League 2 relegation thread 14/15

[Meadow]

The Grays debacle, that was quite funny really.
As Meadow says they assumed they would be accepted to Isthmian set up, when the placings came out they had actually been placed in the Essex Senior. The Isthmian and FA saying because they had not applied they had to go to 'county level'. I believe however that Grays managed to get into the Isthmian as they found some loophole that it was only 'new' clubs who had to apply to leagues, so rightfully they should have been placed in the Isthmian. This saga went on and on, their first appeal was rejected, they took it to some arbitration, who ruled for Grays - the FA then appealed that, failed and tried another arbitration to keep Grays in the Essex Senior, that also failed meaning the Isthmian had to accept them. They were still pissed off to be placed in North 1 - but I think they got some kind of monetary compensation if they accepted North 1 so they took it and went up easily first season.
I believe they have just had new ground plans accepted by the council and have all the funding in place so will be back in Grays soon. Not that, that is a good thing if you've ever been to Grays!
Ex-Southend Mark Bentley is their current manager, doing really well, although they have some incredibly shady characters at boardroom level.

Looking at their website this morning, they have funding to build a stadium but need the council's help in finding the land to build it.

I was wrong last night regarding making the play-offs, they're still in with a chance of grabbing that final spot.

 

[Jabba the gut]

Grays Athletic spring to mind as well. They were making waves in the conference, think they were top for ages but dropped into the playoffs. We got them in the cup 1 year and scraped past them in a replay at their place. This was when we were in league 1 and had the likes of Ian Harte, Danny Graham, Joe Garner etc as well.

Now grays no where to be seen.

Ahh Grays - we knew them well.

They eventually became one of our main rivals believe it or not - we actually had a 6'000 crowd for a top-of the table game against them once, which is exceptional for us.

The first time we came across them was during the season they obliterated Conference South and we drew them in the quarter-finals of the Trophy. It was our first or second season in non-league and many of our fans were still arrogantly contemptuous of non-league "tinpot rubbish" we'd never heard of like Grays. (As I mentioned before those were the days when ex-League sides could pretty much guarantee to be on of the biggest sides in the Conference and finish in or near the top of the league).

We all trekked down to Grays with not even a smidgen of doubt that an easy victory was in the offing. We were even more confident when we saw the "stadium". In those days Grays old ground didn't even have an away stand of any description - it was essentially just a piece of flat tarmac behind a barrier. Due to the fact that we took a good few hundred, sections of us actually had to allow women, kids and short people to the front so they could see.

If that wasn't enough they had a player in their side who looked as though he was about fourteen and would easily be blown away in a moderate wind. We were rubbing our hands together with glee, let me tell you.

Well famous last words or what. Almost the first move of the game saw their centre-forward (Denis Oli) leave our defence for dead with the kind of blistering pace he never recovered after being injured later on in his career. We then watched open mouthed as the aforementioned scrawny youth left three or four of our players floundering in his wake - including our ex-Premier League right back - before putting in the perfect cross for them to go 1-0 up. Our jaws became increasingly slack as they proceeded to pass us to death for ninety-plus minutes, eventually winning 4-1. To be honest we were lucky it wasn't 8-0. It was such a mindf*ck that some of us were actually laughing by the end of the game.

I have to say that while they were the epitome of the financially doped club, they didn't half use the money well. They were by far the best footballing side I can recall seeing during our five years in the Conference and on footballing merit alone should have been in the League. In fact I would go so far as to say they were up there in footballing terms with most sides we've played in League 2 as well. While I loathe the system that allows Frankenstein clubs to flourish, if any side had to get into the League that way, I would have liked to see Grays do it purely for the sheer quality of their football.

By the way - that scrawny, callow youth? Gary Hooper was his name.


If

 

[Jabba the gut]

Looking at their website this morning, they have funding to build a stadium but need the council's help in finding the land to build it...

The stadium is an interesting saga and to me shows the folly and the extreme danger of the contemporary and relatively recent innovation of the pernicious Sugar Daddy model that we have inflicted on the world of football.

Grays are an interesting example as they seem to have experienced both the bad kind of Sugar Daddy and what I believe is misguidedly regarded as the "good" kind of Sugar Daddy at the same time.

On top of the insane spending of their owner that has already been discussed, their old ground - the Rec - was originally owned by what we would normally think of as the decent, altruistic version of the football club benefactor, Ron Billings. The trouble is that even decent men tend to go the way of all flesh and when the ground eventually passed into the hands of his granddaughters (or maybe it was his daughters - I forget which) they promptly and indignantly demanded to know what a bunch of sweaty oiks were doing kicking a ball around on their prime development land.

To my mind that is one of the reasons why I hope we never put all our eggs in one man's basket ever again. Find me a rich man who can guarantee he'll never lose his fortune and who is both invulnerable to physical or mental illness and who is either immortal, or who can guarantee the future conduct of his heirs or successors and then I might be prepared to just about contemplate thinking about considering surrendering fan-ownership - before saying, "no thanks".

 

[Jabba the gut]

What about Weymouth? I'm sure they were doing quite well about 7-8 years ago, we got them in the fa cup and scraped through at Gigg after a replay. Money dried up and soon fell back to their natural level.

They were a very good side challenging in the Conference and pushing for the League.

It was quite funny really - we played them at their place early in the season their money ran out and in a similar fashion to Grays they ran rings around us. Fast forward a few months and their financial crisis hit just before they were due to play us at SJP. We then signed three of their players at cut-price and two of them scored for us as we ran out winners against the same Weymouth they'd been playing for not long before. Oh, the irony.

The only think I would say in their favour is that they are not a Forest Green (very few successful non-league sides are). Weymouth is a decent-sized settlement, which should probably be able to sustain a Conference National side - at least in a sane world where teams like Eastleigh can't pinch Oxford United's main striker.

I really think some people don't quite understand how bizarre the Forest Green scenario is. If they get promoted this year (God forbid) some League 2 fans are in for a bit of a shock.

 

[THE TERRACEMAN]

Please don't mention Grays Athletic.

 

[Meadow]

The stadium is an interesting saga and to me shows the folly and the extreme danger of the contemporary and relatively recent innovation of the pernicious Sugar Daddy model that we have inflicted on the world of football.

Grays are an interesting example as they seem to have experienced both the bad kind of Sugar Daddy and what I believe is misguidedly regarded as the "good" kind of Sugar Daddy at the same time.

On top of the insane spending of their owner that has already been discussed, their old ground - the Rec - was originally owned by what we would normally think of as the decent, altruistic version of the football club benefactor, Ron Billings. The trouble is that even decent men tend to go the way of all flesh and when the ground eventually passed into the hands of his granddaughters (or maybe it was his daughters - I forget which) they promptly and indignantly demanded to know what a bunch of sweaty oiks were doing kicking a ball around on their prime development land.

To my mind that is one of the reasons why I hope we never put all our eggs in one man's basket ever again. Find me a rich man who can guarantee he'll never lose his fortune and who is both invulnerable to physical or mental illness and who is either immortal, or who can guarantee the future conduct of his heirs or successors and then I might be prepared to just about contemplate thinking about considering surrendering fan-ownership - before saying, "no thanks".

Likewise. Many football supporters look down on fan ownership, but it's served us well in the last 15 years.

Please don't mention Grays Athletic.

Too late

 

[Southern Shayman]

For me, the difference between Forest Green and other sugar daddy teams like Crawley is the ability to expand the fan base.

Forest Green have pretty much 0 opportunity to do that. I think they have the highest attendance as a % of population in the country as it is and short of physically knocking on doors gestapo syle and escorting them to the ground, I don't see where the extra fans come from.

 

[Tom_CUFC]

I think I remember reading that FGR were contemplating moving to a site nearer Gloucester, I don't doubt for a second that the freak that's running them would have any hesitation about franchising them if it helped promote his business, he's already ripped the soul out of that football club for his own benefit.

For the record, FGR would be bad, but not as bad as Eastleigh.

 

[DarkSithLord]

They were a very good side challenging in the Conference and pushing for the League.

It was quite funny really - we played them at their place early in the season their money ran out and in a similar fashion to Grays they ran rings around us. Fast forward a few months and their financial crisis hit just before they were due to play us at SJP. We then signed three of their players at cut-price and two of them scored for us as we ran out winners against the same Weymouth they'd been playing for not long before. Oh, the irony.

The only think I would say in their favour is that they are not a Forest Green (very few successful non-league sides are). Weymouth is a decent-sized settlement, which should probably be able to sustain a Conference National side - at least in a sane world where teams like Eastleigh can't pinch Oxford United's main striker.

I really think some people don't quite understand how bizarre the Forest Green scenario is. If they get promoted this year (God forbid) some League 2 fans are in for a bit of a shock.

Welcome to the forum mate. Great username!

 

[iWomble]

For me, the difference between Forest Green and other sugar daddy teams like Crawley is the ability to expand the fan base.

Forest Green have pretty much 0 opportunity to do that. I think they have the highest attendance as a % of population in the country as it is and short of physically knocking on doors gestapo syle and escorting them to the ground, I don't see where the extra fans come from.

The highest % attendance in the UK must be Ross County who play in Dingwall (pop 4,500) and get at least 2,500 home fans in crowds of 3,000 to 6,000. They were getting crowds of 1,500 even 20 years ago when they were in the old bottom tier in Scotland where the standard is much worse than the Conference. Nailsworth's population is 50% bigger again than that.

They've got an even more back of beyond rural hinterland where people travel in from but it's a mighty impressive turnout.

 

[Jabba the gut]

I think I remember reading that FGR were contemplating moving to a site nearer Gloucester, I don't doubt for a second that the freak that's running them would have any hesitation about franchising them if it helped promote his business, he's already ripped the soul out of that football club for his own benefit.

They are actively seeking to move - in fact at the end of last year they had identified a site in Stroud, but faced competition from some incinerator or other. I'm not sure what happened.

Even if they do move Stroud is still pretty small - smaller than Fleetwood for example. That area is Rugby country anyway, so I'm not sure why the owner thinks FGR would be self-sufficient as a League club even if they moved there.

For the record, FGR would be bad, but not as bad as Eastleigh.

Why do you say that? After all Eastleigh is larger than many towns and small cities with League sides - it's has a bigger population than Exeter, Birkenhead, Burton, Morecambe, Shrewsbury, Bury, Carlisle and Stevenage and is not much smaller than Cambridge, Wycombe and Newport On top of that its more or less part of the Southampton-Portsmouth-Gosport Solent City conurbation which is the largest and most densely populated Urban Area in the South outside London. They have one of the country's biggest airports and a fast rail link to London - I don't think Forest Green/Nailsworth even has a bus service. Eastleigh is a Frankenstein club with no tradition, but IMO the prospect of them being in League 2 is not of the same order of ridiculousness as FGR being in the division.

 

[shoddycollins]

This relegation thread is humongous compared to all the other ones so our section must be the best on this forum surely, unless their banter is off the scales.

Just checked and it is indeed the largest football-related thread on the entire forum, and by some way. There are a couple of longer threads in general chat.

 

[Murphy]

I keep an eye on Grays and regardless of whether they get their own stadium soon, they'll likely have to move again soon again anyway. I'm pretty sure Aveley have got the go ahead to build a new ground starting maybe the end of this season or the start of the next, and in order to finance that they're selling off their current ground that Grays currently share. Obviously that leaves Grays homeless again, not that they particularly want to play in Aveley as it is anyway you'd imagine. Two seasons ago they had a season at Rush Green, which was actually the year they won promotion, West Ham must have hiked up the rent or simply chucked them out or I'd imagine they'd still be there.

They could always share with Hornchurch. They go pretty hand in hand with eachother and will probably be in the same league next season.

 

[Jabba the gut]

Likewise. Many football supporters look down on fan ownership...

More fool them. If ever Marx was proved right about the concept of false consciousness it can be seen in the phenomenon of some fans sneering at fan ownership and seeking the bogus and hugely dangerous quick fix of the Sugar Daddy. Too many modern fans eye the glitz and glamour and forget that there's more to a football club than league position.

IMO the system in this country is fecked. Since the big clubs killed the century old set of rules that were set up to ensure more even competition and then the Premier League and Sky ushered in the have-everything and have-feck all era half the clubs in the Football League/ex-League clubs have suffered an insolvency event (i.e administration or even liquidation). That's without mentioning the increasingly thick glass ceiling the Sugar Daddy/privately owned PL clubs have created that is killing the dream for many of the rest of us.

Unless fan ownership succeeds and spreads I'm convinced that the unique and immensely important system of fully professional, national lower league football we enjoy in the UK is going to suffer some kind of disaster. It may happen anyway and then at least fan-ownership will make the disaster easier to bear.

 

[Jabba the gut]

Welcome to the forum mate. Great username!

Thanks a million. Appreciate the kind words. I was on the old forum and wondered where it had gone.

 

[shoddycollins]

they had identified a site in Stroud, but faced competition from some incinerator or other.

Oh the irony!

Why do you say that? After all Eastleigh is larger than many towns and small cities with League sides - it's has a bigger population than Exeter, Birkenhead, Burton, Morecambe, Shrewsbury, Bury, Carlisle and Stevenage and is not much smaller than Cambridge, Wycombe and Newport

Looking at a map though, the boundaries of Eastleigh Borough are massive and seem to take in pretty much all of suburban Southampton. They can't seriously consider all of that to be their catchment area.

 

[Jabba the gut]

Bromley have loads of cash as well, their owner wants Football league status, I've said before if Whitehawk join them and Barrow and Fylde come up I could see all of them as top 10 sides in the Conference.

At least Bromley makes some sort of logical sense. Located in Greater London, with no league clubs I can think of lower than the championship nearby. Of course Palace would be raining on ther parade once they progressed past a certain point, but they should be able to sustain League 2 football with a following wind.

Of course catchment area isn't that simple - for example I've always wondered why Palace aren't a bigger club with a bigger fanbase given that they have such a huge swathe of London and environs to draw from

Someone mentioned FGR budget - last season in the Conference Luton and FGR were the only clubs with £1M+ budgets. This season I'd be surprised if they haven't got the largest budget . If FGR were to come up expect them right at the top of this division immediately, just like Crawley and Fleetwood.

Yep - unfortunately I think you're probably right.

 

[Leewilson]

I keep an eye on Grays and regardless of whether they get their own stadium soon, they'll likely have to move again soon again anyway. I'm pretty sure Aveley have got the go ahead to build a new ground starting maybe the end of this season or the start of the next, and in order to finance that they're selling off their current ground that Grays currently share. Obviously that leaves Grays homeless again, not that they particularly want to play in Aveley as it is anyway you'd imagine. Two seasons ago they had a season at Rush Green, which was actually the year they won promotion, West Ham must have hiked up the rent or simply chucked them out or I'd imagine they'd still be there.

They could always share with Hornchurch. They go pretty hand in hand with eachother and will probably be in the same league next season.

I did really enjoy our games with Grays back in the non league. They had one hell of a team back then as well.

Kightly Thurgood, Hooper, Poole, Oli, Nutter, Mclean etc.

I remember rocking up at their place in their first Conference season and stuffing them 4-0. That was beautiful. Mind you, they got their revenge in a 4-2 win at our place in the FA Trophy quarters that season.

 

[Leewilson]

I keep an eye on Grays and regardless of whether they get their own stadium soon, they'll likely have to move again soon again anyway. I'm pretty sure Aveley have got the go ahead to build a new ground starting maybe the end of this season or the start of the next, and in order to finance that they're selling off their current ground that Grays currently share. Obviously that leaves Grays homeless again, not that they particularly want to play in Aveley as it is anyway you'd imagine. Two seasons ago they had a season at Rush Green, which was actually the year they won promotion, West Ham must have hiked up the rent or simply chucked them out or I'd imagine they'd still be there.

They could always share with Hornchurch. They go pretty hand in hand with eachother and will probably be in the same league next season.

I did really enjoy our games with Grays back in the non league. They had one hell of a team back then as well.

Kightly Thurgood, Hooper, Poole, Oli, Nutter, Mclean etc.

I remember rocking up at their place in their first Conference season and stuffing them 4-0. That was beautiful. Mind you, they got their revenge in a 4-2 win at our place in the FA Trophy quarters that season.

 

[Laker]

I once saw us get beat 5-3 at Grays. We were 4-1 down at half time, conceded a 5th just after the break and then ripped Grays to shreds in the second half, could easily have won it but just came up short. Was a bonkers game. I still remember that fat bloke with that fucking bell and the little chav kids running around like they'd won the world cup.

 

[hellogregory]

I've just remembered more about our FA cup tie with Grays.

We drew 1-1 with them at Brunton park. Shocking performance it was, Gary Madine got an equalise for us late on.

Then we went there on a Tuesday night, went a goal down. Then the lights went off about 15 minutes into the game...... and they couldn't get them back on.....So we had to go home. It was rearranged for a Saturday lunch time (the day of the next round). So off we trotted back to Grays again. We got a 2-0 win. Danny Graham and Graham Kavanagh with our goals.

 

[Kim Mitten]

At least Bromley makes some sort of logical sense. Located in Greater London, with no league clubs I can think of lower than the championship nearby. Of course Palace would be raining on ther parade once they progressed past a certain point, but they should be able to sustain League 2 football with a following wind.

Of course catchment area isn't that simple - for example I've always wondered why Palace aren't a bigger club with a bigger fanbase given that they have such a huge swathe of London and environs to draw from
.

I agree about Bromley, my issue with sugar daddies skewing competition in the non-league is largely one of sustainability. I can understand why someone wants to invest in Crawley, a largely untapped area, although on their current attendances in the 3rd tier it appears that area of the country actually has little time for professional football. I can see it with Bromley as well, they have a massive number of people to lure to games, but like Crawley it remains to be seen if they care enough about lower league football or would rather watch Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Charlton, Millwall and West Ham.
I've got no problems with billionaires taking on the likes of Chelsea and PSG - these clubs have resources, land and revenue streams that long term will make their owners money, what I can't get my head around is why competent business people take on a Whitehawk or FGR unless they are happy to lose hundreds of thousands of pounds (and hope their current revenue steams stay afloat) or they have other motives like land sales or moving the clubs, which basically means they took them on to see them go down the pan.

 

[WAP]

I'll be honest I do like the idea of a village team like FGR coming up and playing league football, well that is until they beat us home and away.

 

[Aber gas]

I agree about Bromley, my issue with sugar daddies skewing competition in the non-league is largely one of sustainability. I can understand why someone wants to invest in Crawley, a largely untapped area, although on their current attendances in the 3rd tier it appears that area of the country actually has little time for professional football. I can see it with Bromley as well, they have a massive number of people to lure to games, but like Crawley it remains to be seen if they care enough about lower league football or would rather watch Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Charlton, Millwall and West Ham.
I've got no problems with billionaires taking on the likes of Chelsea and PSG - these clubs have resources, land and revenue streams that long term will make their owners money, what I can't get my head around is why competent business people take on a Whitehawk or FGR unless they are happy to lose hundreds of thousands of pounds (and hope their current revenue steams stay afloat) or they have other motives like land sales or moving the clubs, which basically means they took them on to see them go down the pan.

Fgr fans ( at least on 1ff ) seem pretty happy and accepting of being part of vince's marketing plan . Its clearly not sustainable but I guess they're just enjoying the ride and fuck the consequences.

 

[shoddycollins]

I've got no problems with billionaires taking on the likes of Chelsea and PSG - these clubs have resources, land and revenue streams that long term will make their owners money, what I can't get my head around is why competent business people take on a Whitehawk or FGR unless they are happy to lose hundreds of thousands of pounds (and hope their current revenue steams stay afloat) or they have other motives like land sales or moving the clubs, which basically means they took them on to see them go down the pan.

With the possible exception of Malcolm Glazer, and indirectly (through promotion opportunities) FGR, nobody seriously buys a football club as an investment, a few will try and it always goes wrong (and perhaps some of those do have one eye on the club folding and the ground being sold for housing) most though have no expectation of ever seeing their money again.

This is in a way what makes it so unbalanced and unsustainable. The resources these football clubs have at their disposal is just what their owners are prepared to lose, their fanbase or whether they own their own ground is an irrelevance for as long as the owner stays active. As soon as the owner leaves, or stops putting money in they are doomed. This doesn't just go for the tinpotters, many league clubs operate like this too, and it's what financial fair play was designed to stop.

Even well run clubs won't usually make their owners any money, the difference is that they've been set up for the long term, so that they require no further investment. This is when the club is run by sensible people who care about the future of the club, however the ego-trippers don't care what happens to the club once they've left, as long as they can write their own personal fairytale, everyone else can do one.

 

[shoddycollins]

I'll be honest I do like the idea of a village team like FGR coming up and playing league football, well that is until they beat us home and away.

Losing at home to FGR in the conference was one of the lowest points in my time as a Carlisle fan.
This was back when they were crap, and not one of those crashing and burning crap clubs like Hyde either, just consistently crap yet able to survive in the conference because it wasn't full of money clubs yet (and a bit of luck when it came to reprieves).

 

[Aber gas]

Losing at home to FGR in the conference was one of the lowest points in my time as a Carlisle fan.
This was back when they were crap, and not one of those crashing and burning crap clubs like Hyde either, just consistently crap yet able to survive in the conference because it wasn't full of money clubs yet (and a bit of luck when it came to reprieves).

Nothing says you've hit non league like losing to fgr except maybe getting thrashed by altrincham or drawing away at something called alfreton

 

[shoddycollins]

Nothing says you've hit non league like losing to fgr except maybe getting thrashed by altrincham or drawing away at something called alfreton

What's an alfreton?

 

[Aber gas]

What's an alfreton?

It doesnt look like you will be finding out !!

 

[Luke Imp]

Spare a thought for poor old Welling last season - the only team to lose to Hyde.