European Union Referendum

[Habbinalan]

How can anybody find the EU democratic? The remain lot have made sure they stay clear from that question for a reason.

 

[SUTSS]

I'm interested in the 5% of UKIP supporters who wouldn't vote leave. Did they not understand the question?

I know a Kipper voting remain. Hates the EU but doesn't feel that the economic or geo-political time is right for a big change.

 

[Alty]

I'm interested in the 5% of UKIP supporters who wouldn't vote leave. Did they not understand the question?

I thought the same!

The way the graph is being shared and the comments people are sharing with it display a lot of ignorance, I have to say. Completely confuses correlation and causation. Many people with better educational qualifications are pro-EU. But then such people tend to be quite comfortable in life and don't want a 'risky' change to the status quo. They're also more likely to employ or use services provided by Europeans at low cost.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I thought the same!

The way the graph is being shared and the comments people are sharing with it display a lot of ignorance, I have to say. Completely confuses correlation and causation. Many people with better educational qualifications are pro-EU. But then such people tend to be quite comfortable in life and don't want a 'risky' change to the status quo. They're also more likely to employ or use services provided by Europeans at low cost.

You also have the correlated variables as well. I would assume most graduates are in the under 40 bracket for example.

It's interesting but flawed.

Edit: sorry, just realised you mentioned correlation. I'm a moron.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I know a Kipper voting remain. Hates the EU but doesn't feel that the economic or geo-political time is right for a big change.

Maybe it's my own ignorance but isn't the whole premise of UKIP to leave the EU? I couldn't imagine supporting a party like that and not wanting to vote for the main thing they stand for. A chance like this should be a once in a generation thing. If I wanted out, I'd vote out irrespective of timing.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Many people with better educational qualifications are pro-EU. But then such people tend to be quite comfortable in life and don't want a 'risky' change to the status quo. They're also more likely to employ or use services provided by Europeans at low cost.

And probably more likely to work for an organisation that receives (or has received) some form of EU funding. Think a business organisaton like the CBI. Or a large charity like Oxfam, One World Action or the NSPCC. Or maybe even our beloved and super-duper-impartial national broadcaster.

 

[SUTSS]

Maybe it's my own ignorance but isn't the whole premise of UKIP to leave the EU? I couldn't imagine supporting a party like that and not wanting to vote for the main thing they stand for. A chance like this should be a once in a generation thing. If I wanted out, I'd vote out irrespective of timing.

I didn't say it made any sense.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

^ Please ask him when would be a good "economic and geo-political time", and report back.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Anything left to discuss? That's the biggest incitement to stay, innit?

 

[Gashead]

Anything left to discuss? That's the biggest incitement to stay, innit?

Depends whether you have people in charge of the UK that will bend over backwards for Murdoch or not really, dunnit? Unfortunately the lot at the moment are well and truly up his arse.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Depends whether you have people in charge of the UK that will bend over backwards for Murdoch or not really, dunnit? Unfortunately the lot at the moment are well and truly up his arse.

What about the people voting? My impression is, that in the UK, they still count people's votes. (Unlike America...)

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Ask yourselves this simple question: Who's gonna be left smiling, if it becomes a brexit? The likes of Murdoch, Trump and Putin, right? What does that tell you?

"The good folk wept, and the wicked laughed."
- N.F.S. Grundtvig

I will wear that bowler, if you stay.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Ask yourselves this simple question: Who's gonna be left smiling, if it becomes a brexit? The likes of Murdoch, Trump and Putin, right? What does that tell you?

Who would like us to stay? Warhawk Shillary? Islamist Erdoğan? Cameron and Corbyn?

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Who would like us to stay? Warhawk Shillary? Islamist Erdoğan? Cameron and Corbyn?

I'm not sure Erdogan is that crazy about a strong EU, either. ('Cause they dare to ask some shit of Ankara in terms of the Kurds and the Armenians and junk 'n stuff.)
http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2016/04/26/brexit-would-strengthen-erdogan-and-putin

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Now Cameron is threatening pensions to try and scare older voters...

 

[silkyman]

Come off it. Leave campaigners really can't be overly critical of anyone else's scare tactics.

70 MILLION TURKS ARE ALL COMING TO LIVE IN YOUR SPARE ROOM AND RAPE YOUR CAT

 

[Gashead]

Come off it. Leave campaigners really can't be overly critical of anyone else's scare tactics.

70 MILLION TURKS ARE ALL COMING TO LIVE IN YOUR SPARE ROOM AND RAPE YOUR CAT

Trouble is, isn't it bad that the Remain campaign can't win against this? Cameron et al. need to tell us why it is good to stay in the EU, rather than why it would be bad to leave. Labour haven't really been prominent enough either, and that comes from a supporter.

A month or two ago, I was very much remaining. However, the campaigns have been so bad that I've had to research myself to at least get a balanced view before I do vote. The more I find out about the EU, its set-up, its subsidies/failed spending, its treaties, its future plans, the more I am put off. There is a serious left-wing case for Brexit, away from the dogma put forward by both sides (mainly IMMIGRATION ARRGGHH and MONEY ARGGGHHH respectively).

The fact I am undecided having been staunchly Remain should worry the Remain camp, because there will be many who are more undecided than me. The idea that the youngsters will come out and save Remain is flawed, the politicians haven't done enough to inspire and inform them.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

All I can say is that us Scandis for one can't make it without you.
What the hell is going on all of a sudden? Putin has stolen the Kremlin, Trump is stealing The White House, and Britain is almost abandoning the EU, the most important project on the planet post 1945. Are you really gonna let Putin get his revenge for having lost Eastern Europe, just because them pesky little countries'd dare to rather be European than Russian? Why do you think he's bombing the shit out of civilians in Syria? To keep them refugees pushing on Fortress Europe, that's why. To destabilize the EU, that has stolen Stalin's war loot. People ain't exactly fleeing to Russia, is they? And it's bloody working. Why the fuck are you letting that little shit win? We need you lot now more than ever.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Come off it. Leave campaigners really can't be overly critical of anyone else's scare tactics.

70 MILLION TURKS ARE ALL COMING TO LIVE IN YOUR SPARE ROOM AND RAPE YOUR CAT

The difference of course being that the thing I referenced actually happened.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

Being fair to Cameron, independent study warns of a shortfall of money if we leave. It's then not a lie to say this could affect pensions (and the NHS etc.).

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Come on, chaps. It's getting more and more Europe against the rest of this sick world.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

As a 20 something graduate from London who votes Green and reads the Guardian plus is (currently at least) in the AB social class, I guess my remain stance is fairly predictable.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

As a 20 something graduate from London who votes Green and reads the Guardian plus is (currently at least) in the AB social class, I guess my remain stance is fairly predictable.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Feck, I read it wrong. Comfortably straddling C1 - currently.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

Feck, I read it wrong. Comfortably straddling C1 - currently.

I was only joking, I have no idea what social class a llama would occupy.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

Another thing that's doing the rounds. I'm sure it's not showing a load of measures that paint a different picture but interesting none the less.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Come on, chaps. It's getting more and more Europe against the rest of this sick world.

This is very much a continental mentality I think. I get the sense that the British are much more comfortable being part of the Anglosphere or the Commonwealth than part of Europe, for example.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Looks to me like Leave will win. I look forward to a cheque for £350m (per week) being paid into the NHS coffers next month.

Whatever way this vote goes there will be a huge political fall out about the way the campaign was conducted. The electorate have been lied to.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

What makes you think Leave will win?

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

First, sorry for the very late reply. You know the circumstances (baby still doing fine, BTW), but my apologies nonetheless.

We "perceive it to be a largely ceremonial role" because, in practice, it is. It's notable that you listed some powers but provided no examples of the monarch using and/or abusing them. Now since you're actually half-decent at debating and know that theoretical points are more cogent if supported by real life examples, I assume the omission is attributable to you not knowing any. And I further assume that you don't know any not because you're an ignorant jackanapes but because there aren't any to know of. Am I right?

Fond though I am of political theory, it matters less than lived experience of how individuals behave and how institutions actually work. Liz having inherited political power does grate on that 'intellectual level', but my concern disappears as soon as I relocate the grievance to the sphere of lived experience. Since there is a well-established trend of her not using those powers (at least not in any reckless, indulgent and unilateral sense), I don't care. Why worry about it? I imagine your lack of concern ("I'm actually fairly relaxed") is rooted in a similar understanding.

The monarchy doesn't get a pass because it's British and, my gum, that makes everything jolly well spiffing and fine. The point is that it concerns me considerably less than various other undemocratic institutions because there's a degree of trust there, one rooted in decades of lived experience. There is no such equivalent for the EU. I could sit here till dawn listing examples that illustrate my various anti-EU gripes, especially the democratic ones. That's the important difference.

The "unelected Head of State" argument only has rhetorical force if you smuggle in an assumption that the Head of State is a political figure with an influential role (as opposed to a merely ceremonial one) in our political and judicial decision-making processes. In our case, however, that assumption is false, thus rendering the argument fatuous. Abolishing the monarchy might give us the outward appearance of being a more meritocratic country than we actually are (would that be a good thing?), but in practical terms it would do nothing to improve our democracy. It would serve only to castrate an institution that has long resigned itself to political impotence.

Also, one should be careful not to conflate meritocracy and democracy. They are fundamentally different things.

I wasn't keen on AV but I did vote for it. I want a more proportional electoral system, so my basic take was that a tentative and rather uninspiring step in that direction was preferable to a endorsing the status quo, which is effectively what the decisive "no" vote in that referendum delivered. No doubt the timing and circumstances were… inauspicious, but ultimately people were asked directly if they wanted a more proportional electoral system and a strong majority decided they didn't.

Similarly, people are now being asked whether the UK should stay in or leave the EU. From a Leave perspective, now is not the best time to be having the referendum; but ultimately you have to trust people to understand what they're being asked and why it's important. My argument has always been that our relationship with the EU has no democratic legitimacy because we haven't been asked a direct question on it for 40+ years. Well, now we are. And if a majority vote Remain, they'll be no more complaining. At least not from me. As I've said before, we get the democracy we deserve.

I think my first answer covers this.

I'm afraid I don't see the rationale here. If we continue down the path we've been tiptoeing for the last 40+ years, our national institutions will only become less and less relevant. Abolish the monarchy, ditch FPTP, scrap the HoL… none of that would matter if we concurrently remained in the EU and continued the slow but steady process of transferring decision-making powers to unelected technocrats in Brussels. What good is it to improve the democratic process through which we elect British legislators if they're just going to gold-plate decisions made elsewhere, and by people over whom we have little-to-no democratic control?

If the principal concern is democracy – or, to be more precise, people having some democratic power and control over those who make decisions on their behalf – then the main concern has to be the EU. If you want greater power and oversight over politicians, then it's utter folly to focus on relatively powerless institutions like the monarchy and the HoL while hoofing the issue of EU membership into the tall grass. I get that it's easier – especially for Brits, who by and large seem to prefer self-flagellation to being outwardly critical of anything vaguely 'foreign' – but it's still folly.

Final thought: even if you disagree on what should be given priority, the simple and incontestable fact is we're having a referendum on EU membership. Unelected folk in the HoL, FPTP being an anachronism and any other domestic issue can be dealt with at some point in the future, regardless of how we vote in two weeks' time. It's not an either/or choice. We don't forgo the ability to deal with those problems if we vote to leave the European Union. I realise that democracy isn't everyone's principal concern, but people who do care about it ought to focus their minds on the present and ask a simple question: do we improve our democracy by remaining in the EU, or by leaving? Right now, the other stuff is a trivial distraction.

Ta for such a comprehensive response.

Whatever one thinks about the monarchy I think it would be rather churlish to deny that Liz has done an exemplary job. However, I think it's important to draw a distinction between the monarchy as an institution and the current monarch for the very simple reason that she's now a nonagenarian. As much as there is now plenty of fondness for the Queen (it's probably worth pointing out that she hasn't always been so admired) I'm not sure everyone harbours similarly warm thoughts towards her son, who is widely regarded as an interfering old busybody. Admittedly, a bunch of letters dubbed the "black spider" memos should probably have consisted of something more exciting than some old duffer's letters about farming, planning and architecture but that episode did rather indicate that some of the concerns about Charles (the lack of political neutrality, the exercise of undue influence over government ministers) may not be entirely unfounded. Indeed, he's such an embarrassment that senior royals (rather disconcertingly if you ask me) now enjoy total exemption from the Freedom of Information Act. This is an inherent flaw when it when it comes to monarchy. You may have someone quite competent in the role or you might end up with a total chump but there's not a great deal you can do about it either way.

You've probably gathered from past discussions that I'm not a great fan of referendums, and I'll be very glad when this one's been and gone, but I think I now probably share your view that an EU referendum was necessary, and probably even somewhat overdue. I also accept your argument re EU/UK institutions. I suppose my main contention here is simply that it's difficult to feel energised about a lack of democratic accountability where Brussels is concerned when so many people feel impotent to effect change at home.

I suspect you won't remotely agree with me on this point as you've explicitly stated that you don't think reform is possible but I do wonder if we could have achieved rather more were we not so belligerent in our approach. I don't claim to know whether the EU can be remodelled in the way that a lot of people would like it to be, but we would surely stand a better chance of doing so if we adopted a more conciliatory approach; the constant carping and focus on extracting concessions is probably not the ideal way reform an institution. The EU isn't all Merkel, Juncker and technocrats, it's a large bloc of countries, some of whose interests align with ours. Cameron's ham-fisted approach seems to me to have alienated a number of nations who would ordinarily be sympathetic to our position and yet he has relatively little to show for it. It may yet cost him his job.