The Bolton (Relegation) Thread

[Gladders]

Please tell me 1 team being run at a profit

Grimsby Town FC
2017 accounts - 45k profit
2018 accounts - 15k loss
2019 accounts - 12k loss
2020 accounts - 146k profit

Total 164k profit in our 4 seasons back in the FL.

Is causing us to go back down but hey we're profitable!

 

[Robshep]

I was always gutted when Spearing left. He was one I was desperate to keep at the time. Feeney wasn’t great for us. Seems to be playing well for you on highlights I’ve seen

Jay Spearing is still doing tackles like its 1980s rules. Player of the Season for me. Feeney seems to be enjoying it at Tranmere but at 34 i do not know if we would try to sign him in the summer.

 

[stevowanderer]

Grimsby Town FC
2017 accounts - 45k profit
2018 accounts - 15k loss
2019 accounts - 12k loss
2020 accounts - 146k profit

Total 264k profit in our 4 seasons back in the FL.

Is causing us to go back down but hey we're profitable!

That’s 164k profit mate but I get your point. How would going down affect turnover etc just out of curiosity? And year end to 2020 won’t have seen the impact of covid?

 

[Gladders]

That’s 164k profit mate but I get your point. How would going down affect turnover etc just out of curiosity? And year end to 2020 won’t have seen the impact of covid?

Sorry yeah meant to be a 1 not a 2!

Think it's around a million in lost revenue between conference and lge 2. Those were accounts for year ending 31 May 2020 so not full effect of covid but did have the missing games at end of last season.

See graphs below for comparison in revenue, profit etc from conference years and lge 2 years

https://twitter.com/x/status/1339842671255367681

 

[stevowanderer]

Sorry yeah meant to be a 1 not a 2!

Think it's around a million in lost revenue between conference and lge 2. Those were accounts for year ending 31 May 2020 so not full effect of covid but did have the missing games at end of last season.

See graphs below for comparison in revenue, profit etc from conference years and lge 2 years

https://twitter.com/x/status/1339842671255367681

That’s a big drop isn’t it. 2002 looked a good year. Weren’t you championship/div 1 back then?

 

[Gladders]

That’s a big drop isn’t it. 2002 looked a good year. Weren’t you championship/div 1 back then?

Yes but that was also the year ITV digital collapsed and we were relegated the season after

 

[stevowanderer]

Yes but that was also the year ITV digital collapsed and we were relegated the season after

Looks like the majority of us at this level have our fair share of horror stories and falls from grace. Having so many good clubs from top to bottom of the pyramid is what makes English football the best in the world. Just need to filter more money from the top. Fuck all this B team nonsense that the mega clubs want. It would ruin it

 

[Robshep]

Looks like the majority of us at this level have our fair share of horror stories and falls from grace. Having so many good clubs from top to bottom of the pyramid is what makes English football the best in the world. Just need to filter more money from the top. Fuck all this B team nonsense that the mega clubs want. It would ruin it

The Italians are at it now. Juventus under 23s are in their 3rd division along with a few others. Used to only be have 1st teams all the way down to local level. Let the greedy so called big clubs go to a European League and see how long they remain big.

 

[Robshep]

Yes but that was also the year ITV digital collapsed and we were relegated the season after

That hurt a lot of clubs.

 

[Si Robin]

We were one of the few to come through unscathed. To this day I always considered Paul Baker the best chairman in the league because he never spent the money before we got it.

I get why the clubs did, when it's written into a contract you expect it to be adhered to. How the Football League didn't get any security put into the contract (ensuring if ITV Digital failed that Carlton and Granada would be responsible) is one of the biggest scandals in English football in my view.

Did anyone else have ITV Digital? I did - for the sports channel alone. It was great what they tried to do for all 3 Football League divisions, but it was never going to be a long-term success.

 

[GTFCfish]

I remember at the time one of our best players Danny Butterfield said that he would happily take a pay cut to stay here but we couldn’t afford to offer him anything at all so he had to be let go, and he went on to play in the Premier League.

 

[Vanni]

Massive signing on fees and huge wages your players are on due to that before end of June/July loophole thing. Looks like it will work out for you though, so I'm pleased for you. No doubt you'll do the same in L1. Maybe there'll be nobody to bail you out this time though and you'll finally go bust. You can expect a message from me when that happens with directions to Skegness.

I actually think Morecambe are on a higher budget than they usually are. I'd say we were probably on a smaller budget than FGR at the start of the season but the change in personnel and scramble to avoid the drop at our club has probably inflated it. There's no question that we started the season on one of the smallest in the league.

Yep, I did hear their's a mid table budget this season. Apparently they were struggling to attract decent players due to their location (and lack of ambition) and so have been offering more dosh to entice them to sign for them. Also, seems like Derek Adams was the one that started pushing to better players at his disposal.

Whether this is true or not I do not know. I'm only sharing what a friend of a friend of a friend of mine told me

 

[Son of Cod]

I remember at the time one of our best players Danny Butterfield said that he would happily take a pay cut to stay here but we couldn’t afford to offer him anything at all so he had to be let go, and he went on to play in the Premier League.

That was a blow that was softened by the fact that we had John McDermott, in all fairness. Same with Simon Ramsden, who went on to have a solid L1/L2 career.

 

[Son of Cod]

Signing on fees don’t really work like they used to. They are normally nowadays loyalty bonuses paid over the life of a contract. Doyle is on a 3 year deal. Even if in your eyes we gave him 100k signing on (which we didn’t) that’s £641 per week. Usually if the player leaves the club during his contract the club will come to an arrangement to pay it off or settle the outstanding amount depending on how desperate the player is to leave. Win bonuses etc yes .. our contracts have win bonuses but we didn’t win in the first half of the season so didn’t cost us anything. Haha. Aren’t all clubs still tied to FFP as well? So it’s not like we can spend outside our means. Not sure about that anyone can really anymore and get away with it. Virtually all of our historical debt was run up pre ffp. You can’t fund a club like you used to be able to.

This ownership is a lot more sustainable and has openly said that we have budgeted for league 2 this season within our embargo constraints and within the salary cap. Our previous owner just stopped funding the club whilst drawing a pretty healthy salary for him and his son. Historical debts were mainly to a benefactor and even then the club was badly managed higher up. This is the best set of owners we’ve had in my lifetime in my opinion. IMO the club is the most sustainable it’s been in my lifetime despite the pandemic.

The salary cap loophole doesn’t make that much of a difference anyway because it just uses the average league 2 wage doesn’t it before it came in? Our highest paid player is on 3k a week basic. Doyle, sarcevic, delfouneso, Crawford and a few others signed before the caps. Gilks (gk coach), Declan John, mj Williams, Kieran Lee, Afolayan, Marcus Maddison and a good chunk of the others were signed/loaned after the cap and before it was cancelled so are within those guidelines.

The Pandemic obviously won’t have helped any team so it’s even more important now that we don’t overspend and gamble with the club to get back to where we were.

They should be, but with all due respect, your club doesn't have a great track record of necessarily abiding by the rules hence me flagging it. I guess one aspect to consider is whether or not FFP is being properly regulated. All clubs should be PLCs for me, especially ones that have had financial troubles in the past.

How do you know that the likes of Doyle are on 3k a week? Let's say that's true and for example Sarcevic is on what...2k a week? Delfouneso and Crawford probably on similar? That could be close to a third of your budget on five players.

Obviously, I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit but the quality of your squad doesn't tally up without significant incentives in my opinion.

 

[masi51]

They should be, but with all due respect, your club doesn't have a great track record of necessarily abiding by the rules hence me flagging it. I guess one aspect to consider is whether or not FFP is being properly regulated. All clubs should be PLCs for me, especially ones that have had financial troubles in the past.

How do you know that the likes of Doyle are on 3k a week? Let's say that's true and for example Sarcevic is on what...2k a week? Delfouneso and Crawford probably on similar? That could be close to a third of your budget on five players.

Obviously, I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit but the quality of your squad doesn't tally up without significant incentives in my opinion.

The was a loophole last summer and players signed got clased as the lge 2 average salary which i think was set at 68k

All those you mention had signed contracts pre the 1.5m cap. As such they are classed at 68k for this season

 

[Son of Cod]

The was a loophole last summer and players signed got clased as the lge 2 average salary which i think was set at 68k

All those you mention had signed contracts pre the 1.5m cap. As such they are classed at 68k for this season

Yes, that's my point. You're aware that your club is paying them the amounts on their contract, right? I'm talking about the actual wages that are coming out.

Edit: Ah actually, those are pre-the loophole? I mis-read that initially, thought it was being said that they were after the loophole.

 

[masi51]

Yes, that's my point. You're aware that your club is paying them the amounts on their contract, right? I'm talking about the actual wages that are coming out.

Edit: Ah actually, those are pre-the loophole? I mis-read that initially, thought it was being said that they were after the loophole.

Yes but we paid decent Salaries for 5/6 players pre cap......then signed about 15/16 on very low wages from non league teams and released players. We give one year contracts to these and only Santos was good enough to play league football. All the rest have not gone out on loan or will be released come May

 

[Conker]

Yep, I did hear their's a mid table budget this season. Apparently they were struggling to attract decent players due to their location (and lack of ambition) and so have been offering more dosh to entice them to sign for them. Also, seems like Derek Adams was the one that started pushing to better players at his disposal.

Whether this is true or not I do not know. I'm only sharing what a friend of a friend of a friend of mine told me

It’s obviously true by the business they did, when a team start signing higher quality it’s usually because they are willing to offer more money.

 

[stevowanderer]

They should be, but with all due respect, your club doesn't have a great track record of necessarily abiding by the rules hence me flagging it. I guess one aspect to consider is whether or not FFP is being properly regulated. All clubs should be PLCs for me, especially ones that have had financial troubles in the past.

How do you know that the likes of Doyle are on 3k a week? Let's say that's true and for example Sarcevic is on what...2k a week? Delfouneso and Crawford probably on similar? That could be close to a third of your budget on five players.

Obviously, I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit but the quality of your squad doesn't tally up without significant incentives in my opinion.

I think the not playing by the rules is a bit harsh. We played by the ‘rules’ to get to the prem in the first place. Our debt was mainly to our owner and benefactor who helped spend the money in the first place (although a chunk of the debt was actually interest that kept accruing) If we hadn’t been relegated we would have been fine. The real issue was when he ran out of money/became unwell and didn’t want to continue so he looked to sell the club. He tried to sell the club for quite a few years then we end up with a rogue owner in Ken Anderson via/in conjunction with Dean Holdsworth. Ken Anderson was banned from being the director of a business several years before this for certain financial irregularities. But we had no choice. It was basically this or fold like Bury and Macclesfield who couldn’t get a deal done. He is apparently one dodgy bastard. Then he withdrew funding/didn’t have the money in the first place, didn’t pay players or staff etc But him and his agent son sat pretty on 6 figure salaries. Our current owners are a different species to those crooks.

I know a few of the players reps and have family who during Eddie Davies era were heavily involved at the club. Still got contacts. At the beginning of the season this was offset with the likes of Liam Gordon, Mascoll etc who were on less than a grand a week. U21 players don’t count towards salary cap and if you factor in several teams have 5 plus loans in their squad paying anywhere from 0%-100% wages ( plenty of loans are kids under 21 so don’t count towards cap) You can fiddle the salary cap with loans too by paying a loan fee and 0% wages. Don’t think Bolton can because of embargo though. So in reality you have a few u21s,5 loans and in a squad of 22-25 how many players are you actually paying as part of the cap? 15?

I understand where you are coming from but sarc is from Manchester so wanted to move closer to his family. Doyle came because of a 3 year deal (a risk I agree at 32). Not specifically for the wage. For arguments sake if everyone is under salary cap in this league and can pay similar wages within that cap and you could play for anyone in the league as a player that has no affiliation with a club which one would you choose? We have probably the best infrastructure/stadium/ training facilities. We are trying to play good football. We are possibly the most ambitious as we are desperate to get back up the leagues. I think most players would choose Bolton if offered equal terms. Some people may disagree.

 

[stevowanderer]

Yes but we paid decent Salaries for 5/6 players pre cap......then signed about 15/16 on very low wages from non league teams and released players. We give one year contracts to these and only Santos was good enough to play league football. All the rest have not gone out on loan or will be released come May

Exactly

 

[stevowanderer]

To be honest I am pro salary cap (maybe as a percentage of turnover or something). The misconception is that Bolton want to cheat the system. After nearly losing our club like several on here have been through we just want sustainability and a decent team to watch every week whatever division we are in. The transgressions of previous owners aren’t really our fault as fans. We just love our club like everyone on here does.

 

[Bottega Don]

To be honest I am pro salary cap (maybe as a percentage of turnover or something). The misconception is that Bolton want to cheat the system. After nearly losing our club like several on here have been through we just want sustainability and a decent team to watch every week whatever division we are in. The transgressions of previous owners aren’t really our fault as fans. We just love our club like everyone on here does.

You're unfortunately suffering for Masi's sins, everyone hates Bolton on here because of him.

 

[stevowanderer]

You're unfortunately suffering for Masi's sins, everyone hates Bolton on here because of him.

Haha did most of you not hate us before that?

 

[Bottega Don]

Haha did most of you not hate us before that?

My only dislike for Bolton comes you being able to afford Adam Le Fondre when we couldn't in 2016/17. His goals then helped fire you up while we collapsed and lost in the play-offs.

 

[Si Robin]

Haha did most of you not hate us before that?

I don't think anyone cared.

There's a couple of ways to come down the leagues:

1. Be respectful, ignore everyone calling you out for being Billy big bollocks and "serve your time" so to speak

or

2. (like Masi did) talk down to everyone, refer to clubs as having one man and his dog in their ramshackle grounds and brag about how you're only here for one season before flying straight through League 1 into the Championship

Unfortunately, because Masi picked option 2 it's tarred the rest of the Bolton lot with the same brush. Ian Evatt's bullshit in interviews when Bolton were struggling didn't help things either.

 

[stevowanderer]

My only dislike for Bolton comes you being able to afford Adam Le Fondre when we couldn't in 2016/17. His goals then helped fire you up while we collapsed and lost in the play-offs.

I did like Le Fondre. But he wasn’t used in the right way. We played shite hoof ball with Parky but it got the job done at the time. He’d score a ton of goals in our team now. Would suit him much better now. He was another one that is a fairly local lad to us. One of his younger cousins plays in our youth team now.

 

[chipmunx]

as Bolton are now on 54 points can we officially lock this thread?

 

[stevowanderer]

I don't think anyone cared.

There's a couple of ways to come down the leagues:

1. Be respectful, ignore everyone calling you out for being Billy big bollocks and "serve your time" so to speak

or

2. (like Masi did) talk down to everyone, refer to clubs as having one man and his dog in their ramshackle grounds and brag about how you're only here for one season before flying straight through League 1 into the Championship

Unfortunately, because Masi picked option 2 it's tarred the rest of the Bolton lot with the same brush. Ian Evatt's bullshit in interviews when Bolton were struggling didn't help things either.

Fair enough. Haven’t seen most of that being new in on the forum. Not my style to do that personally. If you go in saying how good you are at anything you are setting yourself up to fail. I genuinely didn’t know what to expect this season. Hopeful but had so many poor seasons where you think it couldn’t get any worse and then it does haha

 

[kieran_vale]

The only thing I’ve had against Bolton is the fact they stole what should have been our promotion spot in the 92/93 season. Not quite as much as towards WBA who then beat us in the playoff final though.

 

[stevowanderer]

The only thing I’ve had against Bolton is the fact they stole what should have been our promotion spot in the 92/93 season. Not quite as much as towards WBA who then beat us in the playoff final though.

I was 4 so don’t really remember that one. I know how you feel. I went to the playoff final at the old Wembley against Watford in 99 and we lost that. That was pretty painful even at the age of 10 or so