European Union Referendum

[Alty]

I think the biggest myth of all is that being inside the EU somehow gives us added "clout" in trade deals. These are deals that we have next to no influence over, to the point that British representatives are asked to leave the room when they're actually being hashed out. Any advantage we get is diminished by the fact that said deal has to be tailored to work for an entire continent of varied economies instead of just our own. It's probably not a coincidence that these noises only seem to come EU countries that don't want us to go, and Americans that want us in there as their proxy.

Key example being the torturously slow free trade negotiations with Japan. We could have negotiated a deal ourselves far far quicker.

 

[SUTSS]

I think Gove is a good one to lose really. He's hardly a popular presence (although is currently doing well undoing the incompetence of Grayling). I am surprised that May has gone for remain, always had her pegged as a eurosceptic.

Boris is the big get really and I think he will probably go for remain. I have been reading his book on the Roman Empire recently which certainly gives the impression that he's quite pro-European (although with some caveats.) Although at the end of the day they are all politicians and there will be some that will campaign for a side they don't really believe in for their own career aims and if Boris thinks that he can further his goal of becoming PM by joining leave then I have no doubt that he will.

If the leave campaign have to rely too heavily on Farage and Galloway then I can't see them gaining traction with undecided voters.

 

[mowgli]

The leave campaign need to drop Farage now as he's such a divisive figure. I am all for leaving an d would love to see Boris finally come onto the leave camp as it's what he really wants but it seems he's more interested in becoming PM rather than what's best for the British people.

 

[mente captus]

Not really, given that it's demonstrably true, while our union has lasted 300 years. It also shouldn't be a surprise that Scottish people and English people, for example, have a bit more in common than Greeks and Danes. There's never going to be any possibility of stability so long as "a solution that suits everyone" is really just a euphemism for a solution that suits France and Germany.

i hear all the time which advantages Germany have, could someone please name a few?

Key example being the torturously slow free trade negotiations with Japan. We could have negotiated a deal ourselves far far quicker.

i think your automotive industry would deny

 

[mowgli]

Theresa May is another who has put her wish to be PM before what is best for the country,anyone who has followed debates and reports on the news knows she wanted out. And now Javid has changed his mind and is supporting the shitty deal Cameron came back with. Makes me wonder how many more will vote for something they don't believe in just to get the crumbs of Cameron's table.

 

[Veggie Legs]

We have a date: 23rd June.

 

[SUTSS]

Out campaign not done very well with cabinet members. Gove, Duncan Smith and Grayling unlikely to win many people round. Be interesting to see if any big name Labourites go for out, you suspect some of them want to but may see keeping the party together a greater priority.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

Out campaign not done very well with cabinet members. Gove, Duncan Smith and Grayling unlikely to win many people round. Be interesting to see if any big name Labourites go for out, you suspect some of them want to but may see keeping the party together a greater priority.

Gisela Stuart and Kate Hoey are the only 2 Labour MP's I know of who are outers.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

It's probably a good thing that we only have to put up with four months of dishonest and/or offensively stupid debate before the vote occurs. There was about 18 months of it leading up to the independence referendum in Scotland. God, that was awful.

We'll vote to stay in. We shouldn't. But I think we will. And if so, the question will (probably) be settled for another few decades. Ho hum.

@ Hooped Wizard – Frank Field and Graham Stringer will almost certainly campaign to leave.

 

[SUTSS]

It's probably a good thing that we only have to put up with four months of dishonest and/or offensively stupid debate before the vote occurs. There was about 18 months of it leading up to the independence referendum in Scotland. God, that was awful.

We'll vote to stay in. We shouldn't. But I think we will. And if so, the question will (probably) be settled for another few decades. Ho hum.

@ Hooped Wizard – Frank Field and Graham Stringer will almost certainly campaign to leave.

Will that finish it though? From the outside it looks like the debate kept going in Scotland and the divisions just became more entrenched.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Will that finish it though? From the outside it looks like the debate kept going in Scotland and the divisions just became more entrenched.

The debate will continue among those who care until the wretched thing collapses (as it inevitably will at some point). My concern is whether it remains an issue of relevance to the general public, i.e. something that remains topical, under close media scrutiny, near the top of the political agenda, etc.

There are various reasons why Scottish politics is still obsessed with the independence question, but the main reason is simple: Scotland is still governed by a separatist party. If UKIP were governing the UK, we'd have every reason for thinking a decisive "stay in" vote in June wouldn't settle the issue. But they're not.

The majority of UK MPs (and this includes a great deal of the Tory party) would rather not talk about Europe. The public voting to stay in gives them a strong excuse for not doing so. The people have spoken. It's time to look forward, think about other things, focus on new challenges. And so on.

 

[SUTSS]

The debate will continue among those who care until the wretched thing collapses (as it inevitably will at some point). My concern is whether it remains an issue of relevance to the general public, i.e. something that remains topical, under close media scrutiny, near the top of the political agenda, etc.

There are various reasons why Scottish politics is still obsessed with the independence question, but the main reason is simple: Scotland is still governed by a separatist party. If UKIP were governing the UK, we'd have every reason for thinking a decisive "stay in" vote in June wouldn't settle the issue. But they're not.

The majority of UK MPs (and this includes a great deal of the Tory party) would rather not talk about Europe. The public voting to stay in gives them a strong excuse for not doing so. The people have spoken. It's time to look forward, think about other things, focus on new challenges. And so on.

That makes sense.

I don't know how the Americans deal with their insanely long election campaign. I'm already bored of hearing the news about it where they don't really say anything and just talk to people in the street.

 

[Conker]

I think the fact the 'deal' has nothing to do with stopping the flow of migrants actually gives the leave campaign a fighting chance.

 

[Alty]

Really good interview with Cameron by Marr this morning. In recent times I've thought Marr has been a bit jokey in a lot of his interviews, with people from all parties. But today was a reminder of how good he can be when on form. He had Cameron wriggling.

That Javid piece this morning is absolutely incredible. We shouldn't have joined the EU and it's a deeply flawed organisation...but we should reluctantly acquiesce to the PM's call to stay in!? Is this the best the 'stay' campaign can do??

BoJo is loving the "will he? Won't he?" this morning I wouldn't be shocked if he changed his mind again and went for 'stay'. Political calculation and all that.

 

[.V.]

IDS ignoring the fact that the 7/7 terrorists and the animals that killed Lee Rigby, were all British.

 

[Alty]

IDS ignoring the fact that the 7/7 terrorists and the animals that killed Lee Rigby, were all British.

How so?

 

[.V.]

How so?

Staying in EU makes UK more vulnerable to Paris-style attacks, cabinet minister Iain Duncan Smith tells BBC bbc.in/1XFrt6A

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Let's be honest, the only reason your own country and the other big players in the EU don't moan is because they haven't got the bollocks to. To be honest, no one seems to get a great deal out of the union. Napoleon and Hitler wanted a closer Europe too, I believe? The state of Germania seems to be coming true regardless though, as, let's face it, all of Europe bar us (as usual) will tow the line with Germany, if we leave, you'll have free reign to finally rule Europe. Have fun.

this is a really bad post. spend a few minutes reflecting on it

 

[Tilbury]

IDS ignoring the fact that the 7/7 terrorists and the animals that killed Lee Rigby, were all British.

Exactly my thoughts. Fear mongering that some in here have said the out campaign don't partake in.

 

[George Reilly's Hairpiece]

Where of course the PM has said nothing about being more vulnerable to terrorism should we leave the EU.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Staying in EU makes UK more vulnerable to Paris-style attacks, cabinet minister Iain Duncan Smith tells BBC bbc.in/1XFrt6A

Looks suspiciously like the kind of "scaremongering" (not sure whether we're retiring this word or not) tactics that we were assured the leave camp wouldn't be employing in their campaigning!

 

[Tilbury]

Where of course the PM has said nothing about being more vulnerable to terrorism should we leave the EU.

He has.

 

[George Reilly's Hairpiece]

He has.

Of course he has. Just find it amusing how it's scaremongering when it's being said by people that have opposing views but something very different when said by those in the same camp.

 

[Tilbury]

Of course he has. Just find it amusing how it's scaremongering when it's being said by people that have opposing views but something very different when said by those in the same camp.

Where has that been said please?

 

[George Reilly's Hairpiece]

Google David Cameron, Terrorism and EU if you want some examples. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Personally I don't see it as scaremongering either way, more part of a debate that a lot of people would see as one of the fundamental issues around our membership of the EU

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

u can't posit something with no evidence, and then tell the opposing viewpoint to find the evidence that contradicts their views ahaha. that's like debating 101

 

[Tilbury]

I thought he was talking about this thread only, haven't been following it closely so didn't know if people actually had on here. Both campaigns are using peoples irrationally fear of terrorism as a political tool and it's dirty.

 

[Aber gas]

It's not a good idea for certain members of the leave campaign to start banging on about immigration in regards to the referendum. If the leave campaign is going to work it's going to need it's leftist element. I'm not going to campaign on the same platform as bigoted nutbags like ids and Farage. Someone needs to have a word and tell them to shssh their noise for a bit.

 

[nousername]

Honest question, why is it a circus? Only really read BBC articles but seemed fairly 'ok' from them.

I think I wrote that in a bad mood when I heard on the Beeb that Greece was using the negotiations to get concessions on its bailout package...

What I've seen in the last few days is just further evidence of the dysfunctional nature of the organisation. From the outside at least - living in Asia - it just appears that the EU is locked in a never-ending cycle of Crunch Talks, invariably seeking last-minute-half-arsed-deals to crisises that they had a hand in creating.

Maybe I'm being sucked into the media sensationalism, but I'm beginning to wander why we voluntarily want to be part of this Union.

Anyway, I'm not fantastically well informed on the matter, so it's been interesting reading this thread. My gut feeling is we'll vote to leave, basically as it'll be far easier to sell the negatives of the EU rather than the positives aspects, and subsequently sway the floaters towards an exit.

 

[blade1889]

It's not a good idea for certain members of the leave campaign to start banging on about immigration in regards to the referendum. If the leave campaign is going to work it's going to need it's leftist element. I'm not going to campaign on the same platform as bigoted nutbags like ids and Farage. Someone needs to have a word and tell them to shssh their noise for a bit.

Whilst I vehemently dislike Farage I can see their worth to the campaign even if I disagree with their politics. UKIP gained plenty of support, far more than the SNP, Greens and I'm pretty sure far more than the Lib Dems (without looking it up) in the GE and Farage can comfortably point to that as reason why he should be a key spokesperson for the leave campaign. Hes a charismatic person that clearly people do get behind, I think of friends and relatives and many of them are more likely to be swayed by the UKIP anti-immigration route than the left socialist. If they sit down and work together on a double pronged attack then it could work well for them, but pushing forward one side over the other will neglect one clear source of where votes could come from.