European Union Referendum

[Alty]

Our sympathies (and friends over there) hail from the descendants of those who ran off a few years earlier, with equal urgency, when it looked like it might.

Easy to forget the diverse origins of South Americans. I think a lot of people are unaware that there's a long history of migration by Jews, Irish, Japanese and all sorts as well as the Spanish, Portuguese and Italians.

 

[Ciderhead]

Haven't completely scoured the thread so this may have been posted already, but this was shared on my fb feed and found it very useful, particularly in the environment of misleading information and misrepresentation of statistics that has been this referendum debate.

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7213#fullreport

Research paper from the House of Commons Library. Gives a basic overview of each area: what being in the EU means, how we'd be affected by leaving, and pros and cons.

 

[Habbinalan]

Haven't completely scoured the thread so this may have been posted already, but this was shared on my fb feed and found it very useful, particularly in the environment of misleading information and misrepresentation of statistics that has been this referendum debate.

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7213#fullreport

Research paper from the House of Commons Library. Gives a basic overview of each area: what being in the EU means, how we'd be affected by leaving, and pros and cons.

What do you think that Section 12 covered in the first draft of this Briefing?

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

Easy to forget the diverse origins of South Americans. I think a lot of people are unaware that there's a long history of migration by Jews, Irish, Japanese and all sorts as well as the Spanish, Portuguese and Italians.

Well thank Christ you're here to enlighten us.

 

[Ciderhead]

Haven't completely scoured the thread so this may have been posted already, but this was shared on my fb feed and found it very useful, particularly in the environment of misleading information and misrepresentation of statistics that has been this referendum debate.

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7213#fullreport

Research paper from the House of Commons Library. Gives a basic overview of each area: what being in the EU means, how we'd be affected by leaving, and pros and cons.

Just noticed you have to scroll up for the overview in the link, I didn't fancy the full 100+ pages myself!

 

[Ciderhead]

What do you think that Section 12 covered in the first draft of this Briefing?

Huh, interesting. Well spotted.

Maybe that's the bit about the federal superstate plans..

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Vote leave considering legal action as the vote registration deadline has been extended. So much for wanting more 'democracy' eh? Don't sound very confident either, by most accounts Farage was a shambles last night, obviously they're worried.

 

[Conker]

What accounts?

 

[Alty]

Well thank Christ you're here to enlighten us.

No need to throw a hissy fit just because you accused some poor Jewish refugees of being Nazis.

 

[Alty]

Vote leave considering legal action as the vote registration deadline has been extended. So much for wanting more 'democracy' eh? Don't sound very confident either, by most accounts Farage was a shambles last night, obviously they're worried.

Obviously as many eligible voters as possible should take part, but I do wonder why these idiots left it so late. There's been so much stuff about voter registration in the press over the past year or more.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Yeah. I'm really quite a disorganised person and frequently leave things to the eleventh hour but even I find it a bit difficult to fathom why you'd leave it so late to register to vote. I can appreciate that people lead busy lives and may not be that politically engaged but it's still rather puzzling (can anyone interested in visiting a polling station on June 23rd really have failed to notice that there was a referendum looming?) Can't see any problem with the extension though - giving more eligible voters the opportunity to cast their ballot is obviously healthy for democracy.

 

[silkyman]

People procrastinate. It's a fact of life.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

I don't understand why you have to pro-actively register, should it not be automatic (I believe it is in other countries). Aside from informing the local council of when you move, you should be automatically down to vote.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

Is there any evidence to suggest late registrations are from people more likely to vote 'remain'? I can't see why 'Leavers' would be annoyed by it. The more people who vote the better.

I do agree that it's daft so many left it so late but what can you do? You say the deadline is 'x', people expect to do it right up to 'x'.

 

[SUTSS]

Most would've been registered and just had a late panic.

 

[Habbinalan]

No need to throw a hissy fit just because you accused some poor Jewish refugees of being Nazis.

I detected more tired and pompous sarcasm than any hint of hissiness - a reaction with which I can ocasionally sympathise, although I try to keep it to myself.

"Our sympathies (and friends over there) hail from the descendants of those who ran off a few years earlier, with equal urgency, when it looked like it might."

sympathies.

• feelings or impulses of compassion.
• feelings of favor, support, or loyalty: It's hard to tell where your sympathies lie.
  
• favorable or approving accord; favor or approval: He viewed the plan with sympathy and publicly backed it.
• agreement, consonance, or accord.

 

[Gashead]

Is there any evidence to suggest late registrations are from people more likely to vote 'remain'? I can't see why 'Leavers' would be annoyed by it. The more people who vote the better.

I do agree that it's daft so many left it so late but what can you do? You say the deadline is 'x', people expect to do it right up to 'x'.

Even if the Leave lot feel that more late registrations will be from Remainers, quite why they're getting upset about it in public I have no idea.

Suggests 1) they can't convince these newbies to change their vote, 2) they dislike democracy.

One thing both sides have been terrible at is preaching to the unconverted. I think Labour were in Donny the other week (have they gone elsewhere?) and I'm not even sure the PM has been outside of London. Areas of Wales for example could be targeted by Remain, yet I don't see much campaigning going on.

Likewise, Leave should be targeting the youngsters, because a lot of them are more undecided than the politicians and pollsters make them out to be.

 

[pontoonlew]

Personally I'm sick of hearing so much political jargon. I'm sure there's a large proportion of 'outers' that are voting out based on immigration and there's some of them (I'm basing this purely on stuff I've seen shared by Facebook friends etc) that aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the box.

David Cameron talking in Eton jargon goes straight over some people's heads, yet Britains First come in with the most basic of language, tell you Mohammed is coming to rape your wives if you don't vote out and that's enough for some people.

 

[silkyman]

Is there any evidence to suggest late registrations are from people more likely to vote 'remain'? I can't see why 'Leavers' would be annoyed by it. The more people who vote the better.

I do agree that it's daft so many left it so late but what can you do? You say the deadline is 'x', people expect to do it right up to 'x'.

The analogy I saw on Twitter was that punishing people for leaving it late before the deadline is as logical as giving someone three points on their licence for driving at 28.

I really don't understand why the leave lot are so annoyed. Use the opportunity to make sure as many of your supporters are registered too.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

History debate about the EU on the Daily Politics at the moment, Schama (pro) versus Roberts (anti). Undoubtedly the best bit of debate I've seen.

 

[Alty]

History debate about the EU on the Daily Politics at the moment, Schama (pro) versus Roberts (anti). Undoubtedly the best bit of debate I've seen.

Is Schama for Remain? He seemed to be leaning towards Brexit a while back.

 

[Luke Imp]

I'm not really one who’s clued up on everything politics wise and I'm undecided at the minute.

Reading around, it doesn’t seem that the EU of today is necessarily what we signed up for, which in some part if to be expected given how the world changes. Can’t say I’m overly sure whether the EU ‘block’ holds as much of a draw as it used to do i.e. I’m assuming the ‘block’ as a % is less now than 30 odd years ago i.e. more opportunities to independently trade successfully outside/out of the EU?

I don’t like the fact that UK laws/courts can be overruled by a few people sitting around a table in Brussels.

I’d personally welcome an Australian type points system towards immigration. Maybe not the same (I don’t know enough about it), although having said that I’m sure some current workers in the NHS wouldn’t have got into Australia when they moved here but would now.

Without rambling on too much, there are bits and pieces I’m not keen on that I imagine can’t be changed while we’re members of the EU.

All that said, my main concern is we’re effectively being asked to vote blind to some extent. We’re in the EU now, so we’ve got an idea how things will be but absolutely no idea how things will pan out, out of the EU.

Asking rhetorical questions here, but can the UK hold its own out of the EU? I’d suggest yes. I’m sure there are smaller countries who have and continue to do so. The EU comes across as being more advantageous for the smaller countries within it.

As I say, I’m not really into the whole politics stuff so apologies if some of that comes across too simplistic, wide of the mark, ridiculous or a combination of the three!

 

[Alty]

This Wollaston business is ridiculous, isn't it? I mean, her complaint about the NHS comments by fellow campaigners is quite justified. But to allow that to change your mind about the country's independence...fucking bizarre.

 

[SUTSS]

As I said earlier in this thread I was leaning toward Remain and I've leant further that way through the campaign. I haven't seen anything from the Leave campaign really and as their campaign has seemingly being built around a nonsense £350m a week that we can put into the NHS claim and talking up Turkey joining the EU which is very unlikely to happen in the short to medium term, I don't think I will be persuaded at this time.

Even amongst the few economists would are backing leave there seems to be a consensus that the economy would suffer, even if it was only a short term effect and that there would be a longer hit to growth. It's hard to say the exact figures obviously as we don't know what would be negotiated after a leave vote.

I'm not optimistic that we would be able to get a good deal either. For three reasons: We need EU trade more than the EU needs UK trade, the EU will fear a domino effect and therefore will not want to give an overly favourable deal, and large trading countries are much more keen for an EU trade deal than a UK one which therefore puts us down the list and weakens our negotiating position.

The counter argument to this is that we're the 5th/6th largest world economy but isn't this in some part because we are part of the EU? The economics editor of the FT also said: ‘The claim that the outcome will be fine because Britain is the fifth-largest economy in the world is technically wrong, a non sequitur and a fundamental misreading of history. It is hard to think of a worse argument’.

The sovereignty argument is romantic and appealing but I don't think it's worth the economic hit. It's all fine making your own decisions but is it worth a tanking economy and spiralling unemployment? For some people it is but I can't see that myself.

Is there a democratic deficit with the EU? Sure but we also have a democratic deficit in the UK and there isn't a perfect system out there. I also don't think the democratic deficit is as large as Leave claim it is and I also don't think it is large enough to be a reason for leaving on it's own.

There's also a case that it doesn't feel the right time in the current geo-political situation with an increasingly aggressive Russia who would love a fracturing Europe and the continued threat of Islamic terrorism.

In short, I will be voting remain because I haven't been convinced that we have anything to gain by voting Leave.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The success of the Remain campaign is convincing so many people that this is all about economics.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Is Schama for Remain? He seemed to be leaning towards Brexit a while back.

He must have changed, his views seemed to correspond with mine. Roberts argued very well the other way though.

 

[Alty]

Anyone watching this ITV debate? Not great quality thus far.

It took me a while to work out why something seemed unusual about it. Just worked out it's because it's 5 women and a bloke. Heh.

Amber Rudd is particularly DREADFUL.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Yeah, not great. 6 is a lot of people to have sharing a platform. 2 a side would work better I think.

 

[Nath]

Any good links out there for factual non-biased information for both sides of the argument?

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Is there any evidence to suggest late registrations are from people more likely to vote 'remain'? I can't see why 'Leavers' would be annoyed by it. The more people who vote the better.

I do agree that it's daft so many left it so late but what can you do? You say the deadline is 'x', people expect to do it right up to 'x'.

Younger voters comprise most of the late registrations and there's quite a lot of polling evidence which suggests that this demographic is overwhelmingly in favour of "remain" so I think that's why the Brexit camp is NARKED. Not sure what else could realistically have been done - it was a government website that crashed so it would have been a bit rubbish if they hadn't made any attempt to extend the deadline.