The Cricket Thread

[Saddlerrad]

Batsmen with no steel that predictably collapse everytime they get a chance to really take control of a game and a spin bowling attack so pathetic that we relied on quick bowlers in about the most unfriendly fast bowling conditions you could find in the game of cricket. That 6-80 the other morning does look like it was costly now too doesn't it....

In South Africa, Hales must open, Taylor, Bell and Root must be the middle order and for god sake, hire some spin specialists and send them to work with the County's for the next few years, that or we will remain hopeless in Asia. 2-0 is very harsh on England and we certainly showed more than we did when number 1 3 years ago.

 

[Baz]

Well the two spinning tracks in County cricket are Glamorgan & Northants and let's be honest it takes an age for anyone from these counties to get sniffs of the test arena. If you're very lucky you'll get ODI or Lions but that's about it. Glamorgan have a couple of very good young spinners who are getting game time and are playing some Aussie grade cricket this winter to continue their development but you can guarantee they won't be getting a look in unless they move to a more fashionable county.

 

[Super_horns]

Onto the ODIs - maybe have better luck there?

And probably more of a crowd!

 

[hodge]

Gary Kirsten and Daniel Vettori to work with England Lions over the winter.

 

[Matt_]

As England struggle, Australia go at 4.5 an over against NZ my how the other half live

I'm not sure a first day road at the Gabba and a fifth day bunsen at Sharjah is any sort of reasonable comparison.

 

[Baz]

I'm not sure a first day road at the Gabba and a fifth day bunsen at Sharjah is any sort of reasonable comparison.

Well no but still a pretty new Aussie team and all. NZ have the same problem with us with a spinner it seems.

 

[Matt_]

A few salient points.

England weren't realistically expected to get anything out of this series as Pakistan pretty much beat all opposition in test series played in the UAE. However it is fair to say England that have generally competed well in this series, certainly far better than the then number one ranked England test side did on out last visit and there are positives to be taken out of it.

The poor quality of England's spin bowling options going into the series was well known so it shouldn't come as a major surprise that they were so ineffective against Pakistan batters who are excellent players of spin and playing in familiar conditions.

Not trying to be clever after the event here, as I said before the series that England selecting two spinners in these games wasn't necessarily the correct option. England should play to their strengths and if that involves only playing one spinner in whatever conditions so be it. I don't believe for one minute that we would have faired any worse in this series if an extra pace bowler had been chosen ahead of the second spinner throughout.

South Africa competed at or near to the top of the test rankings far many years without any sort of recognised quality spinner, often relying on the likes of Duminy to provide their spin option, or average performers like Harris when they did select a recognised spinner. Arguably they still are as Tahir is very ordinary at test level. Yes they have a top class pace attack, but Anderson, Broad, Wood, Finn etc aren't too shady either.

England are now largely where they were going into this series, and other than identifying a third pace bowler largely where they were after the West Indies tour also. The same questions remain over Cook's opening partner and the front line spinner. The wicket keeping position can now also possibly be added into the equation, but I'm fairly confident Buttler will regain his form with the bat and reclaim his place in the near future.

In terms of spinners the cupboard is largely bare so England fans will have to remain very patient until someone comes through, which they will, but it may take several years. Personally I think Mason Crane will play for England in a couple of years time if he continues to develop as he has a huge amount of natural talent, but it's still too soon for him to be considered for the full test squad.

 

[Matt_]

and for god sake, hire some spin specialists and send them to work with the County's for the next few years, that or we will remain hopeless in Asia.

I think there are other factors that result in the current shortage of spinners coming though.

Namely a lot of four day cricket being played at the start or end of the season, but also County captains reluctance to give spinners a long bowl and County selectors reluctance to give young spinners a long run in the side.

If every time a young spinner gets some tap he is whisked out of the attack or after every bad game he's consigned back to the second eleven progress in terms of our options at test level will remain slow.

 

[Pyeman]

A few salient points.
The poor quality of England's spin bowling options going into the series was well known so it shouldn't come as a major surprise that they were so ineffective against Pakistan batters who are excellent players of spin and playing in familiar conditions.

Whilst this is true, I think we could have expected more from England's spinners than we ultimately got. I know Pakistan are some of the best players of spin in the world, but they didn't have to be in this series. I'd have backed myself to put away most of those full bungers [of which there were plenty].

I think that's the most disappointing thing; we took average spinners with us, but they didn't deliver even average performances.

 

[Aber gas]

Well the two spinning tracks in County cricket are Glamorgan & Northants and let's be honest it takes an age for anyone from these counties to get sniffs of the test arena. If you're very lucky you'll get ODI or Lions but that's about it. Glamorgan have a couple of very good young spinners who are getting game time and are playing some Aussie grade cricket this winter to continue their development but you can guarantee they won't be getting a look in unless they move to a more fashionable county.

Bang on. Look at James hildreth, consistently scored runs at county level, good player of spin and completely overlooked. Selectors arrogantly dismissing his runs because he plays at Taunton
Same for trego in one dayers

 

[hodge]

Hildreth definitely Trego....... maybe, think Hildreth has been highest run scorer in county cricket in a season 2 or 3 times as well. Ah well England's loss, Somerset's gain.

 

[Aber gas]

Neither was Buttler when he first got the gloves. Tough pitch to keep on too given the turn. Not really sure what an 'international keeper' is either cos I can count the amount of good wicketkeepers in the world on one hand, so he probably is as that bar is very low.

So we can give Bairstow the benefit of the doubt due to his inexperience but not rashid? Seems fair.

 

[hodge]

Rashid's got to be given a stint, the lad has so much potential.

 

[Baz]

Bang on. Look at James hildreth, consistently scored runs at county level, good player of spin and completely overlooked. Selectors arrogantly dismissing his runs because he plays at Taunton
Same for trego in one dayers

Not to mention Allenby who was superb for us, then thought a move to Taunton would help him

 

[RavenBish]

So we can give Bairstow the benefit of the doubt due to his inexperience but not rashid? Seems fair.

Bairstow isn't as bad a wicket-keeper/batsman as Rashid is a leg-spinner so that's a very silly point.

 

[Saddlerrad]

It seems the issue for test sides playing poorly away from home is carrying on around the world.

The Aussies were 580-4 odd declared and then the Aussies took 4 wickets in the last 5 overs of play to leave NZ 150-5. Meanwhile, India are playing South Africa in Mohali. Both sides made roughly 200 on the head in the first innings, but India are 125-2 odd in the second innings with Morkel missing for SA and now Steyn going down with a groin strain in the second innings and unable to bowl. Wickets spinning too.

 

[Super_horns]

Warner and Burns really giving the Kiwi bowlers a right hammering.

Partnership of well over 200 already..

India looking like they will gain a lead against South Africa with the tourists 32-4 chasing 218.

 

[Bobbin']

Bairstow isn't as bad a wicket-keeper/batsman as Rashid is a leg-spinner so that's a very silly point.

This a new position?

 

[Baz]

This a new position?

Why not we have deep things so why not very things?

 

[Super_horns]

So the ODI series starts today - can we repeat the win over Pakistan in 2012 and gain some revenge for the test series?

England have won the toss and decided to bat first..

 

[Saddlerrad]

Roy bowled second ball of the innings by a beauty from Irfan.

England 0-1.

 

[Saddlerrad]

Root out LBW on review.

England 7-2 after 1.5 Overs.

 

[Saddlerrad]

Hales caught behind, 14-3.

Big trouble now.

 

[Baz]

Stuggle....rebuild.....struggle constant theme going on.

 

[Pyeman]

What? England collapsed? Well I am surprised.

 

[RavenBish]

Seems to be a weird amount of outrage surrounding this innings, not entirely sure why. They've put out a team of sloggers and it was never going to work on these pitches. It doesn't undo all the work in the summer or make anyone crap. I've got a bigger issue with David fucking Willey batting at 10 - what's this obsession with filling the ODI side with all-rounders?

Unless the pitch has some voodoo or Pakistan bat terribly, they should knock these runs off easily and it might end up being just as much about the bowlers as the batsmen, that doesn't fit the narrative though I suspect.

on a separate note, get Jos Buttler the fuck away from this England side - forget the fact he's shite and a walking wicket, it's not doing him any good either now.

Big picture issue for me, rather than tedious 'omg middle order collapse classic England, openers are shit' insight. Is that English counties really need to do their bit to produce more varied pitches, county cricketers just aren't fully equipped to be introduced into the side in these subcontinent pitches because they're not used to the lack of pace. It helps the batsmen and a your bowlers won't be 6'3 clones who bowl 90mph with no variation to their game.

 

[Pyeman]

Seems to be a weird amount of outrage surrounding this innings, not entirely sure why. They've put out a team of sloggers and it was never going to work on these pitches. It doesn't undo all the work in the summer or make anyone crap. I've got a bigger issue with David fucking Willey batting at 10 - what's this obsession with filling the ODI side with all-rounders?

Unless the pitch has some voodoo or Pakistan bat terribly, they should knock these runs off easily and it might end up being just as much about the bowlers as the batsmen, that doesn't fit the narrative though I suspect.

on a separate note, get Jos Buttler the fuck away from this England side - forget the fact he's shite and a walking wicket, it's not doing him any good either now.

Big picture issue for me, rather than tedious 'omg middle order collapse classic England, openers are shit' insight. Is that English counties really need to do their bit to produce more varied pitches, county cricketers just aren't fully equipped to be introduced into the side in these subcontinent pitches because they're not used to the lack of pace. It helps the batsmen and a your bowlers won't be 6'3 clones who bowl 90mph with no variation to their game.

You're absolutely right about the state of county cricket, and how we don't give ourselves a chance to be successful in these conditions because our players don't experience them often enough.

However, I think you're being overly dismissive of the issues we face in our batting line-up. The opening slot has been a huge problem for a long time now, even before we reached the UAE. The middle order collapse is something that is becoming far too common and is undeniably a problem, albeit one that is far more common in test cricket than ODIs. Yes people talk about these issues a lot, but that's because they're such big problems.

 

[Baz]

In fairness there are 3/4 wickets that usually offer a fair bit for spinners, that's at Glamorgan and Northants for sure but Hampshire offer up some right turning wickets at times too. However I do agree it's the same old same old with regards to pitches usually and the fact many of these youngsters don't get to experience the variety of pitches. Give us a green pitch we'll beat anyone but a spinning wicket we struggle awfully.

 

[RavenBish]

Good adjustment from Roy and Hales, neither have had much/any exposure to subcontinent conditions so it's good to see them adapt their game so quickly. Both are far too talented to be dropped, that and the fact there's not really anyone to replace them with (waits for the inevitable Carberry suggestion, who will still be getting suggested when he's 55)

 

[Bobbin']

Another good innings from Buttler in the format he is supposed to excel at.