European Union Referendum

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

are the turks actually moving closer to joining the eu then? i mean they've been trying to for decades ain't they, and in terms of civil and political rights they are poorer now than at any point in my lifetime. all the anti-turk propaganda has been getting to me is all

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

What makes you think Leave will win?

There's quite a lot of recent polling suggesting a move towards Leave, with a few pollsters now regularly showing them leading by a few points. Of course it's unclear quite how accurate the polling is and it could always shift back again, but Remain will be getting pretty jittery I should imagine.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

This is very much a continental mentality I think. I get the sense that the British are much more comfortable being part of the Anglosphere or the Commonwealth than part of Europe, for example.

You do know, that chosen isolationism is why the previously uncomparable Chinese empire fell behind and suddenly got their asses handed to them by the British in the first Opium War?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You do know, that chosen isolationism is why the previously uncomparable Chinese empire fell behind and suddenly got their asses handed to them by the British in the first Opium War?

Who said anything about isolationism? We'll be much more a part of the global community outside the EU than inside it.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Who said anything about isolationism? We'll be much more a part of the global community outside the EU than inside it.

But severely weakened in the face of... let's just pick something out of our hat... Russia. The first to fondle himself if leaving would be Putin, would you not agree? Why do you think Putin is bombing the shit out of civilians in Syria at this key point in time? To keep the refugee pressure on EU, that's why. These people are not exactly trying to reach Russia, is they? And Putin knew perfectly well, that this refugee crisis would make the EU countries fall out with each other, 'cause nobody wants these people. Which is exactly what happened, before all the borders shut down from Greece to Sweden. Why the fuck do you think he's hitting schools and hospitals now? Because you guys have that referendum now. This is his revenge, because the Kremlin has lost Stalin's old war loot Eastern Europe to this blasted EU. Just because Eastern Europe'd rather choose their own destiny and be in cahoots with Western Europe and not Russia. How dare they?

Don't you see, what's going on? Putin wants to tear the EU apart, and it's close to be working. Why does that little cock sucker have to win? Why are you doing exactly what Putin orders you to do? If anything, this is the perfect opportunity to tell him to go stick it. Where the hell is the bulldog?

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ge-organised-england-fans-marseille-euro-2016

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I beg of you, Brits, don't be this little KGB scum's willing tool. Don't prove to him, that Machiavelli was a genius. Then we might actually also help Russia getting back up from their misguided stupid pride.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

If Britain leave at this point in time, it will be the biggest historical tragedy the last thousand years. And will leave a smile on the face of all the wrong people.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

But severely weakened in the face of... let's just pick something out of our hat... Russia. The first to fondle himself if leaving would be Putin, would you not agree? Why do you think Putin is bombing the shit out of civilians in Syria at this key point in time? To keep the refugee pressure on EU, that's why. These people are not exactly trying to reach Russia, is they? And Putin knew perfectly well, that this refugee crisis would make the EU countries fall out with each other, 'cause nobody wants these people. Which is exactly what happened, before all the borders shut down from Greece to Sweden. Why the fuck do you think he's hitting schools and hospitals now? Because you guys have that referendum now. This is his revenge, because the Kremlin has lost Stalin's old war loot Eastern Europe to this blasted EU. Just because Eastern Europe'd rather choose their own destiny and be in cahoots with Western Europe and not Russia. How dare they?

Don't you see, what's going on? Putin wants to tear the EU apart, and it's close to be working. Why does that little cock sucker have to win? Why are you doing exactly what Putin orders you to do? If anything, this is the perfect opportunity to tell him to go stick it. Where the hell is the bulldog?

You cannot seriously believe that this argument would be effective. We're not twelve year olds, why would we gamble the fate of our nation for the sake of getting one over on Putin of all people? Why would we care what he wants if it's in our best interests too? I realise there's a lot of hysteria in the Swedish press at the moment about the supposed Russian threat, but it's all pure fantasy. It's just your government trying to change public opinion with regard to joining NATO.

If Britain leave at this point in time, it will be the biggest historical tragedy the last thousand years.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Whatever one thinks about the monarchy I think it would be rather churlish to deny that Liz has done an exemplary job. However, I think it's important to draw a distinction between the monarchy as an institution and the current monarch. Admittedly, a bunch of letters dubbed the "black spider" memos should probably have consisted of something more exciting than some old duffer's letters about farming, planning and architecture but that episode did rather indicate that some of the concerns about Charles (the lack of political neutrality, the exercise of undue influence over government ministers) may not be entirely unfounded. Indeed, he's such an embarrassment that senior royals (rather disconcertingly if you ask me) now enjoy total exemption from the Freedom of Information Act.

One advantage of prioritising lived experience over theory is you can change your mind in response to changing circumstances. If Charles strays too far from his mum's example and arses the whole thing up, I can revise my opinion.

FWIW, I never got the fuss over the "black spider" memos. All it really provided was evidence of a type of lobbying that government ministers can easily disregard should they choose, not least because the monarchy has no financial leverage over the government.

The main concern, as you acknowledge, is a lack of transparency. I broadly agree with your FOI point, but it's worth bearing in mind that FOI law is determined by parliament. Any exemption enjoyed by the royals is conferred on them by our elected legislature. Again, the focus has to be on where political/legislative power actually resides.

You've probably gathered from past discussions that I'm not a great fan of referendums, and I'll be very glad when this one's been and gone, but I think I now probably share your view that an EU referendum was necessary, and probably even somewhat overdue. I also accept your argument re EU/UK institutions. I suppose my main contention here is simply that it's difficult to feel energised about a lack of democratic accountability where Brussels is concerned when so many people feel impotent to effect change at home.

That's nice to hear. Genuinely. I honestly do come at this from the perspective of a frustrated democrat and (old-fashioned) liberal rather than that of a parochial little Englander. I wish the Leave campaign had done more to present withdrawal as a necessary first step in reforming our democracy rather than simply a desirable end in itself. There are a few exceptions (Dan Hannan really is great on this) but generally the approach has been to bludgeon the electorate with the "take back control" message without offering any accompanying ideas about what could then be done better.

suspect you won't remotely agree with me on this point as you've explicitly stated that you don't think reform is possible but I do wonder if we could have achieved rather more were we not so belligerent in our approach. I don't claim to know whether the EU can be remodelled in the way that a lot of people would like it to be, but we would surely stand a better chance of doing so if we adopted a more conciliatory approach; the constant carping and focus on extracting concessions is probably not the ideal way reform an institution.

You suspect right! I know I've made this point many times, and no doubt well past the point of tedium, but all this sensible-sounding stuff about making compromises, being conciliatory, patiently building a consensus for anti-federalist reform, etc. is naive, ahistorical guff. It's been tried. The concessions were pocketed and the slow trudge towards federal union continued anyway.

History tells us habitual moaning doesn't work either, and I agree that a recently lobotomised chimp could have handled the 'negotiation' better than Cameron, but ultimately what we're dealing with here is a philosophical schism. For various reasons, most of them rooted in our history, we just don't think about the EU in the way that most countries on the continent do. A lot of our basic assumptions about government and law are very different. This schism is only going to get worse in the coming years because the Eurozone crisis will be used to justify treaty reform towards further political and economic union.

Sometimes the best thing to do with irreconcilable differences is just accept them. Why keep butting heads? If I were a EUphile on the continent, I would actually look forward to Britain leaving. Good riddance to those obstructionist moaners. Good riddance to America's proxy. Now we can really get on with it. From a pro-federal perspective, it's a potentially liberating prospect.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

You cannot seriously believe that this argument would be effective. We're not twelve year olds, why would we gamble the fate of our nation for the sake of getting one over on Putin of all people? Why would we care what he wants if it's in our best interests too? I realise there's a lot of hysteria in the Swedish press at the moment about the supposed Russian threat, but it's all pure fantasy. It's just your government trying to change public opinion with regard to joining NATO.

You do know, that Putin's got the bomb, right? By the thousands. Imagine an Adolf with nukes; Blind in national pride and with an itchy trigger finger because of loss of past glory. Trust me, it ain't to your interest either to abandon the EU now. It's more and more Europe against a darkened world. Not even America has their shit together.
(And I think the current Stockholm government wants to stay out of NATO, which I personally disagree with.)

The good folk wept, and the wicked laughed. You're making me weap, ol' chap.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

When's the next rocket to Titan? I wanna get off.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You do know, that Putin's got the bomb, right? By the thousands. Imagine an Adolf with nukes; Blind in national pride and with an itchy trigger finger because of loss of past glory. Trust me, it ain't to your interest either to abandon the EU now. It's more and more Europe against a darkened world. Not even America has their shit together.

How would being in the EU safeguard us against this imaginary Russian threat?

 

[CEngelbrecht]

How would being in the EU safeguard us against this imaginary Russian threat?

You know what game theory is, right? You can't make it without the rest of Europe. And they can't make it without you.

Don't let yourself be fooled by the British morning papers, 'cause they've been bought up by the Kremlin. This is how it works in them damn corridors. Power destroys everything and it builds nothing.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I've completely lost the thread of this, err, thread.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You know what game theory is, right? You can't make it without the rest of Europe. And they can't make it without you.

I don't see how invoking game theory helps your argument. We're a nuclear power.

Don't let yourself be fooled by the British morning papers, 'cause they've been bought up by the Kremlin. This is how it works in them damn corridors. Power destroys everything and it builds nothing.

The obvious solution then being to move power away from the people and centralize it in Brussels?

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I've completely lost the thread of this, err, thread.

Just bloody Cassandra.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

The obvious solution then being to move power away from the people and centralize it in Brussels?

I'm actually impressed as to how effective and productive Brussels has worked so far. I know, you don't want to hear it, for some strange reason, we always want to distrust the officials (which often we should, don't get me wrong). But what is really the difference between distrusting guys in London and distrusting guys in Brussels? Why would I feel any different from Stockholm versus Brussels?
Look, it's just, I've been travelling both within and outside the EU. I know damn well what's worth betting on. The only beacon of light I can see right now in the middle of this world's increasing darkness... is bloody Europe. The rest of the planet seems to recede back into the void once again, including America. Evil prevails and prevails everywhere. And it would be a dreadful historical mistake for Her Majesty's isle to abandon the European project at this point, 'cause she's our only hope. That's all I can see.
But anyway, I know I can't do jackshit about it. I know you're not gonna pay attention to my opinion. I'm not even British, hell, not even Commonwealth, so I don't know, what the hell I'm talking about, right?

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

we won't suddenly stop being allies of france and the rest of europe if we left the eu lol

 

[blade1889]

I was undecided and probably leaning towards leave till Orlando and that changed me over to remain. For whatever faults it has the EU has helped to reduce homophobic discrimination in some of its legislature and that's something I'd like to see us build on, not be the first step in destroying it. Obviously what's important to me wont be for everyone hence why we're having a referendum but I'm genuinely surprised at how leave have closed the gap (and possibly overtaken remain).

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I'm just terrified about all this bullshit going on since 9/11. And we can't rely on America right now. I need you, lads.

 

[Gashead]

That's nice to hear. Genuinely. I honestly do come at this from the perspective of a frustrated democrat and (old-fashioned) liberal rather than that of a parochial little Englander. I wish the Leave campaign had done more to present withdrawal as a necessary first step in reforming our democracy rather than simply a desirable end in itself. There are a few exceptions (Dan Hannan really is great on this) but generally the approach has been to bludgeon the electorate with the "take back control" message without offering any accompanying ideas about what could then be done better.

Ha, this is interesting because my euroscepticism is similar, and yet with the talk centering around immigration and money you'd think the views of leaving to kickstart democratic reform were totally irrelevant.

It's why I have a problem with the argument, 'but the UK is more undemocratic than the EU'. Obviously the counter-argument is that being against undemocratic aspects of the EU, you're unlikely to be in favour of monarchical structures, House of Lords etc.

In truth though, the discussion being centered around immigration and the economy gives me warning from that perspective. Are Boris, Gove, Farage etc. really interested in UK democratic reform? I doubt it. And yes, the next point is that they do not have to run the country. However, the crux of the Brexit argument isn't about reform, it's about immigration - 'taking control' in that sense. When Johnson and Gove negotiate a deal with the EU, it will naturally involve single market use, and therefore free movement. So, for me, the power will move more towards right-wing conservatism and the likes of UKIP, than it will any party with interests in democratic reform.

However, part of me says this opportunity will never come up again. It's a tough one. If the arguments were about democratic reform, and there was a chance of that sort of thing happening in the event of Brexit, I think I'd leave for sure.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Are Boris, Gove, Farage etc. really interested in UK democratic reform? I doubt it.

Farage said that should Brexit be successful, voting reform would be his next big campaign.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I was undecided and probably leaning towards leave till Orlando and that changed me over to remain. For whatever faults it has the EU has helped to reduce homophobic discrimination in some of its legislature and that's something I'd like to see us build on, not be the first step in destroying it.

No problem with that being your priority; I'm just not sure how us leaving the EU (i.e. withdrawing from the political side of the project) damages that cause. There is nothing on the ballot paper about us withdrawing from the ECHR or UNHRC, and in theory there are plenty of ways in which a post-Brexit UK could pressure/encourage other countries into improving their human rights record, including that relating to LGBT people.

It's not fashionable to point this out because everyone is shit-scared of being thought racist, but frankly a blind man locked in a basement could see that the rise of homophobic violence worldwide is largely attributable to the growth of ultra-conservative branches of Islamic belief/practice (such as Salafism and Wahhabism), which is attributable to them being generously funded by oil-rich gulf states like Saudi Arabia. The West turning a blind eye to that is the root geopolitical problem. Not sure if there is a quick-fix solution, but at present our membership of the EU seems a completely irrelevance.

 

[Gashead]

Farage said that should Brexit be successful, voting reform would be his next big campaign.

You learn something every day- will have to have a read on what sort of angle he's taking on the subject.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

He talks about it here IIRC:

 

[CEngelbrecht]

No problem with that being your priority; I'm just not sure how us leaving the EU (i.e. withdrawing from the political side of the project) damages that cause. There is nothing on the ballot paper about us withdrawing from the ECHR or UNHRC, and in theory there are plenty of ways in which a post-Brexit UK could pressure/encourage other countries into improving their human rights record, including that relating to LGBT people.
It's not fashionable to point this out because everyone is shit-scared of being thought racist, but frankly a blind man locked in a basement could see that the rise of homophobic violence worldwide is largely attributable to the growth of ultra-conservative branches of Islamic belief/practice (such as Salafism and Wahhabism), which is attributable to them being generously funded by oil-rich gulf states like Saudi Arabia. The West turning a blind eye to that is the root geopolitical problem. Not sure if there is a quick-fix solution, but at present our membership of the EU seems a completely irrelevance.

The quick fix is keep buying electric cars. Then them medieval oil tyrants can go fuck themselves.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

No party in the UK suffers more from FPTP than UKIP (see 2015: 12.7% of the vote but 0.2% of the seats), so Farage and most of its members are all for PR. Have been for a while actually.

And their last manifesto proposed various other reforms: introducing a right of recall, encouraging more open primaries, strengthening the role of parliament through the use of confirmation and expenditure hearings, scrapping the Electoral Commission, clamping down on postal voting... Not all of that will be to everyone's taste (and most of it is probably more attributable to Carswell than Farage) but there's more there than most people would probably assume – enough to challenge this idea that UKIP have some kind of dewy-eyed reverance for the British system and only care about democracy when it concerns the EU.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

The quick fix is keep buying electric cars. Then them medieval oil tyrants can go fuck themselves.

This may be your most intelligent contribution to the discussion thus far.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

This may be your most intelligent contribution to the discussion thus far.

We can't disagree on everything.

 

[blade1889]

No problem with that being your priority; I'm just not sure how us leaving the EU (i.e. withdrawing from the political side of the project) damages that cause. There is nothing on the ballot paper about us withdrawing from the ECHR or UNHRC, and in theory there are plenty of ways in which a post-Brexit UK could pressure/encourage other countries into improving their human rights record, including that relating to LGBT people.

It's not fashionable to point this out because everyone is shit-scared of being thought racist, but frankly a blind man locked in a basement could see that the rise of homophobic violence worldwide is largely attributable to the growth of ultra-conservative branches of Islamic belief/practice (such as Salafism and Wahhabism), which is attributable to them being generously funded by oil-rich gulf states like Saudi Arabia. The West turning a blind eye to that is the root geopolitical problem. Not sure if there is a quick-fix solution, but at present our membership of the EU seems a completely irrelevance.

The EU made a law against workplace LGBT discrimination which as far as I can tell is separate from the ECHR. I think us beginning the 'dismantling' of the EU would lead to laws such as those being abandoned in some EU countries. And whilst one law in itself may seem small I hope that a continued EU would seek to advance on it.

I agree that in theory it could happen but in practice I'm not sure it currently is (where we have the opportunity re trade deals etc.) so doubt it will in future.