European Union Referendum

[Ebeneezer Goode]

 

[mowgli]

Still unsure how to vote on this one. My gut instinct is to vote to leave and I doubt that will change. I'm just sick of the scaremongering on both sides. It's interesting as well to see people like Owen Jones and George Galloway advocating withdrawal. If the leave campaign is going to win then it'll need votes from all sides not just the Eurosceptic right.

Owen Jones does The Labour Party no favours when interviewed on tv,he never lets anyone else start a conversation without butting in before listening to views that don't match his own. As for my vote it will be to leave,our parliament and courts should dictate our laws not a faceless group of judges from The EU. Plus we can govern our borders without being told how many immigrants we should be forced to take in,we are a small island that can't sustain more benefits for those who move here as most can't speak English so can't find work for obvious reasons. Where will they live? By jumping the housing list for social housing while our own people can't get a council house.Schools are overcrowded and The NHS is struggling to cope. No doubt i will be accused of racism and of having a little England mentality which would be funny as i have voted Labour since 1978 but yeah bring it on!

 

[mnb089mnb]

Most immigrants can't speak English? Not sure that's right is it?

Hope we get the right information when making a choice about this. I doubt we will. It'll be a campaign of scare tactics like we saw in the Scots independence referendum.

 

[.V.]

Owen Jones does The Labour Party no favours when interviewed on tv,he never lets anyone else start a conversation without butting in before listening to views that don't match his own. As for my vote it will be to leave,our parliament and courts should dictate our laws not a faceless group of judges from The EU. Plus we can govern our borders without being told how many immigrants we should be forced to take in,we are a small island that can't sustain more benefits for those who move here as most can't speak English so can't find work for obvious reasons. Where will they live? By jumping the housing list for social housing while our own people can't get a council house.Schools are overcrowded and The NHS is struggling to cope. No doubt i will be accused of racism and of having a little England mentality which would be funny as i have voted Labour since 1978 but yeah bring it on!

Any EEA national coming to Britain is unable to claim JSA, HB etc until they've lived here for 3 months or are genuinely working.

So it's immigrants fault there's not enough social housing, that schools are over crowded and the NHS is struggling? Nothing to do with a govt who is choking off funding for public services, and doing nothing to increase the social housing stock?

Of course an increase in population will put more pressure on public services, but the finger you're pointing needs to be pointed at a group of people more deserving of it.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

It's the same group. It's not the immigrants who're setting immigration policy.

 

[Alty]

It'll be interesting to see how the leave campaigns interact. One of the criticisms of the Better Together campaign is that too many disparate groups found themselves lumped together and so it was difficult to take the message seriously. Which is fine. But leave looks to be in danger of running into the opposite problem, i.e. all the different groups, whose ultimate ambition is the same, wasting time and energy criticising each other when they should be making the case for British independence.

 

[Tilbury]

Owen Jones does The Labour Party no favours when interviewed on tv,he never lets anyone else start a conversation without butting in before listening to views that don't match his own. As for my vote it will be to leave,our parliament and courts should dictate our laws not a faceless group of judges from The EU. Plus we can govern our borders without being told how many immigrants we should be forced to take in,we are a small island that can't sustain more benefits for those who move here as most can't speak English so can't find work for obvious reasons. Where will they live? By jumping the housing list for social housing while our own people can't get a council house.Schools are overcrowded and The NHS is struggling to cope. No doubt i will be accused of racism and of having a little England mentality which would be funny as i have voted Labour since 1978 but yeah bring it on!
Source: Daily Mail

 

[Alty]

I don't agree with everything Jones says but I don't find him a particularly irritating or rude character, I have to say.

I thought Chavs was a really good book. Definitely agree with the central premise that it's become wholly acceptable not just for the right, but also for sections of the left, to sneer at working class people.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Owen has no pubes, can be skin-crawlingly sententious and holds a variety of opinions that are profoundly stupid, but he does at least give the impression of being independent-minded.

My (admittedly jaundiced) theory is that most lefty-progressive champions of the EU know absolute dick about it. They don't understand how the wretched thing works. They don't know its history (which is why they persist with the ludicrously naive idea that we can reform it from within). They haven't given the slightest thought to the likely medium-to-long term implications for British politics if we remain members.

They say they're pro-EU because their chief (perhaps only) concern is positioning themselves on the opposite side to the Nigel Farages and Melanie Phillips of this world. People they don't like are against X; ergo, X must be a good thing. That's the level of narcissism and dipshit logic we're dealing with.

To give Owen his due, he isn't that lazy. Or stupid.

 

[Alty]

Owen has no pubes, can be skin-crawlingly sententious and holds a variety of opinions that are profoundly stupid, but he does at least give the impression of being independent-minded.

My (admittedly jaundiced) theory is that most lefty-progressive champions of the EU know absolute dick about it. They don't understand how the wretched thing works. They don't know its history (which is why they persist with the ludicrously naive idea that we can reform it from within). They haven't given the slightest thought to the likely medium-to-long term implications for British politics if we remain members.

They say they're pro-EU because their chief (perhaps only) concern is positioning themselves on the opposite side to the Nigel Farages and Melanie Phillips of this world. People they don't like are against X; ergo, X must be a good thing. That's the level of narcissism and dipshit logic we're dealing with.

To give Owen his due, he isn't that lazy. Or stupid.

Am I a One Nation Tory now Scummers? Give it to me straight. I consider myself left-wing but I dislike just about everyone who claims to be on my side. I like listening to Jacob Rees-Mogg and reading Peter Oborne. What the fuck happened? I'm not even 30 yet.

 

[Tilbury]

They say they're pro-EU because their chief (perhaps only) concern is positioning themselves on the opposite side to the Nigel Farages and Melanie Phillips of this world. People they don't like are against X; ergo, X must be a good thing. That's the level of narcissism and dipshit logic we're dealing with.

And the likes of Cameron and Osborne are supporting the stay campaign. I doubt many people are picking sides because of who is backing who.

 

[Aber gas]

I'm voting out for reasons I've gone into earlier in the thread. I'm not going to lie, some of the individuals and groups supporting the out campaign are fucking terrible and it makes me feel dirty agreeing with them even on one issue. Needs must though I suppose.

 

[mowgli]

I'm voting out for reasons I've gone into earlier in the thread. I'm not going to lie, some of the individuals and groups supporting the out campaign are fucking terrible and it makes me feel dirty agreeing with them even on one issue. Needs must though I suppose.

I am no Tory but David Davies is my choice to lead the out campaign,if he won't do it then Liam Fox would be my second choice.Yes both are Tories but they still talk most sense about leaving The EU.

 

[Alty]

Should have tried to get a figure from the left leading the way. Gisela Stuart is both Labour and German. Perfect person to detoxify the Eurosceptic brand.

 

[nousername]

They don't know its history (which is why they persist with the ludicrously naive idea that we can reform it from within). They haven't given the slightest thought to the likely medium-to-long term implications for British politics if we remain members.

Why do you consider it ludicrously naïve to think that it can be reformed? (I happen to agree with you, just curious to hear your angle on it, and anyone else's for that matter...)

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Owen has no pubes, can be skin-crawlingly sententious and holds a variety of opinions that are profoundly stupid, but he does at least give the impression of being independent-minded.

My (admittedly jaundiced) theory is that most lefty-progressive champions of the EU know absolute dick about it. They don't understand how the wretched thing works. They don't know its history (which is why they persist with the ludicrously naive idea that we can reform it from within). They haven't given the slightest thought to the likely medium-to-long term implications for British politics if we remain members.

They say they're pro-EU because their chief (perhaps only) concern is positioning themselves on the opposite side to the Nigel Farages and Melanie Phillips of this world. People they don't like are against X; ergo, X must be a good thing. That's the level of narcissism and dipshit logic we're dealing with.

To give Owen his due, he isn't that lazy. Or stupid.

Wow, what a spectacularly condescending post.

 

[silkyman]

Most immigrants can't speak English? Not sure that's right is it?

Hope we get the right information when making a choice about this. I doubt we will. It'll be a campaign of scare tactics like we saw in the Scots independence referendum.

We'll get what the handful of billionaires who own the newspaper's want us to get.

http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/who-will-speak-for-england.html?m=1

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Am I a One Nation Tory now Scummers? Give it to me straight. I consider myself left-wing but I dislike just about everyone who claims to be on my side. I like listening to Jacob Rees-Mogg and reading Peter Oborne.

People who don't have a soft spot for the Mogg very likely have something wrong with them. And Oborne is about as non-tribal as conservative political commentators come. Little can be read into you liking these people, and I'm not sure what One Nation Tory means now anyway.

And the likes of Cameron and Osborne are supporting the stay campaign. I doubt many people are picking sides because of who is backing who.

Aye, but … when I mentioned lefty-progressive champions of the EU who seem to know sweet FA about it, the Prime Minister and Chancellor weren't exactly who I had in mind.

Why do you consider it ludicrously naïve to think that it can be reformed?

Every project has an objective. The objective of the 'Europe' project is to create a federalised Europe. That's been the objective from the start and the one it's never wavered from. Every reform has been in one direction, i.e. towards greater political, economic and legal union. And at the risk of condescending the more delicate flowers among us, I think the ambition underpinning the whole thing – the EU's raison d'être, let's say – should be pretty fucking obvious by now.

I see no reason for thinking the objective will change; therefore, I see our position as roughly analogous to being on a train, knowing the intended destination, approaching a stop (the referendum) and having to choose whether to (a) stay on board, or (b) get off. No doubt an informed and sensible case can be made for (a), but IMO such a case has to presuppose the intended destination and argue that it's desirable or in our best interests. We know – or at least ought to know – where the EU is headed. The salient question is whether we want to go there.

Unfortunately, a fair chunk of the debate in Britain is taken up by folk who persist with the idea that a radically different EU is on offer. You know? "It's not perfect, but we have to be in it to change it", and similar guff. To return to my imperfect analogy, this is rather like being on the train, not liking the intended destination and believing the train's course can altered (reversed, even!) by staying on board and ceaselessly moaning to the other passengers. In short, it's nonsense on stilts.

To give Mr Cameron his due, I think he knows perfectly well it's nonsense on stilts. Unfortunately, a combination of ego (not wishing to appear impotent) and political expediency (not wishing to alienate 'Eurosceptic' conservatives) has persuaded him that it's necessary to pretend otherwise.

I do, however, think a large number of the "stay in to reform it" camp come out with the utter bilge they do because they honestly believe it. And such a viewpoint, IMO, is ludicrously naive and betrays a profound ignorance of the institution they're commenting on. They're arguing for an approach that has been tried for decades and which has demonstrably failed. They're arguing for things for which there is no historical precedent.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Genuine floating voter. Probably going to against which group I despise the most, rather than any belief in either argument, which is really quite difficult.

 

[Arkan]

Galloway and Farage.

 

[SUTSS]

What an odious duo.

 

[mowgli]

I couldn't bring myself to watch those 2 arseholes!

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

There are so many compelling arguments from all sides of the political spectrum that the establishment are going to have to pull out some serious scare stories late on to win this thing I feel, either that or the out campaign will be so fractious that it shoots itself in the foot, which is very possible.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Seems a rather peculiar claim given that most polls place "Remain" in the lead. I imagine both camps feel they have "so many compelling arguments", although I must confess that I've yet to hear many of them myself. Think it's a complete given that both sides will be employing scaremongering tactics - something for the electorate to look forward to!

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I suspect the time has come for "scaremongering" to be expunged from our political lexicon and added to the list of once-useful words (also see "liberal", "fascist", "fairness", "tolerance", etc.) that overuse and shitty debating have rendered largely meaningless, at least in a political context.

 

[Alty]

Seems a rather peculiar claim given that most polls place "Remain" in the lead. I imagine both camps feel they have "so many compelling arguments", although I must confess that I've yet to hear many of them myself. Think it's a complete given that both sides will be employing scaremongering tactics - something for the electorate to look forward to!

Heard any scaremongering from the 'Out' camp yet? Genuine question. What I've heard thus far has been more about appealing to people's patriotism (not in the sense of hating anyone else, but of rediscovering our national self-confidence), Atlanticism, re-engaging with the Commonwealth, a global future, more freedom for business, regaining control of our borders etc etc. You might think some of this is pie in the sky/unachievable, naive or in some cases just undesirable. But I don't think any of it can be labelled scaremongering.

The 'In' campaign have focused on one rather nebulous concept, namely that of "being part of a strong bloc" in the face of enemies. Quite what EU membership has to do with feeling safe from ISIS and/or expansionist Russia I don't know, but hey. Arguably that's scaremongering because it implies we'd be in peril if we were to leave the EU, but perhaps I'm being a little unkind.

There have been the stupid comments about Calais 2.0 in Kent, which frankly was blatant scaremongering.

And there's been the implication that trade with Europe would reduce drastically and 3 million jobs could go post-Brexit. Which is also scaremongering.

Out of interest, as you're one of very few loyal Lib Dems I actually respect, what are your reasons for wanting the UK to remain in the EU? It's often said that people don't understand the EU, which is why they don't like it. In all honesty I think it's precisely the opposite. I was pro-EU until I actually learned a bit about the thing. At which point I got increasingly alarmed. If people were to learn how the whole thing actually works rather than being faced with an argument between the demand for straight bananas vs the random EU-funded art project in their home town, I struggle to see why they'd remain in favour of membership.

 

[SUTSS]

If this referendum was 18 months ago I would've voted to stay without even thinking about it. My faith in the EU has been rocked quite severely over the past 18 months. I will still be voting to stay but it will be quite reluctantly.

 

[Alty]

If this referendum was 18 months ago I would've voted to stay without even thinking about it. My faith in the EU has been rocked quite severely over the past 18 months. I will still be voting to stay but it will be quite reluctantly.

Why voting to stay? Would you vote to join if we had the option now?

 

[SUTSS]

Why voting to stay? Would you vote to join if we had the option now?

I don't think the economy would be that much difference in the long term. It would probably contract in the short term but would readjust so it's not to do with that and I think there is a lot of rubbish being spoken on both sides about the economy and trade.

I think the main reason is that the EU is a powerful voice in the world and I want the UK to be a player on the world stage and I think the days of us being able to do that on our own are long gone. This is one of the reasons my faith in the EU has faltered though as we are facing a major humanitarian crisis which should be what working together helps us to deal with but the EU is failing miserably.

I also think that the EU helps maintain stability in Europe which can only be a good thing.

There is also a fear about what direction the UK would go if we left. I think it is possible to have a successful country outside the EU which is better for the average person than the country inside. I don't have any trust that that is the direction that the Leave campaign want this to go and I think these people will be in senior positions after the referendum. I think this is a big problem for the Leave campaign. Whilst I don't see it as far as this but if the Leave vote becomes a UKIP vote then the Leave campaign is over. I think it was yourself who mentioned earlier in the thread that Leave should've gone for a Labour voice and I think that would've been better for them.

 

[Alty]

I don't think the economy would be that much difference in the long term. It would probably contract in the short term but would readjust so it's not to do with that and I think there is a lot of rubbish being spoken on both sides about the economy and trade.

I think the main reason is that the EU is a powerful voice in the world and I want the UK to be a player on the world stage and I think the days of us being able to do that on our own are long gone. This is one of the reasons my faith in the EU has faltered though as we are facing a major humanitarian crisis which should be what working together helps us to deal with but the EU is failing miserably.

I also think that the EU helps maintain stability in Europe which can only be a good thing.

There is also a fear about what direction the UK would go if we left. I think it is possible to have a successful country outside the EU which is better for the average person than the country inside. I don't have any trust that that is the direction that the Leave campaign want this to go and I think these people will be in senior positions after the referendum. I think this is a big problem for the Leave campaign. Whilst I don't see it as far as this but if the Leave vote becomes a UKIP vote then the Leave campaign is over. I think it was yourself who mentioned earlier in the thread that Leave should've gone for a Labour voice and I think that would've been better for them.

I think the EU probably is a second tier power behind the US and China, but the question is whether you believe the UK's (and indeed the wider world's) interests are better represented by policies concocted via trilogue involving 28 countries with divergent perspectives, articulated by an unelected EU Commissioner, or whether it might be better for us to act independently.

I fully accept that the UK can no longer compel countries to do things. But we have all sorts of historical relationships to call on and can cooperate with a range of countries to further our aims. Even now as members of the EU, we do far more work on counter-terrorism and criminal record sharing with the 'Five Eyes' than with our EU partners. There's no reason to sacrifice sovereignty in order to get things done.

Regarding stability in Europe...I think that may have been true years ago when the likes of Greece, Portugal and Spain were emerging from dictatorship. But I don't believe it's true now. In fact, if you look at Greece I think the Troika's actions have made Grece a much less stable country. And a fucking miserable place for its citizens too.