The Labour Thread

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I reckon people would change their tune about freedom of movement fairly quickly were it actually implemented. It would go beyond the screwed job market and cultural impact, we simply wouldn't even be able to build quickly enough to accommodate it.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

I have no problem with freedom of movement but why should it be only between countries in an artificial EU block ? It's racist in itself to give free entry to people from for example Poland but not to people from for example Bangladesh .

It shouldn't be and yes, it is racist.

 

[Aber gas]

I reckon people would change their tune about freedom of movement fairly quickly were it actually implemented. It would go beyond the screwed job market and cultural impact, we simply wouldn't even be able to build quickly enough to accommodate it.

Let's not do this .

 

[Alty]

It shouldn't be and yes, it is racist.

Oh fuck off.

 

[Aber gas]

Oh fuck off.

That's not very nice

 

[Alty]

That's not very nice

It was a bit childish as well. It's just exasperation with everything and everyone being described as racist.

 

[nousername]

Completely anecdotal interlude here, but having lived in various countries over the past years and visited many more, I would consider Britain to be a fairly liberal and enlightened country. It's not perfect of course, but that we have so many people moving here, or wanting to move here, would suggest it's a fairly welcoming, tolerant place. Although I think most of us already know that.

Reading Ian say that Britain is a racist shit-hole just leaves me... mystified. Is there any country you would hold up as an ideal standard for race-relations, immigration etc. Ian?

 

[HertsWolf]

Completely anecdotal interlude here, but having lived in various countries over the past years and visited many more, I would consider Britain to be a fairly liberal and enlightened country. It's not perfect of course, but that we have so many people moving here, or wanting to move here, would suggest it's a fairly welcoming, tolerant place. Although I think most of us already know that.

Reading Ian say that Britain is a racist shit-hole just leaves me... mystified. Is there any country you would hold up as an ideal standard for race-relations, immigration etc. Ian?

See your own avatar for possible response.

 

[HertsWolf]

I reckon people would change their tune about freedom of movement fairly quickly were it actually implemented. It would go beyond the screwed job market and cultural impact, we simply wouldn't even be able to build quickly enough to accommodate it.

You're really quite good at arcane generalised political sound-bite summaries, aren't you?
It's going well beyond reasonable informed opinion when you switch from popping out your own views to now telling people what **their** views will be.

How about we turn this round?
"I reckon people would change their mind about freedom of movement were it actually implemented. It would go beyond the massive economic advantage of a considerably larger workforce and cultural impact, we simply wouldn't be able to hold back the financial impetus."

There. As completely inane, unprovable and, with all due respect, witless as your statement.

 

[HertsWolf]

I have no problem with freedom of movement but why should it be only between countries in an artificial EU block ? It's racist in itself to give free entry to people from for example Poland but not to people from for example Bangladesh .

Yes and no.....
I feel that national borders and nationalism have contributed more to wars and economic resource shortages than religion has. Even many of the religious wars were simply nationalistic wars dressed up as religion in order to force the wealthy to become less wealthy by contributing funds for the war effort.

The rich North has benefitted from the natural (animal, vegetable and mineral) resources for many centuries leaving little for current populations over much of the planet. You don't have to read far to see that the administrative systems left behind in most former colonies have tended to support and foster corruption, mismanagement and the rise of greedy urban elites and big-man politics. Current younger generations may puzzle over the imbalance but our father, grandfathers and ancestors in the North gave our current economies a huge boost based on what should always have been shared. The lack of proper and robust land title across much of Africa, Asia, and South and Central America continues to favour the 'haves' at the ridiculous expense of the 'have-nots'. Those who don't believe this should perhaps read Jared Diamond's excellent series of books that explain a lot of the imbalance and also explain why temperate climates have also provided a natural unfair advantage to us.

So I do not like borders and the structure of borders: they are archaic and serve only to reinforce reasons for hating other people. However, perhaps much to the surprise of some in this forum, I don't advocate an immediate lifting of borders and having a movement free for all. I think we need to move to a global solution that manages pressing and developing population, environmental, social and health crises. The rich North have had it too good for too long. Over time, migration will balance out, with people starting to move the other way.

As for whether it's racist or not, I think it is perhaps more that historical and prehistorical reasons have created economic and trading blocks physically close to each other and people in close geographical proximity have tended to be somewhat similar. One could equally argue that all other non-EU countries are even more 'racist' because they don't allow free movement into their countries. In fact, many European countries, the UK included, have long welcomed large numbers of people from all over the world, regardless of ethnicity.

 

[HertsWolf]

That's an absurd false equivalence though and you surely know that. The two are not even remotely similar in their respective democratic deficits.

It's patently not absurd and you must surely know that.
Many would argue that EU elections are far more representative than first-past-the-post. Saying they are not even 'remotely similar in their respective democratic deficits' doesn't even make sense. You must surely know that.
I have also long learnt that you saying something, doesn't actually make it so.

 

[TheMinsterman]

I don't think we'll ever be able to lift borders and form a true global community, we are innately a species that has biological and evolutionary roots in living in groups which protect one another's interests against outsiders. Of course, you'd hope we can shed these sort of base "urges", but it was obviously beneficial at some stage. I may be completely wrong of course.

 

[HertsWolf]

Me too. Such is my pessimism about and hatred of Britain, I fear what would replace it.

Regardless of my snide response to someone else this morning, I do agree with him that there are few places as liberal and enlightened as the UK.
I get hugely frustrated with middle England, but after living and working in 9 other countries (6 outside Europe, 2 in Africa) for 22 years and working in more than 35 other countries, I feel there are few places as benevolent as the UK.
It is difficult to overestimate the scope and nature of our freedoms and our way of life. Of course, I am British so it's in my DNA, but I still think it's tough to find anywhere better.
It's helpful to regularly remind myself that Britain is **not** politicians, newspaper editors, Kuntie Hopkins, Keith Lemmon, Russell Brand, other E-listers, nor a small number of chavs found in every neighbourhood and car-park.
It is in danger of becoming head-down, Facebook-updating, but fortunately Britain is still tolerant, generous, welcoming, slightly reserved, stiff upper lip, a little bit politically unPC.

 

[Habbinalan]

I was hoping that we had copyrighted the "Jezolution"

But a quick google confirmed that a few were there before us.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You're really quite good at arcane generalised political sound-bite summaries, aren't you?
It's going well beyond reasonable informed opinion when you switch from popping out your own views to now telling people what **their** views will be.

How about we turn this round?
"I reckon people would change their mind about freedom of movement were it actually implemented. It would go beyond the massive economic advantage of a considerably larger workforce and cultural impact, we simply wouldn't be able to hold back the financial impetus."

There. As completely inane, unprovable and, with all due respect, witless as your statement.

The politics section would be rather bare and boring if we were to disqualify all unprovable predictions. I'm not quite sure where you get inane and witless from though, it's not difficult to observe how much we struggle with the unlimited EU migration we have, and imagine how much worse it would be were it expanded to the entire globe, third world and all. You will struggle to find any example of mass immigration throughout history that has ever worked out well for the native population, especially the poor.

It's patently not absurd and you must surely know that.
Many would argue that EU elections are far more representative than first-past-the-post. Saying they are not even 'remotely similar in their respective democratic deficits' doesn't even make sense. You must surely know that.

It doesn't really matter how representative the elections are, given that the people who actually draft and propose all EU law are unelected officials. All the MEPs do is get to vote on what they're handed by the bureaucrats. You could argue that the House of Lords presents the same obstacle in theory, but only in theory.

 

[HertsWolf]

It doesn't really matter how representative the elections are, given that the people who actually draft and propose all EU law are unelected officials. All the MEPs do is get to vote on what they're handed by the bureaucrats. You could argue that the House of Lords presents the same obstacle in theory, but only in theory.

Most UK law is drafted in party HQ and by civil servants. MPs largely toe the party line. Many have to have the law and its meaning explained to them. Read the biography or autobiography of pretty much any MP or minister.

EU law isn't any more transparent, nor is it any less transparent. EU officials are demonstrably as inclusive and as helpful as UK (or US officials) and reach out to a wide selection of society.

 

[Habbinalan]

.......It doesn't really matter how representative the elections are, given that the people who actually draft and propose all EU law are unelected officials. All the MEPs do is get to vote on what they're handed by the bureaucrats. You could argue that the House of Lords presents the same obstacle in theory, but only in theory.

I think you'll find that all UK Law is also drafted and proposed by UK civil service bureaucrats, at various stages in my career I've tried to influence both sets of public employees. I agree that the MEPs are more removed from the process than our own MPs and select committees but It's the (elected) governments and ministers that have put the commissioners forward and want to keep the power away from the European Parliament - rightly so at the moment as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The difference is an MP or political party in the UK can actually be held to account. We have no real recourse when the EU fucks us over.

 

[Habbinalan]

The difference is an MP or political party in the UK can actually be held to account. We have no real recourse when the EU fucks us over.

Welcome to the experience of democracy for a disenfranchised minority. You have a vote and the "government," of whatever party, can ignore your opinion.

 

[HertsWolf]

I think you'll find that all UK Law is also drafted and proposed by UK civil service bureaucrats, at various stages in my career I've tried to influence both sets of public employees. I agree that the MEPs are more removed from the process than our own MPs and select committees but It's the (elected) governments and ministers that have put the commissioners forward and want to keep the power away from the European Parliament - rightly so at the moment as far as I'm concerned.

While not disagreeing that MEPs tend to be removed from the drafting of laws, this is largely because they choose to be so. Ask any of the more diligent, hands-on MPs and you will discover that the opportunities for getting involved are encouraged and limitless.
Then go and ask your MEPs how much they personally get involved. If constituents don't hold them to account, that is not the fault of the rest of Europe.

 

[HertsWolf]

The difference is an MP or political party in the UK can actually be held to account. We have no real recourse when the EU fucks us over.

You do realise you have an MEP, don't you? Or did that unhelpful fact pass you by while you were creating "fucked over" soundbites?

 

[HertsWolf]

The difference is an MP or political party in the UK can actually be held to account. We have no real recourse when the EU fucks us over.

I am guessing you are now understanding how Scotland, Wales, the North, Wolverhampton, Corby, black people, Asians, the young, the poor, the elderly, etc feel when UK laws and 'the system' favours others, or the majority or just "somewhere else".

The quality of democracy depends a lot on how much your elected representatives feel they need to represent the people who didn't vote for them. Hold them responsible and accountable and they will work for you. The greater good sometimes requires both give as well as take.

I don't see that the UK is in a bad position as a result of either EU membership. I guessed you've been 'fucked over' more than I have.

 

[rudebwoyben]

All those people who elected UKIP MEPs didn't really think that through (or didn't care to).

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You do realise you have an MEP, don't you? Or did that unhelpful fact pass you by while you were creating "fucked over" soundbites?

What's your point? MEPs don't draft or propose legislation, but political parties back home do. As far as that goes the former often have nothing to be held over account over, as they didn't have a say in the first place.

I am guessing you are now understanding how Scotland, Wales, the North, Wolverhampton, Corby, black people, Asians, the young, the poor, the elderly, etc feel when UK laws and 'the system' favours others, or the majority or just "somewhere else".

I already understood the position they were in, I support devolution and an STV voting system. The point of contention however wasn't that the UK was particularly democratic, only that it is patently more democratic than the EU is. The idea that 28 unelected bureaucrats are going to represent every minority in the UK (and every other EU country) in the laws they propose better than their local elected officials and respective political parties would is absolutely bonkers.

 

[HertsWolf]

To be fair, I don't think anyone really thinks much about how the EU works. You would think that given how much influence it has on peoples' lives that we would demand to know what our representatives (of any flavour) are doing. Sadly, the MEPs get the back up of their political machinery so can easily deflect criticism and debate.

We get the governments we deserve.

 

[blade1889]

.

How about we turn this round?
"I reckon people would change their mind about freedom of movement were it actually implemented. It would go beyond the massive economic advantage of a considerably larger workforce and cultural impact, we simply wouldn't be able to hold back the financial impetus."

.

Sorry if you've answered this already...I lost track of the thread.

I think I'm right in saying you're a Corbyn supporter? Earlier the EU was mentioned and how Corbyn is an EU-sceptic. One of the reasons for (true) left-wingers being such was that it allows increased migration which drives down workers costs thus benefiting the rich-men and disadvantaging the working class. Surely your suggestion of opening up our borders to an even larger workforce would only compound this issue?

^^^I think that's partly the debate you're having now

Also how would you see a global economy/lifting of borders work? There would still need to be a government and as we've seen with just the distance from Germany to Greece countries are very different and forcing them into a global entity under the same rule wont work...

 

[HertsWolf]

What's your point?

You effectively said that only UK parliament is accountable and that the EU parliament is not.
I responded by pointing out that there are elected representatives present in both institutions and that the processes are broadly similar and reflect similar levels of transparency and democracy. That was my point.

MEPs don't draft or propose legislation, but political parties back home do. As far as that goes the former often have nothing to be held over account over, they didn't have a say in the first place.

MEPs do drafts and propose legislation. The process is demonstrably similar to the process in the UK.
MPs in the UK draft and propose legislation developed by their political parties with the input of civil servants.

The point of contention however wasn't that the UK was particularly democratic, only that it is patently more democratic than the EU is.

Patently it is not more democratic. How is first-past-the-post more democratic?

The idea that 28 unelected bureaucrats are going to represent every minority in the UK (and every other EU country) in the laws they propose better than their local elected officials and respective political parties would is absolutely bonkers.

Oh boy. The "bonkers" argument, based on a Daily Mail perspective of the world. Wonderful.
You are referring to the 28 EU Commissioners who are appointed by the elected EU Parliament )in the same way that a Permanent Secretary is appointed) and they can propose legislation which is then debated by both national governments and elected MEPs, who can approve or reject or modify as they see fit.
It's slightly different from the democratic process in the UK and has its flaws but then so has the UK system (even before including the House of Lords), but is constantly adapting and evolving.

 

[HertsWolf]

Sorry if you've answered this already...I lost track of the thread.

I think I'm right in saying you're a Corbyn supporter? Earlier the EU was mentioned and how Corbyn is an EU-sceptic. One of the reasons for (true) left-wingers being such was that it allows increased migration which drives down workers costs thus benefiting the rich-men and disadvantaging the working class. Surely your suggestion of opening up our borders to an even larger workforce would only compound this issue?

Actually I'm not a Corbyn supporter at all. I hold most politicians in fairly equal contempt. I don't care who the Labour Party elect as their leader.
It would appear he has been a union official or a politician his entire adult life (see his Wikipedia article), so he's no less a career politician than Boris Johnson or Call Me Dave. I admit I do admire the work he has done against apartheid and on behalf of those who have been wrongfully imprisoned in the past.

It's been known for a long time that the extreme right and the extreme left hold similar views for entirely different reasons.
The argument that increased migration would impact on working class jobs has been shown to be simplistic. While the studies (I linked to a few in this or another thread recently) do show some short-term impacts, the reality is that beyond that, increased migration is beneficial for everyone. Remember that especially when entire families are locating to a country, there is less of a remittance economy and these new arrivals are buying and selling in the same market-place. We took in 55,000 Asian migrants expelled or fleeing Uganda in 1972; their contribution to this country is lasting, positive and enriches us all.

 

[Red]

Well, he's trying to be inclusive is Jezza. He's appointed my Blairite MP Toby Perkins to the cabinet.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I'm sure they're making some of these shadow cabinet posts up.

Shadow Secretary for Disabled People
Shadow Secretary for Women and Equalities
Shadow Secretary for Cheese