I've seen your rants on SSC.

Cool. Link them.

 

[Alty]

Greece is strategically and politically important. Not least because the idea that it could fall under Russian influence is not completely fanciful in a way that it would be with, say, Spain. But the blogger has overplayed his hand there. He makes it sound like the key to the survival of European civilisation is Greece staying in a supranational organisation it only joined in the 1980s. In reality the Greeks would be locked out of Schengen and the big military players in the region would have to pull their fingers out where required.

 

[Alty]

On a separate point...I wonder if this issue of forcing Ministers to commit to supporting 'yes' might bite Cameron on the arse?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

MPs back bill requiring a referendum is held on the UK's membership of the EU by the end of 2017 by 544 votes to 53.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Well, that's pretty decisive. So strange... As few as 6 weeks ago, I just didn't see this referendum happening.

I assume the SNP made up most of the 53?

 

[nousername]

What's the logic behind the pro EU SNP policy?

Is it simply to annoy the Tories, or is it a mechanism for them to ask for another referendum when (they hope) the UK votes to leave?

 

[Captain Scumbag]

^
Their enthusiasm for the EU predates the formation of the current parliament, so the idea that it's political opportunism and intended to annoy the Conservatives is probably off the mark.

Their stance on the EU is rather odd – and one that only begins to make sense once you see through their phoniness and realise they're more interested in divorcing England than they are in genuine independence, the principles of national sovereignty, etc. – but it's one they've had for as long as I can remember.

Using British withdrawal from the EU as justification for a second indie referendum is a newer thing, but it can be traced back to last Autumn. They were asked, after losing in October, what circumstances would justify a re-run. Britain leaving the EU was one of the scenarios they suggested.

I dunno. They're a party ideologically hell bent on divorcing England, so they were always going to look for another opportunity. Leaving the EU would be a significant constitutional change, so it's a better excuse than most. I don't really blame them. At some point Scotland has to wake up to the fact that it can't keep electing a separatist party to run the country and expect this constitutional uncertainty to go away.

 

[The Southbank]

"Given current geopolitical circumstances, Putin’s expansionism, the powder keg that is North Africa, the Middle East on the brink of all-out war – strategically, Europe could afford to lose practically any single country from the Union, except Greece. Greece is the geographic and military key to all those conflict zones."

+1.

This is a country rocked by near bankruptcy, so how is it possible that alone it could solve all of these problems? Farcical.

 

[Alty]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33194857

It's not quite Tony Benn and Enoch Powell teaming up, but still, good to see some Eurosceptic Labour MPs coming out and making the case.

I've been listening to the Guardian Politics Weekly podcast lately and have been quite impressed by Aditya Chakrabotty. He was recently making the case that the disconnect between the PLP and ordinary Labour-inclined voters on the issues of the EU and immigration are probably the party's biggest problems aside from lack of trust on the economy post-2008.

What'll be interesting when the time comes is how much time 'No' spend campaigning on sovereignty, judicial independence, economic drain, immigration, trade freedom etc etc. I think a campaign focused predominantly on immigration is going to fail. One that actually explains the bonkers way in which the Parliament, Commission and Council interact, that talks about judicial creep, that sheds light on the disparity between the money we put in versus what we get out, that highlights CAP/Common Fisheries/Ever Closer Union/Common Foreign and Security Policy and debunks the myth that we control our borders despite the Free Movement of People principle....that will stand a chance.

Big priority first up though...knock that "3 million jobs" lie out of the park very early doors.

I note also that the Government are brazenly trying to rig the vote by doing away with a pre-referendum purdah period and failing to enforce spending limits (cue a shitload of corporate money flowing in to support 'Yes').

 

[Aber gas]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33194857

It's not quite Tony Benn and Enoch Powell teaming up, but still, good to see some Eurosceptic Labour MPs coming out and making the case.

I've been listening to the Guardian Politics Weekly podcast lately and have been quite impressed by Aditya Chakrabotty. He was recently making the case that the disconnect between the PLP and ordinary Labour-inclined voters on the issues of the EU and immigration are probably the party's biggest problems aside from lack of trust on the economy post-2008.

What'll be interesting when the time comes is how much time 'No' spend campaigning on sovereignty, judicial independence, economic drain, immigration, trade freedom etc etc. I think a campaign focused predominantly on immigration is going to fail. One that actually explains the bonkers way in which the Parliament, Commission and Council interact, that talks about judicial creep, that sheds light on the disparity between the money we put in versus what we get out, that highlights CAP/Common Fisheries/Ever Closer Union/Common Foreign and Security Policy and debunks the myth that we control our borders despite the Free Movement of People principle....that will stand a chance.

Big priority first up though...knock that "3 million jobs" lie out of the park very early doors.

I note also that the Government are brazenly trying to rig the vote by doing away with a pre-referendum purdah period and failing to enforce spending limits (cue a shitload of corporate money flowing in to support 'Yes').

The failure to enforce current spending limits could come back to bite the yes campaign on the arse , could be seen as trying to bully the electorate . I too hope the campaign doesn't focus on immigration but points out the overreaching federalism which is affecting us constitutionly , judicially , politically and economically. The eu and especially the commission is now a bloated , outdated dinosaur which goes way beyond its original purpose and remit .

 

[mnb089mnb]

What'll be interesting when the time comes is how much time 'No' spend campaigning on sovereignty, judicial independence, economic drain, immigration, trade freedom etc etc. I think a campaign focused predominantly on immigration is going to fail. One that actually explains the bonkers way in which the Parliament, Commission and Council interact, that talks about judicial creep, that sheds light on the disparity between the money we put in versus what we get out, that highlights CAP/Common Fisheries/Ever Closer Union/Common Foreign and Security Policy and debunks the myth that we control our borders despite the Free Movement of People principle....that will stand a chance.

Do the general electorate care about all of those subjects enough to go down to the polling station and put a X in the Leave Europe box though?

 

[Aber gas]

Do the general electorate care about all of those subjects enough to go down to the polling station and put a X in the Leave Europe box though?

I hope so , the eu effects almost every facet of british political and economic life either directly or indirectly. Whether people are in or out it's important that they get a say .

 

[Alty]

Do the general electorate care about all of those subjects enough to go down to the polling station and put a X in the Leave Europe box though?

Individually perhaps not. But if you can point to 6 or 7 obviously undesirable aspects of continued EU Membership you'll be more likely to sway people who could go either way than if you just obsess over the issue of immigration (IMO).

 

[mnb089mnb]

Individually perhaps not. But if you can point to 6 or 7 obviously undesirable aspects of continued EU Membership you'll be more likely to sway people who could go either way than if you just obsess over the issue of immigration (IMO).

I hope so. But I'm not optimistic about this 'debate'. It's going to be horrible, isn't it?

 

[Alty]

I hope so. But I'm not optimistic about this 'debate'. It's going to be horrible, isn't it?

My fear is that it'll be one side shouting about economic oblivion and another going on about mass immigration.

Perhaps naively I think it still might turn out better than that. But only time will tell.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

My concern is that even if we do leave the EU, we're lead by parties that like the EU, which means we'll end up with the sort of relationship Switzerland and Norway have where we still have uncontrolled immigration, still have to pay into the EU coffers and abide by most of the rules, we just miss out on a few regulations here and there.

 

[Aber gas]

My concern is that even if we do leave the EU, we're lead by parties that like the EU, which means we'll end up with the sort of relationship Switzerland and Norway have where we still have uncontrolled immigration, still have to pay into the EU coffers and abide by most of the rules, we just miss out on a few regulations here and there.

this could very well happen but even so opting out of the eu would at least give us a buffer against future encroachments such as centralised taxation and European federal law .

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I suppose on the other hand if dropping our free movement commitment meant keeping us inside the free market, would Germany & co. really care?

 

[SUTSS]

Germany doing their best to bring the whole thing down before this referendum.

 

[Alty]

I found this interesting: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ws-fire-position-future-britain-eu-membership

 

[Arkan]

Still unsure how to vote on this one. My gut instinct is to vote to leave and I doubt that will change. I'm just sick of the scaremongering on both sides. It's interesting as well to see people like Owen Jones and George Galloway advocating withdrawal. If the leave campaign is going to win then it'll need votes from all sides not just the Eurosceptic right.